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Advanced Audio Settings Changes

First post
Author
Darius Caliente
The Pinecone Squad
United Federation of Conifers
#261 - 2017-05-21 18:28:35 UTC
Following up on my last post:

Here's a prime example of sounds I care about mixed with annoying sounds:

Hacking game sounds are fun, they add an element to the hacking game that makes it more enjoyable to play.
The D-Scan noise, UI Clicks, Radial Menu all have sounds associated with it. These things are audible feedback, not game audio. You also get the noise when a can is too far away to open immediately a nice to have but ultimately still audible feedback.

All Audible feedback should be moved to it's own category. So that we can have quality of game improvements like the hacking game sounds without having to hear useless noise every time we click. Leave the audible feedback for people who want it and create a slider just for it.
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#262 - 2017-05-22 00:41:35 UTC
I would also like to be able to remove warping sounds from third party warps as well as ship Sounds...

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please

Felyx Ravencroft
#263 - 2017-05-22 01:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Felyx Ravencroft
Darius Caliente wrote:

All Audible feedback should be moved to it's own category. So that we can have quality of game improvements like the hacking game sounds without having to hear useless noise every time we click. Leave the audible feedback for people who want it and create a slider just for it.


Unfortunately, this is a perfect example of a misconception being perpetuated on both sides of the argument. The solution is NOT to define/redefine sets of sounds to be grouped together or separated out of their existing categories - everyone has a different notion of what constitutes a useful sound, and what is superfluous or even downright annoying. Thus, there are nearly infinite combinations of desired and undesired effects, and any generalised set of groupings will satisfy a few and likely annoy the majority. Yes, there are some sounds that most people agree are unnecessary, but there is likely not universal agreement on anything, and certainly different players have different priorities: some may not be overly bothered by the UI clicks but need their wormhole soundscape *just so*, while some are driven nuts by the UI click and couldn't care less about the wormhole sounds; many players find the station ambience annoying, but I'm sure there are players out there who enjoy it,. These examples used are among the most-cited, and yet even they CONTRADICT EACH OTHER.

The solution is really very simple and downright obvious: revert to the excellent granular settings options we had before - this approach is the one that's likeliest to satisfy the most users (and really can't REASONABLY annoy or offend anyone! After all: don't need it, then don't use it - simple as that!) Surely "the greatest good for the greatest number" ought to be the primary guiding principle? Hell, it even falls in line with the "80/20" principle cited by someone waaaaay upthread.

EDIT:
Clarification: My contention is that the problem lies not in HOW the sounds have been grouped, but in the fact that they have been grouped together AT ALL. Some of the many arguing against this change are (understandably) invested in their own perspective: "I want [this specific thing] to be individually adjustable" and "I don't want [that specific thing] to be grouped in with these others" etc - but this is a distraction from the larger issue, and yet a perfect demonstration of it. Redefining the groupings would not solve anything, it would merely serve to shift the dirt around, instead of solving the problem (which, as already stated by many people here, is doable by simply undoing this very poor design decision.) The bottom line is that we all have our own personal SPECIFIC preferences, and the power to adjust these specifics should be returned to us - trying to beat them into sets of presets is doomed to fail from the start, and will NEVER satisfy anyone fully (except those who don't care either way in the first place!) Those who have no need of this facility are NOT AN ISSUE - they don't have to mess with it if they don't want to!

In the original announcement, one of the "arguments" given for the change was the fact (allegedly, anyhow) that even out of the few that did use the advanced settings (will not go into the fallacy of that metric - that's already been covered by many others here), most used only one or two sliders. This was cited as a problem - TOTAL logic failure there, CCP! The fact that only a couple/few sliders were being used at a time is in fact testament to the USEFULNESS of the old system - it allowed us to target those individual sounds that needed special attention, without involving anything else. The new "system" (I use the term very loosely!) forces us to **** with **** we are happy with in order to adjust that which we are not happy with - I'm sorry, but that's just sheer idiocy. (I know that whereas I was satisfied with my sound config before the change, despite laborious tweaking I have as yet been unable to even APPROXIMATE a comfortable soundscape since then - and this is not for lack of trying! Your "simplification" has COMPLICATED MATTERS!)

One final thought: the change represents a marked REDUCTION IN THE QUALITY of the overall experience for some (perhaps many?) of us. CCP, can you seriously be OK with retaining a change that has compromised the overall quality of your product, making it LESS than it was before? How is that a good idea from ANY standpoint, be it fiscal, marketing, or simply sheer pride of craftmanship?
Oraac Ensor
#264 - 2017-05-22 02:27:35 UTC
Gunner GzR wrote:
I would also like to be able to remove warping sounds from third party warps as well as ship Sounds...

A perfect example of what Felyx is talking about.

To many of us the 3rd party warp sound is absolutely essential and is nowhere near loud enough at its standard setting.
Aen Clarke
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#265 - 2017-05-22 07:34:31 UTC
I have no idea how the new audio changes is more advanced. Like everybody else already have said.
Can you please take it back so i can make the d'scan sound QUIET for a times change?
Umbra Mirage
#266 - 2017-05-22 08:49:16 UTC
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
Thanks everyone for adding your voices here. Hopefully you'll have more to add after the update goes live.

I've shared this link directly with the director, but I am also counting mentions of specific pain points to "weight" the responses, so the more direct/clear you are with your comments, the better.

Since you're in contact with the audio director and hopefully the people that work together with him then i'm hoping you can get this message to the audio team.

From what i've read of the last 14 pages I think a lot of people want the Advanced Audio settings back.

I want the Advanced Audio setting back BUT not the way they were. I think there is a opportunity here to make them more nuanced.

When i started playing i wanted to change the Advanced Audio setting but when i went to adjust them I didn't have any context to what sound setting affects what.

My suggestion is this bring back the Advanced Audio Settings and Sounds but give them their own sections that are collapsible, scrollable so there is room for expansion, and each setting should have a tool tip that states what sound it changes so players are made aware of what it does.

I've taken the old sounds sliders mentioned on post #1 and put them into categories; they would still need tool tips saying what they all do. Just as a clarification to what i mean by tool tip If you look at the video settings when you have your mouse pointer hovering over each video setting you get a tool tip saying what that video setting does.


Ship Sounds
-------------------
Turret volume
Impacts  (is this Weapons impact? because if this what it means then it's very vague and doesn't suggest what it's for)
Ship Modules
Ship Ambience
Ship Damage Warnings
Warping Effect
Engine.MWD.AB

Scanning [Note any sounds from the new D-scan and scanning interface should be put into here]
-------------
Hacking

Environmental Effects
--------------------------
Station Exterior
Station Interior
Stargates
Wormholes
Jump Activation
Explosions 
3rd Party warp
Planets

User Interface Effects
------------------------------
Aura
Map and Ship Tree Volume
Crimewatch [maybe this should be put into the Warning Sounds section?]
Locking
EVE store
UI Click  [What does UI Click even mean ?]
Radial Menu
UI Interaction


Warning Sounds
------------------------
Shield Warning -> Warning Sounds
Hull Warning -> Warning Sounds
Cap Warning -> Warning Sounds

Music
---------
Music Dungeons -> (Music Level)
Music General -> (Music Level)


As far as people getting tired of the music because they've heard it so often maybe some kind of eve playlist customization or randomization for the music should be looked into for those that want more variety. I myself currently enjoy the music but i wouldn't mind some kind of option to change it when one feels like it.

If anything needs clarification let me know.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#267 - 2017-05-22 09:24:49 UTC
Umbra Mirage wrote:
As far as people getting tired of the music because they've heard it so often maybe some kind of eve playlist customization or randomization for the music should be looked into for those that want more variety. I myself currently enjoy the music but i wouldn't mind some kind of option to change it when one feels like it.

EVE used to have a jukebox until CCP ripped it out. I don't think it's coming back.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Felyx Ravencroft
#268 - 2017-05-22 11:10:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Felyx Ravencroft
Umbra Mirage wrote:

I want the Advanced Audio setting back BUT not the way they were. I think there is a opportunity here to make them more nuanced.
...
My suggestion is this bring back the Advanced Audio Settings and Sounds but give them their own sections that are collapsible, scrollable so there is room for expansion, and each setting should have a tool tip that states what sound it changes so players are made aware of what it does.


To me, this sounds (pardon the pun) like a pretty good idea.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2017-05-22 18:31:56 UTC
Umbra Mirage wrote:
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
Thanks everyone for adding your voices here. Hopefully you'll have more to add after the update goes live.

I've shared this link directly with the director, but I am also counting mentions of specific pain points to "weight" the responses, so the more direct/clear you are with your comments, the better.

Since you're in contact with the audio director and hopefully the people that work together with him then i'm hoping you can get this message to the audio team.

From what i've read of the last 14 pages I think a lot of people want the Advanced Audio settings back.

I want the Advanced Audio setting back BUT not the way they were. I think there is a opportunity here to make them more nuanced.

When i started playing i wanted to change the Advanced Audio setting but when i went to adjust them I didn't have any context to what sound setting affects what.

My suggestion is this bring back the Advanced Audio Settings and Sounds but give them their own sections that are collapsible, scrollable so there is room for expansion, and each setting should have a tool tip that states what sound it changes so players are made aware of what it does.

I've taken the old sounds sliders mentioned on post #1 and put them into categories; they would still need tool tips saying what they all do. Just as a clarification to what i mean by tool tip If you look at the video settings when you have your mouse pointer hovering over each video setting you get a tool tip saying what that video setting does.


Ship Sounds
-------------------
Turret volume
Impacts  (is this Weapons impact? because if this what it means then it's very vague and doesn't suggest what it's for)
Ship Modules
Ship Ambience
Ship Damage Warnings
Warping Effect
Engine.MWD.AB

Scanning [Note any sounds from the new D-scan and scanning interface should be put into here]
-------------
Hacking

Environmental Effects
--------------------------
Station Exterior
Station Interior
Stargates
Wormholes
Jump Activation
Explosions 
3rd Party warp
Planets

User Interface Effects
------------------------------
Aura
Map and Ship Tree Volume
Crimewatch [maybe this should be put into the Warning Sounds section?]
Locking
EVE store
UI Click  [What does UI Click even mean ?]
Radial Menu
UI Interaction


Warning Sounds
------------------------
Shield Warning -> Warning Sounds
Hull Warning -> Warning Sounds
Cap Warning -> Warning Sounds

Music
---------
Music Dungeons -> (Music Level)
Music General -> (Music Level)


As far as people getting tired of the music because they've heard it so often maybe some kind of eve playlist customization or randomization for the music should be looked into for those that want more variety. I myself currently enjoy the music but i wouldn't mind some kind of option to change it when one feels like it.

If anything needs clarification let me know.



I could also live with them putting all the sound files in a directory (well labelled) so that we can use third party tools to change the level of each file (or even remove them). That way we get flexibility that we need and CCP gets to be happy for saving dev resources.
Arline Kley
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#270 - 2017-05-23 11:30:07 UTC
I know i'm a bit out of it here, but forgive me. RL does tend to get in the way:
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
After today's (16/05/2017) patch, there will be no further alterations to the Advanced Audio Settings in the current release.

To quote one William Tuner, Blacksmith: Thats not good enough.

I am all for CCP making changes. This is another change that was not needed, nor desired. When you have been informed that such is not a useful change, you trot out the "Only 9%" figure, using it as a rather poor excuse to remove a perfectly functional system. And before you go "For ease of new users" as another answer, I shall say: No, not it wouldn't affect them at all.

I get that you want to save dev time and resources, but sometimes.. just sometimes you have to put the man-pants on and just do it. Absorb that dev time to working on it, to making it a better system overall. With the current "advanced" systems it feels like its some poor attempt at mashing similar sounding sounds together, with little to no option for actual choice of sound.

You'll now have figures stating that the uptake is greater under the new system than the old, which will be a gerrymandered figure since you did't give people a choice before you changed it, unlike most of the other options (e.g. the new map)..It also makes me concerned at that the actual dev time supporting vs. dev time developing a new system in man hours - i'm genuinely curious if this has actually saved anytime what so ever.

But hopefully you rethink this full stop to any reversal (even partial) at a later release, because I am getting rather sick and tired at some of the development choices and ideas as of late, especially when they go against ALL the information that you get.

"For it was said they had become like those peculiar demons, which dwell in matter but in whom no light may be found." - Father Grigori, Ravens 3:57

Cassiel Seraphim
EVE University
Ivy League
#271 - 2017-05-23 21:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cassiel Seraphim
Having played around with it for a fair bit, so this is not just complaints about something new and untested ... I've found the following sounds sorely missing their own category.

Wormholes (currently in the Atmosphere group)
Crimewatch (currently in the UI Sound Level group)

I can live with the other bundles, sort of, but I need them split and controlled separated from their respective groups.
Uthgaard
Because ISK
#272 - 2017-05-23 22:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
CCP Antiquarian wrote:
Audio has looked over the feedback and has decided to hold off on additional changes for the continuing rework of settings.

After today's (16/05/2017) patch, there will be no further alterations to the Advanced Audio Settings in the current release.


So in spite of universally negative feedback, you've still not reversed a change that ruined the viability of your advanced PVP content, for no reason beyond wishing more people would slide your knobs.

If you're just aiming for simplicity, you can nest the older options beneath the current ones. Then, you gain simplicity without losing function, and most importantly, without removing them entirely.

But claiming that it's hard to add new content with so many sliders only shows that you don't understand how to use Wwise properly, and need to review their tutorial on soundbanks. You already did the hard part, so It's literally drag and drop.

ShockedTHIS IS REALLY BASIC DEV STUFF.Shocked

Language channels, old aura, advanced audio, bloated unresponsive UI and more - you keep making one bad decision after another, and then completely disregarding long-term-player feedback each time.

Are you trying to kill your game? Because this is how you kill a game.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#273 - 2017-05-26 05:28:31 UTC
At least we are getting ignored so there is that. Classic CCP. Make a mess and then pretend not to see it all and hope that idiots will keep sending you money.

It's going to be hilarious when first competition shows up one day.
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#274 - 2017-05-26 14:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
They said they aren't making anymore changes this release. We'll have to wait to see what they come back with, they've taken our feedback and hopefully they'll have something viable in release on SISI to test before the next major patch.

We know they aren't going flat our roll it back, they never do unless its a completely game breaking feature change. As much as everyone wants to have it back.

For iterative testing I get why they did what they did, do I agree is was a right change for the player base? No, in fact I just wish we'd get the option to put things back to normal, but from a perspective of daily testing, I get it.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Uthgaard
Because ISK
#275 - 2017-05-26 15:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Uthgaard
Dominous Nolen wrote:
but ... I get it.


Do you? I can tell you exactly how it went down (read in lost vikings voice for greater accuracy)



Quote:
Exec 1: People aren't subscribing to our game!

Exec 2: It must be because our UI is too unfriendly!

Exec 1: How can we make it more friendly?

Exec 2: Remove ALL THE OPTIONS!

Dev: I've removed all the options that only 10% of our players use because I don't understand design fundamentals. That 10% has now been biomassed into skill injectors and left the game. 100% of the players still hate the UI.

Exec 1 & 2: Our decisions are bad, and we should feel bad!


Without a successful game as an experimental control, our hapless trio succumbed to the trap of misinterpreting statistics. 10% is above average usage for advanced sound options, particularly after correcting for:

  1. The one trick pony alts/bots.
  2. The players who don't PVP.
  3. The players who have the sound disabled entirely.


Consequently, CCP podded the advanced options (which provided a critical level of functionality for their most avid PVPers) while the true threat - the unwieldy HUD - warped away unscathed.
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#276 - 2017-05-26 18:56:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
CCP Baldar - Can you please confirm if we are going to get some more controls restored on the release coming out in the next few weeks?

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood

Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#277 - 2017-06-03 20:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malice Redeemer
Really bad change


My god, I can not disable the crimewatch buzzer? I can't play like this, are you kidding me?


Find all the whiteboards that say you need less options and erase, fire the people that wrote that there.
Callidus Dux
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#278 - 2017-06-05 10:15:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Callidus Dux
Bad job CCP!
I personally absolutely HATE the Locking sound. Why such a noisy sound when I sit in a BS and lock Frigates?
So ... And now I have to mute the UI-Sound Level. But wait! I will also kill the useful Alert-sound for Shield, Armor & Hull, Cap etc. ... !

Please try to explain how this is a benefit compared to the old sound system? Especially that you already HAVE Implemented the feature to deactivate the locking sound (and many others as individual category). But only for "Inactive Clients".

Really.. who was the genius with this idea? Evil

Locking sound is worst sound ever. Bring the option to completely kill this dumb sound during locking a frigate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group
#279 - 2017-06-06 01:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Malice Redeemer
I will not play without the audio alerts, I will not play with the crimewatch buzzer going off every 5-10 seconds.

Are these changes going to be fixed?
Dominous Nolen
Anomalous Existence
Spatial Instability
#280 - 2017-06-06 17:06:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dominous Nolen
Malice Redeemer wrote:
I will not play without the audio alerts, I will not play with the crimewatch buzzer going off every 5-10 seconds.

Are these changes going to be fixed?


They said They've been taking feedback from is so far, however we haven't had official confirmation of upcoming changes..

Right now check SISI for build updates, aside from that we're waiting on ccp to confirm

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood