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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A short announcement related to TD involvement in Kyonoke attacks.
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Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#61 - 2017-05-06 09:28:33 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Jason Galente wrote:
Your inexplicable lack of knowledge on this legal subject does not make that any less the case.


Oh, there's nothing inexplicable about it: She's a terrorist.

A wannabe, perhaps, rather than an active one. But she's sure as hell drinking from their water cooler.

Oh, another liar popped his head out just to slander Caldari officers.

Enemies of the State are truly pathetic when all they could do is this.


Obviously, I am not interested in terrorism - saying that for those who could be intrigued by words of this empty blabber. They are just running their long tongues with empty heads against me.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Lasairiona Raske
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#62 - 2017-05-06 09:55:12 UTC
Popcorn, anyone?

Are you a devil or an angel

Sent here from heaven or from hell?

Sweet temptress, I'm wrapped in your tangles

Can't find my way out of your spell
Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2017-05-06 12:47:00 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I find it interesting that he keeps talking about "Civilized Society", and i just wonder where the hell does one exist. Or did exist. In all recorded history. And unrecorded.

Everyone gets their hands dirty. Some only outsource it.

It doesn´t make you any cleaner. Nor civilized.


In the Empire, of course! We are all here are terribly civilized.

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Bran Kignol
Doomheim
#64 - 2017-05-06 14:47:21 UTC
I'm very intrigued by all this...

I'm curious to understand, from your point of view, what's the utility to put a group on a terrorist list for a state if this same state doesn't consider it dangerous to itself ?

Could you give us a fully detailed definition, for you (if not the official one), of what is a "terror activity" and the difference with a "criminal activity" ?

Why states (not just Caldari State) declare some group as terrorists ?

How would you consider this same group if they weren't Caldari ?

Why the State is considering them terrorist for so many decades (contrary to sayings that tend to forget that they have never been striken off the terrorist list even during Heth years) and why it has been reaffirmed as such recently (by the full CEP, implying that patriots decided they were dangerous to the State) ?

In State organigram of armed forces, where do you place them ? Are they legal ? If legal why are they on terrorist list ?

Do you have terrorists from other groups in your crew ? Being a terrorist from any group is a prerequisite to join your crew or do you only accept Dragonaurs ? Do you accept also non-terrorists in your crew ?
Kasuko Merin
Anshar Incorporated
#65 - 2017-05-06 15:09:45 UTC
Bran Kignol wrote:
I'm very intrigued by all this...


Who asked you to post this?

Oh, never mind. We all know who asked you to post this.

It was worth it. All of it. Every single second.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#66 - 2017-05-06 15:10:35 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Piracy is a crime.
Terrorism is warfare method.


An illegal method not recognized or protected by any articles of war. There's a marked difference, for example, between irregular/asymmetric warfare, and terrorism.

One of the hallmarks of this is that legitimate asymmetric warfare, the kind that is recognized and acknowledged as legal by the empires and CONCORD, focuses on military targets, with a specific attempt to minimize civilian casualties are required in order to avoid charges of war crimes.

Terrorism, on the other hand, involves specifically targeting civilian populations in order to foment and provoke (guess what!) terror. Civilian populations are targeted preferentially over military targets because the objective is to undermine the trust the population has in their government to protect them and keep them safe.

It is, expressly and specifically a war crime.

Note that last word there, Diana: war crime.

In this instance, the government they were undermining would be the one that declared them terrorists, ie: the State.

War crimes. Against the State.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#67 - 2017-05-06 15:14:04 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I find it interesting that he keeps talking about "Civilized Society"


Well, since the word 'civilization' itself actually just refers to established cities and agriculture, maybe you should have a clue that 'civilized society' is pretty much any society that maintains sufficient population densities—expressly because in order to do so, the inhabitants must behave in a 'civilized' manner toward one another.

Whoever thinks 'civilized' means 'polite' needs to see a doctor about their cranial-rectal inversion.
kul Shaishi
Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu
#68 - 2017-05-06 15:15:19 UTC
Arrendis You're a member of goonswarm why don't you to Declare war on Kim and station camp
Arrendis
TK Corp
#69 - 2017-05-06 15:15:38 UTC
Kasuko Merin wrote:
Bran Kignol wrote:
I'm very intrigued by all this...


Who asked you to post this?

Oh, never mind. We all know who asked you to post this.


Who the hel are you to question why anyone posts anything on the IGS?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#70 - 2017-05-06 15:17:12 UTC
kul Shaishi wrote:
Arrendis You're a member of goonswarm why don't you to Declare war on Kim and station camp


A)She operates in lowsec. Why would I need to declare war?
B)We have no interest in attacking CalMil at this time.
C)If this changes after the meeting of the Directorate in 3 hours, I promise, you'll be the last to know.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2017-05-06 16:21:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Bran Kignol wrote:
I'm very intrigued by all this...

I'm curious to understand, from your point of view, what's the utility to put a group on a terrorist list for a state if this same state doesn't consider it dangerous to itself ?

Could you give us a fully detailed definition, for you (if not the official one), of what is a "terror activity" and the difference with a "criminal activity" ?

Why states (not just Caldari State) declare some group as terrorists ?

How would you consider this same group if they weren't Caldari ?


I can't really speak for Ms. Kim, but, here's a bit of a rundown. Her answers are likely to differ a bit....

The Templis Dragonaurs are definitely a danger to the Caldari State, and more particularly to foreign and client communities within the State. They've proven their willingness to go to war against State forces to try to purge communities they consider unwelcome (e.g., the Waschi Uprising).

Terrorism is a tactic (that's usually criminal), using violent and frightening acts to draw attention to some type of cause and/or issue. It's typically described as "propaganda by deed." Criminal activity is just illegal activity defined as crime by local authorities.

State actors typically declare particular groups "terrorists" to single them out for special, and especially aggressive, attention. Sometimes this might not be deserved. Sometimes it really, really is.

If the Templis weren't Caldari, they'd still be ethno-nationalist extremists.

Quote:
Why the State is considering them terrorist for so many decades (contrary to sayings that tend to forget that they have never been striken off the terrorist list even during Heth years) and why it has been reaffirmed as such recently (by the full CEP, implying that patriots decided they were dangerous to the State) ?

In State organigram of armed forces, where do you place them ? Are they legal ? If legal why are they on terrorist list ?

Do you have terrorists from other groups in your crew ? Being a terrorist from any group is a prerequisite to join your crew or do you only accept Dragonaurs ? Do you accept also non-terrorists in your crew ?


They've got history in the State dating all the way back to the breakout of the original war of secession. Aside from being the people who bombed Nouvelle Rouvenor, they turned on the State and its Intaki allies during the Waschi Uprising and have continued up through the present day with Tibus Heth's short-lived regime. They fell into bad (or worse) odor with the State, which had kind of been turning a blind eye under Heth, after Heth failed in an attempt to seize even greater power and ended up being removed as Executor, then trying to lead a revolt to reclaim power from the CEP.

In other words, they were a little quiet while they were getting their way but once they started losing the guns came out and it became policy to shoot them again.

They're not part of the State armed forces except sneakily. They're mostly a secret society that occasionally breaks into the open. They're not a legal entity.

And I kind of doubt that Ms. Kim recognizes much truth in most of what I just said; she might have been unwilling to concede that she had any terrorists on her crew at all, up to now.
Charles Cambridge Schmidt
Nadire Security Consultants
Federation Peacekeepers
#72 - 2017-05-06 18:12:04 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Piracy is a crime.
Terrorism is warfare method.



Hahahaha what the **** is wrong with you

I don't care what you think, as long as it's about me.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#73 - 2017-05-06 20:32:15 UTC
Charles Cambridge Schmidt wrote:
Hahahaha what the **** is wrong with you


There is not enough ink in the cluster for that piece of writing.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#74 - 2017-05-06 20:49:09 UTC
Lasairiona Raske wrote:
Popcorn, anyone?


Don't mind if I do.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.
Casserina Leshrac
Sanguine Illuminations
#75 - 2017-05-06 20:51:16 UTC
Luna Hanaya wrote:
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
I find it interesting that he keeps talking about "Civilized Society", and i just wonder where the hell does one exist. Or did exist. In all recorded history. And unrecorded.

Everyone gets their hands dirty. Some only outsource it.

It doesn´t make you any cleaner. Nor civilized.



In the Empire, of course! We are all here are terribly civilized.


In fact it's mandated by holy writ and theological law.

Let's not forget the Empire also wants the same for everyone else in New Eden. Under the boot heel.

We stand at the Abyss, drawing the Patterns of Fate - Casserina Leshrac, Savant, Sani Sabik.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#76 - 2017-05-06 21:18:16 UTC
Bran Kignol wrote:

Could you give us a fully detailed definition, for you (if not the official one), of what is a "terror activity" and the difference with a "criminal activity" ?

Terror activity - a warfare method for causing political pressure by instilling fear. Usually performed by groups that lack full funding and equipment to attack military and important tactical targets. Terror attacks are usually weak and affect neither military ability nor disrupt civilian operations of the targeted State as a whole. Casualties are within acceptable margins (when civilian casualties becomes significant and physically affect the State the operation stops being considered terrorism and becomes genocide. When military casualties become significant either in total numbers or in local dislocation, the operation can't be considered a just terror operation as well).

Criminal activity - any activity, prohibited by law.

Bran Kignol wrote:
Why states (not just Caldari State) declare some group as terrorists ?

Not my business.

Bran Kignol wrote:

How would you consider this same group if they weren't Caldari ?

Amarr - allied troops.
Gallente - hostile troops, to engage on contact.
Minmatar - hostile troops, to engage on contact.

Bran Kignol wrote:

Why the State is considering them terrorist for so many decades (contrary to sayings that tend to forget that they have never been striken off the terrorist list even during Heth years) and why it has been reaffirmed as such recently (by the full CEP, implying that patriots decided they were dangerous to the State) ?

Wasn't it one of conditions of YC12 peace treaty?

Bran Kignol wrote:

In State organigram of armed forces, where do you place them ? Are they legal ? If legal why are they on terrorist list ?

We do not have terrorist detachments. Our armed forces are professional, and do not have terrorists like Republic.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#77 - 2017-05-06 21:21:26 UTC
Bran Kignol wrote:

Do you have terrorists from other groups in your crew ? Being a terrorist from any group is a prerequisite to join your crew or do you only accept Dragonaurs ? Do you accept also non-terrorists in your crew ?

Reply was given here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6929425#post6929425
In this exact thread. To read it is advised before asking further questions.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#78 - 2017-05-06 21:32:37 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Bran Kignol wrote:

Could you give us a fully detailed definition, for you (if not the official one), of what is a "terror activity" and the difference with a "criminal activity" ?

Terror activity - a warfare method for causing political pressure by instilling fear. Usually performed by groups that lack full funding and equipment to attack military and important tactical targets. Terror attacks are usually weak and affect neither military ability nor disrupt civilian operations of the targeted State as a whole. Casualties are within acceptable margins (when civilian casualties becomes significant and physically affect the State the operation stops being considered terrorism and becomes genocide. When military casualties become significant either in total numbers or in local dislocation, the operation can't be considered a just terror operation as well).

Casualties within acceptable margins? What makes the loss of civilian life in any way acceptable?

You may as well have just picked up a shovel and found an empty plot...
Arrendis
TK Corp
#79 - 2017-05-06 23:23:20 UTC
Diana, do you remember that whole 'drive a Nyx into a space station' thing?

That was terrorism.

Terrorism is not a legal form of warfare. Can you produce a single recognized authority on warfare (and no, you don't count) who says it is?
Bran Kignol
Doomheim
#80 - 2017-05-07 00:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Bran Kignol
strangely...
Diana Kim wrote:
1) All Dragonaur crewmembers in service on my vessels, that are flying under the banner of Caldari State, State Protectorate and Caldari Militia Coalition, are to be immediately discharged from the service.


Dragonaurs are terrorists (State decision since the group inception cf Ms Aria Jenneth complete explication) therefore how do you explain this ?
Diana Kim wrote:
There are no and were no terrorists on my ship.

Diana Kim wrote:
I... never hired personnel interested primarily in terrorism

Does that mean you hired crewmembers that are primarily interested in close-combat (useful indeed) and secondarily in terrorism ?

Nevertheless my question is still valid : do you have other terrorists onboard ?
Still would like also to know how can you decide who to discharge without outside help ? (lets say State help who could, through intelligence services, get this information)

Wondering, are you just doing this as a pretext to lower your financial expenses due to temporary difficulties ? Completely understandable but a little mean of you to use the CEP statement as a shield for your own layoffs if this is just money trouble.

- Terror activity : Illegal, forbidden into the State therefore is classified into Criminal activity by your own statements.

- Concerning why states decide who is considered terrorist or not, you're partly wrong... This is also partly your business. As Commander, in the end you would be put in position to probably fight any terrorists. Implicitly, you have to fight terrorists wherever you find any that threaten the State. Permiting to live on your ships is potentialy threatening the State.

- Terrorists if weren't Caldari : Amarr/Gallente/Minmatar = hostile and should be destroyed.

- What are the Dragonaurs according to you ? more precisely what is their function (legal point of view) into the State ?

- Do you recognize the fact that Dragonaurs (whatever feelings toward them you have) are put on terrorist list by Caldari State and do respect it and accept all the consequences of such a position ?

I wish to thanks a lot Ms Aria Jenneth for the time taken to have clarified things with a complete covering of my own interrogations... Hope it has been helpful for a better understanding for everybody if not just for me.