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Dev Blog: The Next Steps in Structure Transition

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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#21 - 2017-05-05 14:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
CCP Habakuk wrote:
Oh, it seems like the details for the reimbursement for not deployed outpost platforms and outpost blueprints are missing. Oops

From the patch notes for next weeks release, which will be posted soon:

Quote:

Existing copies of Outpost Construction Platforms, Outpost Construction Platform Blueprints, Station Improvement Platforms and Station Upgrade Platforms have been reimbursed in the following fashion:
* Station Improvement Platforms and Station Upgrade Platforms have been removed and their owners have been credited with isk equal to their full NPC sale value
* Minmatar and Gallente Outpost Platform Blueprints have been converted into Astrahus blueprints
* Amarr and Caldari Outpost Platform Blueprints have been converted into Raitaru blueprints
* Outpost Platforms have been converted into both 1 Fortizar and 1 Azbel


Extra items will be sent to either the home station for characters or the delivery hangar in the HQ station for corporations.


You're going to convert 2b NPC price BPOs into 6b NPC price BPOs that are about to lose some of their utility to the new refinery structures? Astrahus BPOs have already been reselling below NPC due to overbuying and people hopping on new bandwagons. I could understand if you were wanting to ease the transition from outposts to citadels, but we're more than a year past their introduction and have already purchased and researched the BPOs we require. This might've been worth doing back when Citadel was released, but now you're just devaluing peoples' investments in the BPOs from the last year.

Could you let us know why you're doing this? Also, please check that the extra items won't be sent to impound like what happened with SKINs and fighters as it can be very expensive to get them out of there, which is pretty unfair when they weren't there before.

The first part of my first question in this thread still seems pretty relevant.

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Why do you seem hesitant to refund deprecated BPOs, while making them effectively non-functional?
Servanda
Liga Freier Terraner
Northern Coalition.
#22 - 2017-05-05 15:29:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Servanda
Elizabeth Norn wrote:


...

The first part of my first question in this thread still seems pretty relevant.

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Why do you seem hesitant to refund deprecated BPOs, while making them effectively non-functional?



I would asume one reason for this is that bpos serve partly as ISK sinks. That's why it can be better for the economy to convert them into there replacement bpos wherever that is posible instead of pumping all that isk back into the game everytime a system gets replaced with something new.
Rinoll Utama
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2017-05-05 15:30:10 UTC
I'm just going to echo what people have already said regarding WH gameplay. If a new, POS comparable structure isn't added then a large portion of WH gameplay is going to wither and die, basically. I don't live in WH's myself, but I can appreciate the strategies used, and this kind of emergent gameplay is something that needs to stay in the game IMO.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-05-05 15:56:53 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:

You're going to convert 2b NPC price BPOs into 6b NPC price BPOs that are about to lose some of their utility to the new refinery structures? Astrahus BPOs have already been reselling below NPC due to overbuying and people hopping on new bandwagons. I could understand if you were wanting to ease the transition from outposts to citadels, but we're more than a year past their introduction and have already purchased and researched the BPOs we require. This might've been worth doing back when Citadel was released, but now you're just devaluing peoples' investments in the BPOs from the last year.

Could you let us know why you're doing this? Also, please check that the extra items won't be sent to impound like what happened with SKINs and fighters as it can be very expensive to get them out of there, which is pretty unfair when they weren't there before.

The first part of my first question in this thread still seems pretty relevant.

Elizabeth Norn wrote:
Why do you seem hesitant to refund deprecated BPOs, while making them effectively non-functional?

Well... It's not that these BPOs will be 'effectively non-functional'. They still can be used to make BPCs, to manufacture or they can be sold.

In similar cases with skills CCP never refunds what still can be used. And they better not do "one-time exceptions"....

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

DrysonBennington
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2017-05-05 16:05:33 UTC
What about an array that would allow "Renter's" to have their own facility to dock and launch from?

The Renter's Hub would be smaller hubs capable of handling 10, 20 or 30 hangars for neutral players to base out of. The Renters's Hub would be free of combat involving the Citadel but could still be attacked none-the-less.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#26 - 2017-05-05 16:47:54 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

Well... It's not that these BPOs will be 'effectively non-functional'. They still can be used to make BPCs, to manufacture or they can be sold.

In similar cases with skills CCP never refunds what still can be used. And they better not do "one-time exceptions"....


Outposts and their BPOs have been effectively non-functional for a while now. This dev blog also talks about doing the same to some POS arrays (which is still late), but doesn't mention anything about refunds.

http://i.imgur.com/KOYkfTk.png
CCP Habakuk
C C P
C C P Alliance
#27 - 2017-05-05 17:16:46 UTC
Elizabeth Norn wrote:

Outposts and their BPOs have been effectively non-functional for a while now. This dev blog also talks about doing the same to some POS arrays (which is still late), but doesn't mention anything about refunds.


Some considerations regarding blueprint refunds in general:
* In most cases it is much better to transition them to a different blueprint type instead of giving isk for them. Then we can treat BPOs and BPCs the same and we are not losing the research value of a blueprint.
* The exact reimbursement is normally only announced (and decided) after the NPC sell orders are removed from the market: Then there is less concern if the worth of a specific blueprint increases a bit through the reimbursement (otherwise it could be abused too easily :) ).

CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five 0 | (Team Gridlock)

Bug reporting | Mass Testing

Res Five
Crown Solutions
TOGETHER WE STAND
#28 - 2017-05-05 18:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Res Five
CCP Habakuk wrote:
* The exact reimbursement is normally only announced (and decided) after the NPC sell orders are removed from the market: Then there is less concern if the worth of a specific blueprint increases a bit through the reimbursement (otherwise it could be abused too easily :) ).


On the other hand, removing the functionality from items/blueprints will lower their worth down to zero. Since the announcement that the POSes will be removed, the modules and blueprints lost even 80%-90% of their values in some cases. How will those be reimbursed ?
Cloon McCloon
Space Fukery
Evictus.
#29 - 2017-05-05 19:11:26 UTC
"These structures will continue to operate for some time longer and any jobs started before the August patch will complete with the bonuses intact."

Will research jobs that are still in progress roll into the new fortizar structure after the big day and continue to research, or will they fail? I purposely start very long research jobs in outposts because I don't have to worry about the outpost exploding several months into research and losing my progress.
Graz3r
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2017-05-05 21:14:59 UTC
I can see some serious imbalance here with regards to outposts being replaced and destructible. Can ccp make low sec and high sec outposts destructible too? That way eve is in balance all over the everse.

As well as powerblocs and blue donuts will go hit all small entities to take away their outpost/faction citadels. Conflict and content is good, its what keeps everse turning, but this is a new low with no measures in place prevent powerblocs running around rampant and taking over outposts, knowing smaller entities cannot fight far bigger entities than themselves.

Think this is another ccp fail.
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#31 - 2017-05-05 22:05:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
CCP Habakuk wrote:
Elizabeth Norn wrote:

Outposts and their BPOs have been effectively non-functional for a while now. This dev blog also talks about doing the same to some POS arrays (which is still late), but doesn't mention anything about refunds.


Some considerations regarding blueprint refunds in general:
* In most cases it is much better to transition them to a different blueprint type instead of giving isk for them. Then we can treat BPOs and BPCs the same and we are not losing the research value of a blueprint.
* The exact reimbursement is normally only announced (and decided) after the NPC sell orders are removed from the market: Then there is less concern if the worth of a specific blueprint increases a bit through the reimbursement (otherwise it could be abused too easily :) ).


I can understand that reasoning, but it's too late. We've already purchased, and we know from the MERs that a lot were bought, and researched the BPOs we wanted for these previous Upwell structures (citadels are over a year old now). If you were to replace the BPOs at the same time you introduce the relevant Upwell structure then it'd be less of an issue and we could plan around that, but what you've done is left us in limbo for a period of time and are now giving us things we didn't ask for nor need.

Sure, it'll be nice for me to have my Outpost Platform BPOs replaced with more expensive (at NPC price) BPOs, but it comes at the cost of undermining those who chose to invest in Astrahus BPOs for three times the price, or perhaps there's some relation to the worth of ISK when these old BPOs were bought more regularly? Will you be replacing Small Ship Assembly Array Blueprints (50m ISK NPC) with the closest equivalent, a Standup Manufacturing Plant I Blueprint (1b ISK NPC)? That'd be even worse, but it sounds like a good investment for me.
Danastar
Balkan Kings
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2017-05-06 12:16:20 UTC
Greetings,

what will happen with research jobs that are still active in outposts during transition.

thank You
Ipushmyfingersintomyeyes
Dragoon Heavy Industries
#33 - 2017-05-06 19:11:58 UTC
Mostly just want to know whats happening with the Tukker and Hyasyoda modules. I trust CCP to build an effective module for it but this means I will have to remove defensive modules from an EC to fit this? I sincerely hope it is not a rig as that would make things seriously complicated. Maybe ECs could get a "specialized" fitting slot to fit one or two of these that will not impact it's defensive abilities. I appreciate that CCP is going to replace these modules with something similar and not let the arrays just be forgotten. Several industrial operations are built in lowsec entirely around the Thukker and Hyasyoda modules and would be in null or highsec if the arrays didn't exist.
Elenahina
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2017-05-06 23:59:30 UTC
Therem Harth wrote:
What would happen with outpost "eggs" that will happen to be manufactured but not deployed by the date of "upgrade"?


Since you can no longer place new outposts, anyone who's still making eggs is an idiot and deserves to lose their ISK.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Vladimir Stolichnaya
Rio Rancho Estates
#35 - 2017-05-07 16:11:46 UTC
On the subject of Structures ......

Why o Why Do the Medium and Large Engineering Complexes have Vulnerability Windows THREE TIMES LONGER then their Citadel counterparts ?

Med size = Citadel = 3 hours / Engineering Complex = 9 hours
Lrg size = Citadel = 6 hours / Engineering Complex = 18 hours [ 2x Med for both]
XLrg size = Citadel 21 hours / Engineering Complex = 36 hours [ 7x Med for Citadel / 4x for Engineering Complex *]

*[ I guess making the XLrg Engineering Complex vulnerable for 63 hours was too, too much overkill ? ]
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#36 - 2017-05-07 18:21:51 UTC
now i prolly missed a few things here.

Am i to understand POS are beeing removed?

If so, what will happen to the structures? Will i get some iskies back or what?

Like i said, i prolly missed some devblog explaining this.
Mona Me
poon-tang
#37 - 2017-05-07 22:48:04 UTC
000Hunter000 wrote:


Am i to understand POS are beeing removed?



I did not know it was possible to hide under a rock in space!Roll
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE
Virtus Crusade Protectorate
#38 - 2017-05-07 23:19:04 UTC
Question for all of you and devs:

Question Why not turn the conquerable stations into unconquerable pirate stations. We have those in hi-sec, why not null (and low for that matter)??? It would create a unique (Thera-esque) form of null sec. It can't be taken over and a place where you can run missions for the pirate factions. Do the same with some low-sec systems in each region maybe. Convert them to pirate sov.

Maybe this has been addressed/asked before but it seems very relevant here. I just think the whole solution you have concocted for these conquerable stations is convoluted more than it has to be and doesn't add much to the game (whereas this would.)

Flame on.
Vladimir Stolichnaya
Rio Rancho Estates
#39 - 2017-05-08 02:20:49 UTC
Ms Michigan wrote:
Question for all of you and devs:

Question Why not turn the conquerable stations into unconquerable pirate stations. We have those in hi-sec, why not null (and low for that matter)??? It would create a unique (Thera-esque) form of null sec. It can't be taken over and a place where you can run missions for the pirate factions. Do the same with some low-sec systems in each region maybe. Convert them to pirate sov.

Maybe this has been addressed/asked before but it seems very relevant here. I just think the whole solution you have concocted for these conquerable stations is convoluted more than it has to be and doesn't add much to the game (whereas this would.)

Flame on.


Like most things, In Theory, sounds nice.

Now the question becomes = Would you like to have an NPC free dock staging point for your enemies right in the middle of your space ? Hmmmm Me thinks not.

I do however agree in part that the " Immensea " stations should remain unconquerable and more importantly Unanchorable stations.
But that is not going to happen.
Things going boom is what makes New Eden go around, and makes people buy PLEX to replace it
Gorr Shakor
No Country for Old Nerds
#40 - 2017-05-08 08:15:44 UTC
How is gas processing moving from Biochemical Reactor Arrays to Upwell structures? What about the Gallente tower's 100% bonus to Silo Cargo Capacity?
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