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Author
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2017-05-04 23:04:23 UTC
Halcyon Ember wrote:

That's a product of the belief, rather than the people. Thus the belief needs to change. Unless you're saying I should be purged as a slaver waiting to happen?


That's quite an inference you're taking there. To be blunt:

Do you support slavery? If so, your clone contracts should be cancelled and you should be shot.
Do you oppose slavery? If so, great. If you're still in the Empire, what are you doing to end it? If nothing, then you're actions say you're indifferent.
Are you indifferent to it? Congratulations, you're giving slavery your tacit support! Let's get you that bullet.
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
#42 - 2017-05-04 23:15:05 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Halcyon Ember wrote:

That's a product of the belief, rather than the people. Thus the belief needs to change. Unless you're saying I should be purged as a slaver waiting to happen?


That's quite an inference you're taking there. To be blunt:

Do you support slavery? If so, your clone contracts should be cancelled and you should be shot.
Do you oppose slavery? If so, great. If you're still in the Empire, what are you doing to end it? If nothing, then you're actions say you're indifferent.
Are you indifferent to it? Congratulations, you're giving slavery your tacit support! Let's get you that bullet.

If you're intending to shoot everyone who is indifferent to slavery, you're going to have to broaden your focus from the Amarrians.
I'm not indifferent, I'm also not going to fight. A change of attitude is needed. That I will argue for, but a change of attitude is difficult when people whose cause you might support are unwilling to look past the fact of your birth and are willing to blame upon you things you have had no hand in.
I am not my people.

Queen of Chocolate

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#43 - 2017-05-04 23:23:07 UTC
Halcyon Ember wrote:
If you're intending to shoot everyone who is indifferent to slavery, you're going to have to broaden your focus from the Amarrians.


Angels and other non-governmental slavers get shot all the damned time. Everyone pretty much agress on shooting them, too. Well, except for them. But that's the situation with the Amarr, too, isn't it?

Quote:

I'm not indifferent, I'm also not going to fight. A change of attitude is needed. That I will argue for, but a change of attitude is difficult when people whose cause you might support are unwilling to look past the fact of your birth and are willing to blame upon you things you have had no hand in


Are you doing anything about it? Note that I'm not saying you need to be going around shooting people to be doing something about it. Are you actively working to change public opinion? Are you denouncing corporations and individuals profiting from human bondage? Are you refusing to spend ISK buying ships and materiel in Amarr while the Empire supports slavery?

Or are you just shaking your head in disapproval while you continue to buy products made with slave labor? Doing business in stations owned by corporations that hold slaves—like say, the Amarr VII Emperor Family station—and so letting your taxes and broken fees support slavery?

If you live within the Empire, either you're doing something about it, or you're supporting it. If you don't want it to be up to people willing to shoot you in the head... fix it yourselves. The longer you take, the more bullets we buy.
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
#44 - 2017-05-04 23:32:37 UTC
I live in Gallente space. Most of my trading occurs in federation stations. Or stations run by SoE. In my first years after leaving the empire I undertook a significant body of work for a number of matari corporations. As always when a capsuleers engages in such activities, there were casualties. I'm sure you're aware of what casualties they might be.
Now I'd rather set the example that not all Amarrians are as so many wish to view them. I'm not a fighter nor an activist. I will offer support to those who request it, but not to those who would snarl and snap as if the identity of a persons father taints them indelibly.

Queen of Chocolate

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#45 - 2017-05-04 23:40:18 UTC
Oh wow, another offtopic post on how Arrendis is bad. Taking from here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6929372#post6929372
Arrendis wrote:
Actually, Makoto, since she's been paying them, they've attacked the State, and money is fungible*, wouldn't that mean she's been materially supporting terrorist activities against the State? In fact, since she's been making money off of their activites—specifically, their activities as her crew—doesn't that mean that her ships have effectively been a terrorist front? That opens her up to all sorts of conspiracy and racketeering charges if she doesn't inform the State of the locations of those Dragonaur she knows about.

I mean, speaking as someone who was a corporate officer in Caldari space for a time, and had to deal with potential criminal liability issues, and all.

* - Fungibility basically means that once money enters a common pool, one credit is indistinguishable from another. So if you need 40 ISK for ammo and 60 ISK for fuel, and I give you 50 ISK and Ali gives you 50 ISK, when you hit Jita a week later and buy everything, neither one of us can claim we were only giving you money for gas, because it's impossible to tell, ultimately, whose money went to buy the missiles.

Now think about it, how someone with working synapses in their brain could imagine that paying to a hired worker is funding someone's activity? I am not even speaking about criminality or a terrorism at all, but simple concept.

When you pay for a worker, you pay for what they do in your service or according to contract you hired them for. When you are funding personnel you support them with money for them to do their own activities, that you might get profits from.

One probably should fall down from 5th floor and hit concrete with head to think that paying hired workforce to work for the organization is the same as funding activity against the named organization.

We could laugh at Arrendis, of course, but... maybe we could find some specialist to help her? Is it possible at all?

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2017-05-05 03:38:17 UTC
Halcyon Ember wrote:
I live in Gallente space. Most of my trading occurs in federation stations. Or stations run by SoE. In my first years after leaving the empire I undertook a significant body of work for a number of matari corporations. As always when a capsuleers engages in such activities, there were casualties. I'm sure you're aware of what casualties they might be.
Now I'd rather set the example that not all Amarrians are as so many wish to view them. I'm not a fighter nor an activist. I will offer support to those who request it, but not to those who would snarl and snap as if the identity of a persons father taints them indelibly.


Well, you're the only one who's made that assertion, so feel free to keep complaining about it.

If you're not contributing to the Empire anymore, then there you go: you're not providing them with tacit approval of slavery. No bullet to the head on that score.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2017-05-05 03:42:10 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:

Now think about it, how someone with working synapses in their brain could imagine that paying to a hired worker is funding someone's activity? I am not even speaking about criminality or a terrorism at all, but simple concept.

When you pay for a worker, you pay for what they do in your service or according to contract you hired them for. When you are funding personnel you support them with money for them to do their own activities, that you might get profits from.


Yup. You're giving them money. You're funding them. Glad to see you've clued into that little bit. So, if they take that money and use it in the furtherance of terrorist goals, and you've made a consistent policy of hiring them to be the dominant portion of your crew, then you're knowingly giving money to terrorists.

And that makes you legally culpable. Congratulations. Keep trying to weasel out of what you've repeatedly admitted to: crimes against the State.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#48 - 2017-05-05 03:47:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Diana Kim wrote:
Oh wow, another offtopic post on how Arrendis is bad. Taking from here. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6929372#post6929372
Arrendis wrote:
Actually, Makoto, since she's been paying them, they've attacked the State, and money is fungible*, wouldn't that mean she's been materially supporting terrorist activities against the State? In fact, since she's been making money off of their activites—specifically, their activities as her crew—doesn't that mean that her ships have effectively been a terrorist front? That opens her up to all sorts of conspiracy and racketeering charges if she doesn't inform the State of the locations of those Dragonaur she knows about.

I mean, speaking as someone who was a corporate officer in Caldari space for a time, and had to deal with potential criminal liability issues, and all.

* - Fungibility basically means that once money enters a common pool, one credit is indistinguishable from another. So if you need 40 ISK for ammo and 60 ISK for fuel, and I give you 50 ISK and Ali gives you 50 ISK, when you hit Jita a week later and buy everything, neither one of us can claim we were only giving you money for gas, because it's impossible to tell, ultimately, whose money went to buy the missiles.

Now think about it, how someone with working synapses in their brain could imagine that paying to a hired worker is funding someone's activity? I am not even speaking about criminality or a terrorism at all, but simple concept.

When you pay for a worker, you pay for what they do in your service or according to contract you hired them for. When you are funding personnel you support them with money for them to do their own activities, that you might get profits from.

One probably should fall down from 5th floor and hit concrete with head to think that paying hired workforce to work for the organization is the same as funding activity against the named organization.

We could laugh at Arrendis, of course, but... maybe we could find some specialist to help her? Is it possible at all?


Kim, beyond taking care of material needs and living expenses, what do you think money can be used for? Did you expect your workers to just hoard their money for no good reason?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#49 - 2017-05-05 04:37:58 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Now think about it, how someone with working synapses in their brain could imagine that paying to a hired worker is funding someone's activity? I am not even speaking about criminality or a terrorism at all, but simple concept.

When you pay for a worker, you pay for what they do in your service or according to contract you hired them for. When you are funding personnel you support them with money for them to do their own activities, that you might get profits from.


Yup. You're giving them money. You're funding them. Glad to see you've clued into that little bit. So, if they take that money and use it in the furtherance of terrorist goals, and you've made a consistent policy of hiring them to be the dominant portion of your crew, then you're knowingly giving money to terrorists.

And that makes you legally culpable. Congratulations. Keep trying to weasel out of what you've repeatedly admitted to: crimes against the State.


Excuse me, but what moron would ever consider paying to hired workers to be a crime against the State, when these workers work for the State without violating any law?

Enough of this clownery. You need help, Arrendis. Ask your clone technicians to fix your synapses before your consciousness disintegrates completely.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#50 - 2017-05-05 04:45:11 UTC
They are Templis Dragonaur, members of a terrorist organization.

By being members of a terrorist organization, they are criminals.

Ergo.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#51 - 2017-05-05 05:16:57 UTC
Makoto Priano wrote:
They are Templis Dragonaur, members of a terrorist organization.

By being members of a terrorist organization, they are criminals.

Ergo.

Makoto it seems just loves to accuse people by association.

Luckily, that's not how any civilized law system works, and people who thought like that were all left far in medieval times of Caldari civilization.

Though the equating a terrorist to criminal? Well, I guess we put then a criminal charge against Makoto for idiotism. That's almost identical.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#52 - 2017-05-05 06:45:57 UTC
Riiiight.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2017-05-05 07:05:57 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
They are Templis Dragonaur, members of a terrorist organization.

By being members of a terrorist organization, they are criminals.

Ergo.

Makoto it seems just loves to accuse people by association.

Luckily, that's not how any civilized law system works, and people who thought like that were all left far in medieval times of Caldari civilization.

Though the equating a terrorist to criminal? Well, I guess we put then a criminal charge against Makoto for idiotism. That's almost identical.

There are some Holders who whip some of remaining slaves if one of them runs away. They are bad, very very bad people.

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Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
#54 - 2017-05-05 07:24:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Halcyon Ember
Arrendis wrote:
Halcyon Ember wrote:
I live in Gallente space. Most of my trading occurs in federation stations. Or stations run by SoE. In my first years after leaving the empire I undertook a significant body of work for a number of matari corporations. As always when a capsuleers engages in such activities, there were casualties. I'm sure you're aware of what casualties they might be.
Now I'd rather set the example that not all Amarrians are as so many wish to view them. I'm not a fighter nor an activist. I will offer support to those who request it, but not to those who would snarl and snap as if the identity of a persons father taints them indelibly.


Well, you're the only one who's made that assertion, so feel free to keep complaining about it.

If you're not contributing to the Empire anymore, then there you go: you're not providing them with tacit approval of slavery. No bullet to the head on that score.


You condemn a great many people for a decision they're not even aware they've made. If you live your life in a cave, what can you know of the colour of the sky? If someone arrives and tells you to leave the cave, do you embrace them as saviour? Or fight them for fear of the unknown? What if someone tells you that you must die for living in a cave, when the cave is all you've ever known?

Queen of Chocolate

Luna Hanaya
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2017-05-05 10:59:43 UTC
Quote:
So the Lord sent forth the Chosen,
to bring forth the light of faith
And those who embrace his love
Shall be saved by his grace
For we are his shepherds in the darkness
His Angels of Mercy.
But those who turn away from his light,
And reject his true word
Shall be struck down by his wrath
For we are his retribution incarnate
His Angels of Vengeance

- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45

((

If you are a roleplayer, please join official CCP channels ingame for roleplayers and support roleplaying community:

Intergalactic Summit - IC router

Out of Character - channel for discussion of roleplay, live events and lore

))

Elsebeth Rhiannon
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#56 - 2017-05-05 11:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Quote:
- The Scriptures, Book of Reclaiming 4:45

Come darkness
I am a candle in the hand of Fate

Come war
I am a weapon in the hand of Fate

Come death
I am a child holding the hand of Fate

- Warrior's mantra, trad (Seb.)
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#57 - 2017-05-05 12:56:55 UTC
Halcyon Ember wrote:

You condemn a great many people for a decision they're not even aware they've made. If you live your life in a cave, what can you know of the colour of the sky? If someone arrives and tells you to leave the cave, do you embrace them as saviour? Or fight them for fear of the unknown? What if someone tells you that you must die for living in a cave, when the cave is all you've ever known?


And now you're conflating slavery with something that doesn't affect anyone else. Tell me, do you really believe that there are people in the Amarr Empire who've never heard of the Minmatar Republic? Who've no idea that Matari are kept as slaves? That there was a slave rebellion, or that Empress Jamyl I became Empress after fending off a fleet of Matari vessels intent on liberating slaves?

Do you think anyone who lived through the wall-to-wall Jamyl-for-Messiah hype after she died doesn't know it?

We are all responsible for the choices we make, even when our choice is to not make a choice. To attempt to excuse people from their responsibility as human beings to own their own decisions is to infantilize them, to render them nothing more than brain-damaged children who can't possibly be expected to make their own decisions.

Who exactly is it insulting 'your people' now? The person treating them like adults and demanding they act like it? Or the person who insists they can't be expected to know what they're doing?
Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
#58 - 2017-05-05 13:11:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Halcyon Ember
Arrendis wrote:
Halcyon Ember wrote:

You condemn a great many people for a decision they're not even aware they've made. If you live your life in a cave, what can you know of the colour of the sky? If someone arrives and tells you to leave the cave, do you embrace them as saviour? Or fight them for fear of the unknown? What if someone tells you that you must die for living in a cave, when the cave is all you've ever known?


And now you're conflating slavery with something that doesn't affect anyone else. Tell me, do you really believe that there are people in the Amarr Empire who've never heard of the Minmatar Republic? Who've no idea that Matari are kept as slaves? That there was a slave rebellion, or that Empress Jamyl I became Empress after fending off a fleet of Matari vessels intent on liberating slaves?

Do you think anyone who lived through the wall-to-wall Jamyl-for-Messiah hype after she died doesn't know it?

We are all responsible for the choices we make, even when our choice is to not make a choice. To attempt to excuse people from their responsibility as human beings to own their own decisions is to infantilize them, to render them nothing more than brain-damaged children who can't possibly be expected to make their own decisions.

Who exactly is it insulting 'your people' now? The person treating them like adults and demanding they act like it? Or the person who insists they can't be expected to know what they're doing?


I'm not excusing them, I'm suggesting that their experiences aren't as "worldly" as yours, that the information they're offered and the choices available to them aren't as easy or as informed as you'd like to believe. That when you have, for generations, been told that this is the way things are that a shift in view point isn't an easy thing. Especially when the same Dogma continues to be taught and expounded upon. Reserve your hate for those who truly deserve it by maintaining a poisonous system for their own gratification and glory, rather than those who might otherwise have lives you consider blameless but for the place of their birth. You'll find people far easier to persuade if you don't act like they all need to be shot on principle alone.

Queen of Chocolate

Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#59 - 2017-05-05 13:32:30 UTC
Two pages into an off-topic discussion thread and it has turned into a debate about slavery. I am guessing within another 3 it will be about comparing who is the most Caldari.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.

Halcyon Ember
Repracor Industries
#60 - 2017-05-05 13:34:53 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Two pages into an off-topic discussion thread and it has turned into a debate about slavery. I am guessing within another 3 it will be about comparing who is the most Caldari.



I'm not debating slavery. I'm suggesting the number of people Arrendis actually needs to shoot is far smaller than she believes.

Queen of Chocolate