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Assault Frigate Role Ideas

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Author
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#41 - 2017-05-09 15:23:59 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Scialt wrote:
How about just reducing the materials needed to make them.

If a wolf cost 9m instead of 25m now (or 33m for a Svipul)... it might get more use by just being a cheaper option for a similar role as a T3D. Right now the price doesn't match the utility.


At which point you've now got a ship that's massively over-performing in terms of cost to benefit compared to its T1 and even most T2 and faction counterparts. Having AFs take away the "cheap fleet" option from T1 ships isn't particularly better than the current state between T3Ds and AFs.


Well... we're talking about making an AF match a T1 cruiser in terms of price. It's been a long time since I flew an AF, but would you say it's utility in a fleet matches a T1 cruiser? If it does... I'm not sure what giving it the same price point would harm. Yes.. it would take away the "cheep fleet" option from T1 frigates... the same way T1 cruisers do. Is that a problem?



frigates have advantages a cruiser doesn't T1 cruisers do not take away the cheap fleet option from T1 frigs


apples and oranges


Well, I'm playing devils advocate here... but what exactly are those advantages?

I look at it this way (base stats).

Rifter - 456 speed, 35m sig radius, 2.3K eff hp - 350K price
Wolf - 411 speed, 33m sig radius, 4.8K eff hp - 28m price
Stabber - 363 speed, 100m sig radius, 7.6K eff hp - 9m price
Svipul - 275 speed, 60m sig radius, 6K eff hp - 33m price

Now I know the stabber uses medium guns and the other three use lights... but the stabber can also field 5 light drones while none of the others fieled any. I find it hard to accept that the stabber would really have worse damage application against any ship type than the wolf does... it's fairly close the the same speed, it has almost 3K more EHP baseline... and it's a third of the price.

Even using the "cheap fleet" comparison... at 9m isk the rifter is 1/26th the price of the Stabber (or Wolf if the price were reduced). It's still a lot cheaper.
Cade Windstalker
#42 - 2017-05-09 17:10:37 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Well... we're talking about making an AF match a T1 cruiser in terms of price. It's been a long time since I flew an AF, but would you say it's utility in a fleet matches a T1 cruiser? If it does... I'm not sure what giving it the same price point would harm. Yes.. it would take away the "cheep fleet" option from T1 frigates... the same way T1 cruisers do. Is that a problem?


A T1 Cruiser isn't really comparable to an Assault Frigate.

If you want to do a Frigate roam then that's different from doing a Cruiser roam, and people still do both.

I could go into a lot of things that a Frigate can do that a Cruiser can't but that's really beside the point. Any comparison between what a Frigate can do and a Cruiser can do is just going to get down into the weeds for a game of verbal Calvin Ball. There's no rules, there's no winning, just a never ending parade of more and more specific hypothetical situations until we get far enough off topic that an ISD starts nuking posts.

Frigates and Cruisers aren't in competition for role space in most fleets, small gangs, solo roams, ect. T1 Frigates and AFs are though, and with AFs sitting at ~9m I'm not sure why anyone would ever bring a T1 Frigate as a damage ship ever again.

Far far better IMO to make small buffs to AFs or try to throw them into a different role entirely rather than take a chainsaw to their price point and basically re-create the T3D issue but between AFs and T1 hulls.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#43 - 2017-05-09 17:27:03 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scialt wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Scialt wrote:
How about just reducing the materials needed to make them.

If a wolf cost 9m instead of 25m now (or 33m for a Svipul)... it might get more use by just being a cheaper option for a similar role as a T3D. Right now the price doesn't match the utility.


At which point you've now got a ship that's massively over-performing in terms of cost to benefit compared to its T1 and even most T2 and faction counterparts. Having AFs take away the "cheap fleet" option from T1 ships isn't particularly better than the current state between T3Ds and AFs.


Well... we're talking about making an AF match a T1 cruiser in terms of price. It's been a long time since I flew an AF, but would you say it's utility in a fleet matches a T1 cruiser? If it does... I'm not sure what giving it the same price point would harm. Yes.. it would take away the "cheep fleet" option from T1 frigates... the same way T1 cruisers do. Is that a problem?



frigates have advantages a cruiser doesn't T1 cruisers do not take away the cheap fleet option from T1 frigs


apples and oranges


Well, I'm playing devils advocate here... but what exactly are those advantages?

I look at it this way (base stats).

Rifter - 456 speed, 35m sig radius, 2.3K eff hp - 350K price
Wolf - 411 speed, 33m sig radius, 4.8K eff hp - 28m price
Stabber - 363 speed, 100m sig radius, 7.6K eff hp - 9m price
Svipul - 275 speed, 60m sig radius, 6K eff hp - 33m price

Now I know the stabber uses medium guns and the other three use lights... but the stabber can also field 5 light drones while none of the others fieled any. I find it hard to accept that the stabber would really have worse damage application against any ship type than the wolf does... it's fairly close the the same speed, it has almost 3K more EHP baseline... and it's a third of the price.

Even using the "cheap fleet" comparison... at 9m isk the rifter is 1/26th the price of the Stabber (or Wolf if the price were reduced). It's still a lot cheaper.



lol your lack of understanding is amazing don't do much pvp do you.
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#44 - 2017-05-10 13:50:32 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Scialt wrote:


Well, I'm playing devils advocate here... but what exactly are those advantages?

I look at it this way (base stats).

Rifter - 456 speed, 35m sig radius, 2.3K eff hp - 350K price
Wolf - 411 speed, 33m sig radius, 4.8K eff hp - 28m price
Stabber - 363 speed, 100m sig radius, 7.6K eff hp - 9m price
Svipul - 275 speed, 60m sig radius, 6K eff hp - 33m price

Now I know the stabber uses medium guns and the other three use lights... but the stabber can also field 5 light drones while none of the others fieled any. I find it hard to accept that the stabber would really have worse damage application against any ship type than the wolf does... it's fairly close the the same speed, it has almost 3K more EHP baseline... and it's a third of the price.

Even using the "cheap fleet" comparison... at 9m isk the rifter is 1/26th the price of the Stabber (or Wolf if the price were reduced). It's still a lot cheaper.



lol your lack of understanding is amazing don't do much pvp do you.


Mostly I run from combat, do pure frigate 1vs1 (in FW plexes) or am in fleet ops in a cruiser or combat interceptors.

So, other than novice plexes in FW (which don't allow T2 frigates) I have no idea what the role of T1 frigate damage dealer would be. You are correct that I lack understanding of that. I am not even close to being an expert on the mechanics of PvP... but I do know that I've never seen a fleet doctrine for Assault Frigates or T1 frigates as damage dealers. Interceptors... sure... but that's because of nullification.

I'll be honest... in pretty much every role I've seen in fleets, T1 ships are only used for people who can't fly the T2 equivalent. I've been in fleets with T1 tackle or T1 Ewar or T1 logistics... but only until the pilot could fly T2 versions of the same thing. Shouldn't the same be true for T1 damage dealing frigates? Doesn't the fact that it doesn't actually work that way in reality but instead that people advance to cruisers like the RLML Caracal mean the price point for the assault cruiser is too high? People are going for the 10m isk cruiser instead of the 30m isk assault frigate.... because it's clearly way superior at its role given the price difference (damage dealing against smaller ships).

Lugh Crow-Slave
#45 - 2017-05-10 15:28:39 UTC
AF frigates used to be quite popular and had many doctrines built out of them before t3ds AF frigs were not ignored even though the cost over 2x as much as t1 crusts. This is because they are faster smaller hit about just as hard with better application while taking less damage this gap was made even bigger when warp speed changes were done. T1 cruisers have a cost advantage a utility advantage and work much better with logistics. T1 frigs are almost the same aS the AF just with less tank both raw and less mitigation and less dps. However t1 frigs still were faster and smaller than t1 cruisers making them great at chasing and holding down targets.


If an AF only cost 9 mil you can bet the only reason a t1 combat frig is used will be because they can't fly t2
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#46 - 2017-05-10 17:44:38 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
AF frigates used to be quite popular and had many doctrines built out of them before t3ds AF frigs were not ignored even though the cost over 2x as much as t1 crusts. This is because they are faster smaller hit about just as hard with better application while taking less damage this gap was made even bigger when warp speed changes were done. T1 cruisers have a cost advantage a utility advantage and work much better with logistics. T1 frigs are almost the same aS the AF just with less tank both raw and less mitigation and less dps. However t1 frigs still were faster and smaller than t1 cruisers making them great at chasing and holding down targets.


If an AF only cost 9 mil you can bet the only reason a t1 combat frig is used will be because they can't fly t2



Everything you describe T1 frigates being good at are things that people use interceptors for now. People use interceptors instead of T1 the majority of the time if they have the skills DESPITE them being in the same price range as AF... because they're better.

The problem with AF is that if you HAVE an interceptor holding down your target... a T1 cruiser is every bit as good as an AF for dealing damage to that target. An alpha (as in clone, not strike) fitted caracal can put out over 300 DPS with rapid lights. A t2 fitted AF is more likely around 200-250 DPS with half the tank even with T2 fittings.

And the cruiser costs less.

The assault frigate is better than a T1 frigate... but it costs more than 60 times as much. It's at best equal to and at worst worse than a T1 damage dealing cruiser even against small targets unless it has to tackle as well as do damage... and it costs 3 times as much as the cruiser. And interceptors cost the same and are far superior tacklers (because that is their job).

Look... it's not worth the price at the moment for pretty much anything. It either needs a buff that turns it into something other than a pure combat frigate... or it needs a reduction in price. It's really not a problem to have T1 ships be suboptimal... because they're T1. It's a problem when T2 ships are suboptimal.
Cade Windstalker
#47 - 2017-05-10 23:04:40 UTC
Scialt wrote:
Everything you describe T1 frigates being good at are things that people use interceptors for now. People use interceptors instead of T1 the majority of the time if they have the skills DESPITE them being in the same price range as AF... because they're better.

The problem with AF is that if you HAVE an interceptor holding down your target... a T1 cruiser is every bit as good as an AF for dealing damage to that target. An alpha (as in clone, not strike) fitted caracal can put out over 300 DPS with rapid lights. A t2 fitted AF is more likely around 200-250 DPS with half the tank even with T2 fittings.

And the cruiser costs less.

The assault frigate is better than a T1 frigate... but it costs more than 60 times as much. It's at best equal to and at worst worse than a T1 damage dealing cruiser even against small targets unless it has to tackle as well as do damage... and it costs 3 times as much as the cruiser. And interceptors cost the same and are far superior tacklers (because that is their job).

Look... it's not worth the price at the moment for pretty much anything. It either needs a buff that turns it into something other than a pure combat frigate... or it needs a reduction in price. It's really not a problem to have T1 ships be suboptimal... because they're T1. It's a problem when T2 ships are suboptimal.


Couple of quick points here.

First off, yes Inties are more popular than T1 Frigates, but not by as much as you might suppose. Interceptors as a class pulled in ~85k kills on average Feb-April. In that same time looking at *just* T1 Frigates (no Faction of any kind) they pulled in something like 70k kills (I'm estimating since there's no Just T1 group on ZKill) and for losses they got ~43k to the Inty 17-18k. That means that while they're certainly less effective (and there's probably a fair number of NPC and Cyno losses in the T1 data) they're absolutely getting used.

If you recall all the way back to 2012 when the Tiericide first kicked off most T1 Frigates were pretty worthless. The Rifter and a few others were the only ones worth using. When the Tiericide dropped there was an almost instant month to month increase of 20k kills in the Frigates category and a *lot* of people liked that change.

T1s not being in any way worth using is actually a pretty big deal.

Also, small point of order, if you factor in reload a Caracal does something like 100 DPS with Rapid Lights, not 300, because the reload on those things is abominable.
Scialt
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#48 - 2017-05-11 13:00:42 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:


Couple of quick points here.

First off, yes Inties are more popular than T1 Frigates, but not by as much as you might suppose. Interceptors as a class pulled in ~85k kills on average Feb-April. In that same time looking at *just* T1 Frigates (no Faction of any kind) they pulled in something like 70k kills (I'm estimating since there's no Just T1 group on ZKill) and for losses they got ~43k to the Inty 17-18k. That means that while they're certainly less effective (and there's probably a fair number of NPC and Cyno losses in the T1 data) they're absolutely getting used.

If you recall all the way back to 2012 when the Tiericide first kicked off most T1 Frigates were pretty worthless. The Rifter and a few others were the only ones worth using. When the Tiericide dropped there was an almost instant month to month increase of 20k kills in the Frigates category and a *lot* of people liked that change.

T1s not being in any way worth using is actually a pretty big deal.

Also, small point of order, if you factor in reload a Caracal does something like 100 DPS with Rapid Lights, not 300, because the reload on those things is abominable.


Again, I'm talking about fleet usage here. I use T1 frigates... in FW novice plexes. They're fun and cost little to lose. T1 frigates get used because of that cheapness... and because T2 frigates aren't allowed in those plexes anyway. But the point with interceptors that you proved with the numbers you posted is that they get used more despite costing 50-100 times as much as the T1 frigate. The reason is they are enough better to warrant the usage.

Here's the problem with the AF. Right now if I'm in a fleet and I'm a damage dealer to smaller ships and caring some about cost... I use T1 cruisers... usually a Vexor or Caracal (due to both having easy damage application to smaller enemies). I'm not worried about tackling the opponent... the interceptors do that. Even if I were in a Rupture or Omen or Thorax... I'd rely on my tackler to web the enemy so my medium guns could tear it up much faster than an AF with small guns would. I simply can't see a benefit to using an AF that costs three times as much as the cruiser for the damage dealing role in a fleet.

I'm not sure I can conceive of a scenario where I would chose to use an AF over an Interceptor or T1 cruiser right now. But if you made the AF cost the amount of the T1 cruiser (and thus 1/3rd of an Interceptor)... I probably would use it in certain situations (a tankier but less effective tackler or damage roles when I don't have someone tackling for me). It's not worth it at the current price.

You could add utility and leave the price alone. But it's trickier to get that balance right than just changing the cost to manufacture.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#49 - 2017-05-11 17:30:59 UTC
except you can't just look at one area of the game and exclude the rest.


you may be using this as an idea for them to be a cheaper option in fleets and even if it were true that t1 frigs are not also used for this. lowering the price of AF to that level would cut t1 frigs out of solo as well. with a price point that low there would simply be no reason to use the t1 frigates in eve other than skills
James Zimmer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2017-05-11 21:59:14 UTC
Ships become popular because they are the best option for something that matters. For example, interceptors are the best option for moving fast and avoiding fights that you don't want take, or getting to fights that you do want to take. They can instawarp, go really fast, are nullified etc. When it comes to weapons and tank, they're little better (if at all) than a T1 frigate, but since they're the best at something useful (going fast), they're still extremely useful.

Assault frigates are also the best at something: Mitigating damage. A fleet of assault frigs supported by frig logi is extremely hard to kill. I've flown enough frig logi to know that T3Ds don't hold a candle next to an assault frig's ability to survive. There's only one problem: Simply surviving isn't very useful and AFs do little but survive.

Even if assault frigs were the price of a Vexor, a Vexor is still better because while it can't survive quite as well in most fights, it can dish out a useful amount of DPS and put a useful amount of nuet pressure on something. A Rupture can shoot at a useful range and hit with a useful amount of alpha. A Hyena can web from a useful distance. Even a Maulus can shorten lock ranges to a useful degree.

Unrivaled survivability is a good base on which to build a ship; the question that needs to be answered is now that you've survived, what do you do that isn't already taken by some other specialty? Someone mentioned a fast-cycling MJD. I think that would be good, along with very high natural scan res, so you can jump/tackle very quickly, and swapping the utility high for a mid so you actually have enough slots for an MJD, prop mod and tackle. Maybe you could even give the MJD a tunable jump distances, like 35 for a standard jump and 50 with heat. It would make them great at catching traditional kiters, and give them utility at providing a scram on MWDing targets that have already been pointed by interceptors without being forced to get in a dangerous tail-chase (warp to ceptor, align to enemy ship, jump in front of it, tackle). Maybe a 1-2 second spool time and 20-30 seconds cycle time.
Deckel
Black Thorne Corporation
#51 - 2017-05-12 06:45:41 UTC
James Zimmer wrote:

Unrivaled survivability is a good base on which to build a ship


So, for building a role for the AF, you start with survivability and either expand upon it with something like ewar or smartbomb resistance, or leverage it with a special ability, like a micro jump, smartbomb bonus, or a support ability like remote boosters of some kind.

The other option could be to enhance the limits of the ship with Heating bonuses to give stronger, and/or longer lasting heating bonuses.
-one idea for this would be to allow a double overheat by activating a mode to apply heat damage to the hull, as well as the module, thus doubling the heating bonus that modules apply
Kenrailae
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#52 - 2017-05-12 07:36:05 UTC
We elected THIS to the CSM? 0.o


I hear the Presidency is taking applications.


Nerf the **** out of T3D's, and add an OH effect(Not module damage reduction or duration) bonus. Job done.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

James Zimmer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2017-05-12 07:36:38 UTC
Deckel wrote:
James Zimmer wrote:

Unrivaled survivability is a good base on which to build a ship


So, for building a role for the AF, you start with survivability and either expand upon it with something like ewar or smartbomb resistance, or leverage it with a special ability, like a micro jump, smartbomb bonus, or a support ability like remote boosters of some kind.

The other option could be to enhance the limits of the ship with Heating bonuses to give stronger, and/or longer lasting heating bonuses.
-one idea for this would be to allow a double overheat by activating a mode to apply heat damage to the hull, as well as the module, thus doubling the heating bonus that modules apply


I've seen heating bonuses suggested before and I don't think it's a bad option. It would just have to have some significant downsides so it doesn't simply wind up being better than other stuff. One of the suggestions I've heard is massive heat bonuses, with a significant increase in heat damage that you take, so you're great at short fights but struggle with sustained fights.
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