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The CSM – Council of Sov. Management.

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2017-04-19 02:54:26 UTC
Democracy sucks?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Kirell
Treasure Hunter Enterprises
#22 - 2017-04-19 02:57:50 UTC
Alan Mathison wrote:
>Eve is dying...

After 7 years of playing this game, I've found that when a post starts with that phrase, it's an excellent indication that the author has no idea what they're talking about.



So you started playing in 2010...


well that's cute...

Ahem, 2005.

I've been here through it all.

and when you see the market in high sec start to die (low volumes, few sales hard to move items...)

That is the #1 indication the game is collapsing.

But hey, don't ask me, ask CCP's economist. Oh wait, didn't they lay him off?

Kirell
Treasure Hunter Enterprises
#23 - 2017-04-19 03:04:09 UTC
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Magnus Jax wrote:
[quote=Mina Sebiestar][quote]I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.


ets and various space weapon armaments I stuffed in other ppl faces I don't think you know what are you talking about.

Will it have infinitely better PVE yes
Will it be a PVE game only no it won't
Will it have more skillful PVP yes it will and by very definition more complex f1smacking won't get you anywhere.



Don't forget it will also have multi crew ships that require different people engaging in different jobs all being integral to the survival of said ship.

And that the Bengal carrier is nearly 1 kilometer in length..... that's a hell of a run.

Simply put, even if SC is half of what the man claims it's going to be, EVE will be left behind by many.

the numbers don't lie... it's already happening.

No one is saying EVE is just going to drop dead and stop existing. But it will take a huge hit in subs.
Soel Reit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2017-04-19 03:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Soel Reit
Kirell wrote:
Alan Mathison wrote:
>Eve is dying...

After 7 years of playing this game, I've found that when a post starts with that phrase, it's an excellent indication that the author has no idea what they're talking about.



So you started playing in 2010...


well that's cute...

Ahem, 2005.

I've been here through it all.

and when you see the market in high sec start to die (low volumes, few sales hard to move items...)

That is the #1 indication the game is collapsing.

But hey, don't ask me, ask CCP's economist. Oh wait, didn't they lay him off?



it's OK!!!!!!
CCP got this! Fixing anything! Soon™

> skill injectors
> f2p
> spend the incomes on other stupid new games that nobody cares about
(oh sorry for being rude for those 10-20 people that are looking forward for those games ehehhehehe)

> make EvE great again Cool
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#25 - 2017-04-19 03:13:19 UTC
Chainsaw Plankton wrote:
CCP announced csm 12 at fanfest and I went and got a screen cap cuz noone seems to have a list anywhere http://i.imgur.com/HIxT0Un.png

their briefs or whatever you want to call them can be found here, I cba to like them directly right now https://community.eveonline.com/community/csm/candidates/

Steve is a highseccer, and sutionia and Rhiload are both small gang pvpers that seem far more interested in game balance than handing things to the big nullseccers. Noobman is a WHer, and Jin'taan wants "focus on the issues of balance and iteration on stagnant features such as PI, Faction Warfare and PvE"

there are 2 goons, 1 co2, and a NC member, of course null blocks are going to get a few in, 4/10 doesn't seem that over powering.

The issue isnt the 4/10 obvious null platforms. Its that you know for a fact that none of the other candidates DONT have other alts. It is the silent alts and where they are found that unfortunately skews this fact. This is the major issue with gaming versus real life politics. It is also an issue in a lot of other factors in Eve itself but atm we will deal with the political arena.

The misrepresentation stems from the ability to have alts and where those alts are, what mains they feed isk and stuff too, and their general political alignments. Not just on the CSM but as a whole. Its why trying to find and destroy high sec alts, high sec alt corps or neutral freighter or hauler pilots is such a big part of the game. This is simply being transferred over in a very unique way to the political arena with the CSM being the largest, most visible head.

This is a very intriguing issue, that of the alt and the virtual world making it easier to "hide" oneself, that MMOs in general have created, especially in single shard universes like Eve is where what we do effects so many others in a ripple effect. Its sociopolitical influence is astounding and a really big issue in real life. Think recounts and multivoters and fake vote casting in an electronic age.

For me this facet of Eve is so amazing to study and look at. And it covers everything, not just sociopolitics, that people come up with by "gaming" the system in these respects.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.

Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#26 - 2017-04-19 03:23:57 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Democracy sucks?
Except, it's not a democracy. The CSM has become an echo chamber for the CCP developers that are designing the game THEY would want to play. The CSM may be doing a great job to that end.

The players who feel disenfranchised by the CSM process and SOV focus need a senior level HS/LS/WH ombudsman within CCP to represent the game they would like to play.





Cade Windstalker
#27 - 2017-04-19 03:29:29 UTC
Kirell wrote:
Eve is dying, slowly. (markets are stagnant, EVE numbers are down by 30%. NA time zone doesn't even crack 20k players anymore)


I'm going to pretty much stop you right there, because peak NA time beats 40k players on the weekends regularly. You pulled that 30% number out of your rectal cavity. Markets are in no way stagnant unless you're staring at the market for Rifters and nothing else.

The game is fine, the only thing that's dying is everyone reading these hilarious attempts at explaining that the game is dying since 2004.

So far the score is:

"Eve is dying": 0

CCP: Lol
Cade Windstalker
#28 - 2017-04-19 03:33:08 UTC
Vic, this makes me a little sad I put you anywhere on my ballot.

You didn't get a spot on the CSM, or probably even very many votes, and your response is to whine on the forums and spread BS conspiracy theories about how the CSM is leaking info and useless? Really?

If you want to get on the CSM the number one trick is name recognition. If you can get that outside of a large Alliance you can absolutely get on the CSM, Steve is proof of that (and seems to have been the number 1 vote-getter this round, based on his placement on the slide show). It's just easier to get name recognition in the wider game if you get that and a decent dose of respect from within a large alliance first.

That's pretty much just how large groups work.

This post may get you a little bit of name recognition, but I rather doubt it's the sort you'd like.
Linus Gorp
Ministry of Propaganda and Morale
#29 - 2017-04-19 03:35:43 UTC
Soel Reit wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:


(The silent majority is great. They don't complain when you put something in their mouth.)


they do complain.
it's just that you are deaf enough to not hear them Cool

GET GUD


edit: or even better!
they do complain. just find useless to report the reclaims to CSM.
becouse... yea.. it's useless... the CSM i mean Cool

If they don't vote or don't do anything at all to improve the situation, then they have no right to complain in the first place.

People that can't be bothered taking a few minutes to vote don't need their interests represented. It's obvious they don't care.

When you don't know the difference between there, their, and they're, you come across as being so uneducated that your viewpoint can be safely dismissed. The literate is unlikely to learn much from the illiterate.

Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#30 - 2017-04-19 03:54:56 UTC
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
What I get from all this is that more people invested in Null actually vote.


And nothing anyone will ever do will change that. No voting system, no incentive, nothing.

it's not null sec's fault that everyone else is apathetic and unable to organize.
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#31 - 2017-04-19 05:32:45 UTC
Kirell wrote:
Eve is dying, slowly. (markets are stagnant, EVE numbers are down by 30%. NA time zone doesn't even crack 20k players anymore)

ATM EVE is just a placeholder until the greatest space sim ever (if it ever) comes out.

But if they wanted to turn EVE around it would require 3 things.

1) Reduce Sub fee or give a discount to multiple accounts. I know at least 20 people who've all complained they aren't getting value for the sub costs since EVE is a game that having multiple accounts is essential so they simply just don't play.

2) Stop screwing players over at the behest of the CSM - the CSM is not representing the majority of EVE players. They are pushing an agenda that suits the leadership of whatever group they are apart of.

3) This is what needs to change most.

Eliminate the high sec ganking of players. It's the new blood that usually suffers the most. but it's also the old blood that is trying to play in high sec to actually get some game time in where they don't have to be on high alert all the time (you know... a lot of us have kids and can't get too involved in things, so mining, ratting hauling etc in high sec at least we get a feel of having some semblance of game time.... When these people get ganked in their haulers, their mining ships or their expensive mission ships....

Since so many of them lose all their belongings to high sec gankers who are mostly just bored, and aren't looking for a return on their gank (just in it to grief/ collect a killmail) they leave and never return. CCP has bled out more players to this than anything else.

The people that do the ganking, sure they would be pissed that griefing people is no longer an option. They might quit. But I bet 99% of them would stay.

You'd also lose fewer people, and you can be damn sure people would come back knowing they can play without being hassled.

but EVE is a Niche game you'll argue....

Sorry no, it isn't. They lost that title a long time ago. Especially after it went FREE TO PLAY.

But we know CCP will not change any of this.

So the outcome will be obvious. There will be those that will hang on simply because of the investment of time in EVE.

But EVE will die down to the point it will be a shadow of it's former self.

I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.





Three points and you are wrong on all of them! Well done!
Nicolai Serkanner
Incredible.
Brave Collective
#32 - 2017-04-19 05:34:00 UTC
Orin Solette wrote:
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
What I get from all this is that more people invested in Null actually vote.

Yes, but non-voting players who are less invested into the game should be represented as well.


What? That's daft.
Djsaeu
Doomheim
#33 - 2017-04-19 05:52:09 UTC
If it ain't broke,
don't fix it.
Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2017-04-19 06:09:02 UTC
This does reflect the development of what the dev team have been working on. I didn't see a single non null change. They had huge presentations on fancy faction structure changes and null PVE content updates. Not much in any other parts of the game at all except for module tearaside. They keep tweaking the modules and want to balance modules instead of adding or fixing content generators. Its short-sighted and won't help make the game any better.

I don't know if CSM had a hand in the direction of what CCP worked on but I can't shake the feeling that everything that's been added have directly been connected to null updates and more specifically the type of changes in null that helps CEOs and there massive infrastructure blocks. All of the content added in eve have been directly catering to a extremely small minority of players that build a bunch of null infrastructures or rather gets to be involved in those decisions.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#35 - 2017-04-19 06:14:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Vic is basically correct. If the goal of the CSM is to form a representative body of the players of the game to provide feedback and insigght into game development it has completely and utterly failed. Most players are not leaders of large groups, or quasi-famous FCs, nor are they popular third-party developers or streamers who do not have to worry about income given their stream of referral income. Much of the activity that goes on in this game is not represented by these players that make up the council, even in a token fashion, and if that is the purpose the body then the manner in which it is formed, and the institution itself is completely broken.

That said, I have come to the conclusion that CCP doesn't really want a representative body in the CSM, or at least can't come up with a better way to form one. They are happy with the CSM being made up of the most engaged players and their figureheads, and to be selected by the popular will of the player base. This is of course perfectly fair, but by its nature heavily favours players that have organized into larger groups. This gives some validity to the idea the views of the CSM reflect the broadest will of the most engaged players, but it also freezes out those less engaged, or who play the game in a way that involves less people, people who also pay subscriptions. In fact these types of interactions with the game may even be in the majority in terms of total play-hours, but done in smaller groups or solo, so end up not meriting representation.

I too have no solution, but I find it strange that CCP would want to mix the in-game power struggles for imaginary space and resources with the real-world development of the game. The reality is that just because you can win a popularity contest does not mean you have useful input to offer to the development of the game, nor even that you represent anything more than a cohesive voting block, N+1 in size of another group. It therefore is of dubious value as a conduit to the players, and I think at this point I might just check out entirely. I can point to many obvious problems of proposed changes that were completely overlooked by recent CSMs with no experience in non-nullsec game play (at least as far as I can tell from the incomplete access to their interactions with CCP we are afforded).

The only plausible workaround that comes to mind is to increase the depth of the CSM to 20 or whatever to broaden the diversity. In recent years there have been many non-nullsec candidates that have come very close, only to miss by a few positions from being on the CSM. But for whatever practical reasons, CCP went the other way and shrunk the council further solidifying access and control to the largest groups in the game.

Whatever. I am resigned to the fact that the CSM is going to be a reflection of the in-game strength of player groups and not representative of the type of game play that goes on in Eve Online. As long as CCP is well aware of this and views the CSM in this light there is no problem. Many of those elected work hard, do have experience elsewhere than nullsec, and do their best to improve the game and interact with the players which is great, but representative of those players it is not. If CCP wants that, some major reform is necessary if they want to have a representative number of their more non-nullsec focused customers on the CSM.
Avaelica Kuershin
Paper Cats
#36 - 2017-04-19 06:21:27 UTC
Xcom wrote:
All of the content added in eve have been directly catering to a extremely small minority of players that build a bunch of null infrastructures or rather gets to be involved in those decisions.


I thought in EVE WE were the content and content creators.
(Sometimes playing a game where the devs load you up with tonnes of "must do content" just burns you out.)

I do see changes that are of benefit to those of us not in null-sec sov holding groups.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2017-04-19 06:58:46 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Democracy sucks?
Except, it's not a democracy.

How are CSM members appointed each year?

This thread is a complaint about how the CSM doesn't represent the whole playerbase. I agree, but it's still a democratically elected group of individuals.

Or is it not?

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#38 - 2017-04-19 07:08:28 UTC
Orin Solette wrote:
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
What I get from all this is that more people invested in Null actually vote.

Yes, but non-voting players who are less invested into the game should be represented as well. Just because you don't play in null and you have less time invested into who is running CSM, what's happening in EVE, etc. does NOT mean that your interests should not be represented at the same level.

Interesting point.

We always said the common Highsec players like miners, industrialists and mission runners who do not connect with the community and keep to themselves need to be represented in the democratic process. This is why our Supreme Protector and Saviour of Highsec, The great James 315 voted on behalf of them as a proxy when he elected himself as the Supreme Protector of Highsec.

So we already covered the democracy part for the silent minority and we don't have to repeat that part. The logical next step would now be that the Agents of the New Order of Highsec which effectively represent the Highsec population (as shown before) will get the seats in the CSM they deserve according to the share of players they represent which is estimated by prominent carebear statisticians at about 90% of the player base. I'm sure our beloved Father of the New Order, James 315 will hand pick only the best of Agents (like me for example) and send them on their journey to island to make EVE great again.

((Just in case you don't get the humour in the above post: In a democratic process, not voting is considered voting for the opposition. If you don't vote and then complain about the democratic process and even question it and demand representation anyway, you may not like what you get, EVERYONE can claim to speak for the silent minority))
Magnus Jax
#39 - 2017-04-19 07:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Magnus Jax
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Magnus Jax wrote:
Mina Sebiestar wrote:
Quote:
I know I'm waiting for that one well known space sim....I'm gone when it comes out.



This is a no-brainer really and i don't say it for or against EVE and for many choice will be clear from having a book looking at ship interior or being in ship interior watching a book.

Next gen is next

Wont waste any energy pointlessly debating but mostly agree with you.


People who play EVE because they are interested in a pure spaceship game will leave for SC the simple reason that's really the game they have been looking for. Nothing CCP can do or change to stop that from happening

People who play EVE because it's a PVP centric non-instanced sandbox about interacting with other players on a massive scale will either stay or, most likely, have a peek at SC and then come back once they got the hype out of their system because to them SC not what they're looking for in an MMO.


And BECAUSE CCP can't stop the carebears (for lack of a better word) they might as well not bother trying because by doing so they alienate the part of of their customers who love EVE for what it IS. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be improvements and updates to PVE but the "fix EVE to be PVE or I leave" is an empty threat: you're going to stay or leave regardless of what CCP does.


Not sure where make eve PVE again is coming from or who you are responding but SC is about much more than spaceships and with amount of bullets and various space weapon armaments I stuffed in other ppl faces I don't think you know what are you talking about.

Will it have infinitely better PVE yes
Will it be a PVE game only no it won't
Will it have more skillful PVP yes it will and by very definition more complex f1smacking won't get you anywhere.



The PVE bit wasn't specifically aimed at you but more a reply to Kirell and others like him. EVE's PVP is more than F1 smashing, anyone who's experience doesn't extend beyond that should probably leave the clown alliance he's in. It'll be a different skill set obviously, some people prefer the more direct pvp (as in Elite) while others prefer the more RTS-like style of EVE. I play both and enjoy both for different reasons.


Don't forget that SC will be heavily instanced and that, just like Elite Dangerous, you can opt out of "online play/pvp" altogether. It's effectively Freelancer with 3D interiors and an online option. Its economy won't compare to EVE's, its instancing will limit how and how many people will be able to interact with each other. So again, what makes EVE stand out is its non-instanced concept and the freedom of choice in regards to the types of interactions you can have with other players. SC, while sounding to be really cool, will not be on par on those things.


On top of that, right now we don't know a whole lot and there's mostly just talk about concepts and ideal situations, Roberts has always been good at talking the talk. Until the finished game actually does as promised (or does what people hope/expect it to do) I'd say to be careful with the hype.
Xcom
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2017-04-19 07:46:39 UTC
Avaelica Kuershin wrote:
Xcom wrote:
All of the content added in eve have been directly catering to a extremely small minority of players that build a bunch of null infrastructures or rather gets to be involved in those decisions.


I thought in EVE WE were the content and content creators.
(Sometimes playing a game where the devs load you up with tonnes of "must do content" just burns you out.)

I do see changes that are of benefit to those of us not in null-sec sov holding groups.

Content creation isn't what we do. Devs add content like the base core engine then the smaller mechanics that branch off. Its an illusion thinking that we are creating the content while we are just using the tools that cleverly have been designed to act in synergy. If players created there own content it would be modding, which isn't possible.