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Blood Raider Shipyards from Team Phenomenon (YC 119.4)

First post
Author
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#61 - 2017-04-22 14:35:20 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:
mkint wrote:
There is no value for CCP to provide new and interesting content. Not unless it can be used as part of their "million-man-fights" marketing plan. This whole thing is just to get nullbears to fleet up so CCP can use the resulting videos to advertise the game more. EVE is going to have the first 1,000 man PVE fight, and they are going to milk that for all the publicity they can. And for publicity value, it is worth far more than "we got new missions!" ever will have. Meanwhile the other 299,000 players will have literally zero benefit from this, or any other upcoming PVE. Keep your expectations low. Player retention is not a significant priority at CCP.



Whilst I agree CCP have historically let PVE out of null or for nullbear vacations to HS, lapse "somewhat".
i do not share your pessimism for the future, they Know (god I hope they do) that rebuilding PVE in HS, is more than just adding new missions, and until they sort out the biggest problem, there is no point adding anything that involves players joining together as all that would mean is more opportunity for "certain people" to drive people out of the game at an accelerated rate.

Winter is going to require, brave, imaginative decisions, and the tools currently being created, excellent though they are, will not achieve CCP's and our goals on their own.
There is no way they will announce those too much in advance, simply enabling those wardec over-farming groups who suck on the teat of unending free kills, to get their propoganda mill going, Whilst Hoping to continue to pull up every new shoot, before it can grow a single leaf.

CCP will either revitalise HS, or burn the last thread of hope keeping many in the game.

Bad, or overcautious decisions here, will have permanent consequences.

They have the will, and backing of CCP Seagull to be courageous. They have shown they can be elsewhere, now it is time for the majority of the players in EVE to benefit from that courage.


You don't need a themed winter expansion to add more scripted missions to the game for the first time since 2010. And this is just the very first thing CCP should do in order to sort the mess they've created about PvE.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2017-04-22 14:46:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Alderson Point wrote:
mkint wrote:
There is no value for CCP to provide new and interesting content. Not unless it can be used as part of their "million-man-fights" marketing plan. This whole thing is just to get nullbears to fleet up so CCP can use the resulting videos to advertise the game more. EVE is going to have the first 1,000 man PVE fight, and they are going to milk that for all the publicity they can. And for publicity value, it is worth far more than "we got new missions!" ever will have. Meanwhile the other 299,000 players will have literally zero benefit from this, or any other upcoming PVE. Keep your expectations low. Player retention is not a significant priority at CCP.



Whilst I agree CCP have historically let PVE out of null or for nullbear vacations to HS, lapse "somewhat".
i do not share your pessimism for the future, they Know (god I hope they do) that rebuilding PVE in HS, is more than just adding new missions, and until they sort out the biggest problem, there is no point adding anything that involves players joining together as all that would mean is more opportunity for "certain people" to drive people out of the game at an accelerated rate.

Winter is going to require, brave, imaginative decisions, and the tools currently being created, excellent though they are, will not achieve CCP's and our goals on their own.
There is no way they will announce those too much in advance, simply enabling those wardec over-farming groups who suck on the teat of unending free kills, to get their propoganda mill going, Whilst Hoping to continue to pull up every new shoot, before it can grow a single leaf.

CCP will either revitalise HS, or burn the last thread of hope keeping many in the game.

Bad, or overcautious decisions here, will have permanent consequences.

They have the will, and backing of CCP Seagull to be courageous. They have shown they can be elsewhere, now it is time for the majority of the players in EVE to benefit from that courage.


You don't need a themed winter expansion to add more scripted missions to the game for the first time since 2010. And this is just the very first thing CCP should do in order to sort the mess they've created about PvE.



The very first thing is to make it a sane and rational choice for players to do things together in HS, then they can gain the benefit of applying the new tools to missions and other PVE content. Doing anything else will at best leave them being totally ignored by PVE players, or at worst fuelling the massive frustration that currently exists.
The current wardec system is arguably the most anti-PVE and anti-social and divisive mechanic within the entire history of EVE still remaining, Ganking is a trivial annoyance in comparison. It is almost designed to actively harm and punish inter-player cooperation. And THAT is the problem.

If it remains in place, ALL the new content created with such labour, imagination and creativity by CCP will count for nothing and they will then decide, that HS players don't appreciate their efforts and then sadly ignore HS for another ten years.
The Current Wardec system needs nuking from orbit. Urgently and In conjunction with their amazing new work we hope and dream of seeing. If we and CCP are to have it succeed, and HS to thrive.

To do anything else is to put a smiley faced cartoon sticker on a Fatal wound.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
Initiative Mercenaries
#63 - 2017-04-22 18:08:10 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:


There is no entitlement. This highly sophisticated and extremely niche PvE content is being developed in lieu of the meat-and-potatoes PvE CCP stopped adding in 2010. And by any measure accessible to a baseliner like me, that decisison is proving harmful for the game.


Which PvE are you talking about? The meat-and-potatoes PvE of Null-Sec where one has to fit a ship with the best modules to take down the highest level DEDs, or the High-Sec PvE based on Mission running and the like?

EVE is too big a game for a player to restrict themselves to just one style of game-play. People have alts for when they want to switch up what they want to do in the game i.e. a guy can have a main for PvE and PvP, but have an alt who specializes in mining and Planetary Interactions, and some will have alts dedicated to profiting from the market in High-Sec, or one who operates as an Incursion runner. Some players even have alts specialized for flying Capitals all the way up to Titans.

The way you call yourself a "Baseliner", however, makes me think you seem to not have any alts at all (which I would assume is nigh-impossible). Are you honestly trying to tell me that you don't have an alt in Null-Sec in any known alliance that can take part in these Sotiyo Shipyard battles?

Panther X
Dreadnoughtz Conclave
Requiem Eternal
#64 - 2017-04-23 01:17:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Panther X
Like I said, could we get a moveme command to get over there? I'm currently 80 jumps away...
pretty pleaasse?

My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Kyttn
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
#65 - 2017-04-24 05:17:49 UTC
First I apologize to anyone who may be reading this if my questions have already been answered elsewhere

1) How exactly will these BPC's drop once this feature is released? Will they just be in a cargo container, where anyone can come by and ninja salvage it if they are fast and sneaky enough, regardless of whether or not they just participated in the epic battle that most likely preceded the Shipyard's destruction? It seems like an awfully unfair and random way to determine who will get this multi-billion isk blueprint if so

2) What will happen if players bring capital ships? Will the Shipyards respond with capital fleets of their own? Will they have doomsdays and fighters too? Or will the Shipyards simply just spawn enough non-capital ships necessary to counter the player capitals which are on field?

3) Will the Shipyards be spawning warp disruption bubbles when in Null sec, and will player warp disruption bubbles work on NPC ships to keep them from pinging to a more strategic location?

4) Will NPC ships have access to the same ships and modules that players do? Can NPC ships cloak up, and will they have stealth bombers? What about ECM ships like the Falcon? Will there be NPC ships with MJD capabiliity? Or Bastion modules? What about command boosts?

5) Will NPC ships have drones, and if so will the NPCs pull the drones back to the ships if they start to take damage (like an alert pilot should)?

6) It's been said that the ships the NPC's are using are drawn directly from how a player would fit a similar ship. But what about the "pilot" flying the NPC ship. Ex: Capsuleers can get bonuses for flying a ship based on their skills, as well as for using implants and combat boosters. Do the Shipyard NPC's get any such bonuses?

7) How far away from the Shipyard can NPC ships/fleets be kited before giving up the chase and returning to base?

8) If the Shipyard AI is always escalating to match the current threat, what happens when the player fleet starts losing significant numbers of ships, or if some or all of the player fleet cloaks or warps off entirely? Will the Shipyard eventually despawn/dock the excess numbers of ships, and if so how long will that take? Or will there always be an ever increasing number of ships that player will simply have to match once spawned?

9) Am I right to understand that once this feature goes live that there will only ever be 1 shipyard in all of New Eden at any given time? Will it just sit there indefinitely until someone happens to stumble upon the NPC mining operation and then bother to scan down the hauler?

10) If these shipyards will always be spawning enough ships to counter whatever numbers of ships are brought by players, then doesn't it seem logical that the answer is for the players to NOT bring large numbers of ships, and instead to focus on just bringing a small number of well-trained and well-equipped pilots to keep the Shipyard from spawning too many defenses? What would happen if just a few capsuleers tried to attack a shipyard? Or if someone tried to solo it?

I apologize again for any previously answered questions, and if any of these questions seemed stupid, uneccesary, or obvious
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2017-04-24 09:54:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Larrikin
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

...the whole thing I've asked Team Phenomenon is why they develop PvE content that it's not accessible to PvE players. Someone must be making this decission for some reason. Who, why or what sense does it, are a mistery.


I'd suggest you watch this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zho8nopiluc

The TL;DR however is that the tools we're using to create the Blood Raider Shipyards can be used to make content at different sizes and in different locations. Solo content in Highsec, small gang content in WH space, or fleet content n Nullsec.

We're releasing the Blood Raider Shipyards first because we want to test these tools in the harshest possible environment, v's 100's of players. Once we're happy with that, we'll be building follow on content in other areas of space.

Kyttn wrote:
1) How exactly will these BPC's drop once this feature is released? Will they just be in a cargo container, where anyone can come by and ninja salvage it if they are fast and sneaky enough, regardless of whether or not they just participated in the epic battle that most likely preceded the Shipyard's destruction? It seems like an awfully unfair and random way to determine who will get this multi-billion isk blueprint if so

They drop in the wreck of the Sotyio. Yes, anyone can come along and steal the BPC. The Blood Raider XL EC isn't connected to the Upwell Asset Safety Network, so like in WH space, the items drop. Its up to players to secure them in whatever way they see fit.

Kyttn wrote:
2) What will happen if players bring capital ships? Will the Shipyards respond with capital fleets of their own? Will they have doomsdays and fighters too? Or will the Shipyards simply just spawn enough non-capital ships necessary to counter the player capitals which are on field?

In time, the Blood Raiders will respond with capitals of their own. That may not be at release though but I would expect it will happen soon afterward.

Kyttn wrote:
3) Will the Shipyards be spawning warp disruption bubbles when in Null sec, and will player warp disruption bubbles work on NPC ships to keep them from pinging to a more strategic location?

At this time, Blood Raiders won't drop bubbles. However their ships follow the rules of all player ships, so they can't warp inside a player dropped bubble.

Kyttn wrote:
4) Will NPC ships have access to the same ships and modules that players do? Can NPC ships cloak up, and will they have stealth bombers? What about ECM ships like the Falcon? Will there be NPC ships with MJD capabiliity? Or Bastion modules? What about command boosts?

I would suggest checking out EVE Fanfest 2017 - Phenomenal PvE for some of the answers to your questions regarding fitting and how it works with NPCs. This won't answer everything (such as stealth bombers, ECM ships, MJDs, etc), for the answers to those questions you'll need to find out yourself. :)

Kyttn wrote:
5) Will NPC ships have drones, and if so will the NPCs pull the drones back to the ships if they start to take damage (like an alert pilot should)?

No, the NPCs won't have drones, or fighters.

Kyttn wrote:
6) It's been said that the ships the NPC's are using are drawn directly from how a player would fit a similar ship. But what about the "pilot" flying the NPC ship. Ex: Capsuleers can get bonuses for flying a ship based on their skills, as well as for using implants and combat boosters. Do the Shipyard NPC's get any such bonuses?

The NPC ships have the equivalent to all level 5 skills. The Shipyard has the equivalent of all level 0 skills.

Kyttn wrote:
7) How far away from the Shipyard can NPC ships/fleets be kited before giving up the chase and returning to base?

8) If the Shipyard AI is always escalating to match the current threat, what happens when the player fleet starts losing significant numbers of ships, or if some or all of the player fleet cloaks or warps off entirely? Will the Shipyard eventually despawn/dock the excess numbers of ships, and if so how long will that take? Or will there always be an ever increasing number of ships that player will simply have to match once spawned?

These are things you'll have to find out :)

Kyttn wrote:
9) Am I right to understand that once this feature goes live that there will only ever be 1 shipyard in all of New Eden at any given time? Will it just sit there indefinitely until someone happens to stumble upon the NPC mining operation and then bother to scan down the hauler?

There will be only one Blood Raider Shipyard on TQ at a time.

Kyttn wrote:
10) If these shipyards will always be spawning enough ships to counter whatever numbers of ships are brought by players, then doesn't it seem logical that the answer is for the players to NOT bring large numbers of ships, and instead to focus on just bringing a small number of well-trained and well-equipped pilots to keep the Shipyard from spawning too many defenses? What would happen if just a few capsuleers tried to attack a shipyard? Or if someone tried to solo it?

Bringing a smaller number of well-trained and well-equipped pilots is certainly a valid tactic. There is a minimum number of defenders the shipyard will spawn regardless of how many attackers there are on field however.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Kyttn
Forging Industries
Silent Infinity
#67 - 2017-04-24 10:11:33 UTC
Wow, thank you sir. That definitely clears up a lot for me, and hopefully for others as well
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#68 - 2017-04-24 14:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

...the whole thing I've asked Team Phenomenon is why they develop PvE content that it's not accessible to PvE players. Someone must be making this decission for some reason. Who, why or what sense does it, are a mistery.


I'd suggest you watch this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zho8nopiluc

The TL;DR however is that the tools we're using to create the Blood Raider Shipyards can be used to make content at different sizes and in different locations. Solo content in Highsec, small gang content in WH space, or fleet content n Nullsec.

We're releasing the Blood Raider Shipyards first because we want to test these tools in the harshest possible environment, v's 100's of players. Once we're happy with that, we'll be building follow on content in other areas of space.


Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#69 - 2017-04-24 16:24:44 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.


Hi Jenn, thankyou for your post. It is a little off topic, but I think its valuable to answer it.

TL;DR: All new PvE content won't be PvP-like.

I understand where your coming from. Sometimes, you just want to watch Netflix, or chat with your mates, and only half pay attention while running some Sanctums, or running The Blockade.
And yes, much of our new content has had a considerably higher difficulty cap than previous content. I can assure you we recognize the value of both.

We understand the importance of 'low engagement content', and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

Additionally, there is the question of Mastery. I've spoken about this at round-tables at Fanfest and EVE Vegas. Players have Mastered content, for example, the Mission system. They've spent the time to find the right ships, skills, fits and tactics to optimize that content. Changing that content has a cost, it reduces or removes the investment someone has made in mastering a system. This is a large part of what attracts many people to EVE Online, complex systems to master. This doesn't mean we'll never change missions, or any other system, but we do recognize the cost it has. And sometimes, this Master is just kinda bad...its not optimization and player skill, its just figuring out the game system (i.e. mission blitzing).

Lastly, no matter how hard we try, I doubt we'll ever get to the standards of player flown ships. Theoretically, its possible, but we can't have a super computer to run every NPC in the game :) And, there is just mental difference between knowing their is another person controlling the ship your killing (or getting killed by) than a computer.


Much of the push for adding the Mining Ops, and Blood Raider Shipyards has less to do with the specific PvE content and much more to do with the tools we're creating. How NPC's chose their targets and maneuver around the battlefield. NPCs respecting EWar resistances, or being effected by sensor dampeners and energy neutralizers. NPC's using capacitor when they activate a webifier or repairer.
We're creating these tools at the highest possible difficulty level, trying to replicate PvP as much as possible. Ensuring these tools are rock solid. But these tools will be very useful for lower-intensity PvE as well. A Rifter fit with Civilian autocannons still needs to find the right range to orbit its target at, and respond appropriately when you use a Tracking Disruptor on it. We're striving for internally consistent PvE.

We want to provide a variety of PvE and PvPvE (which is probably where the Blood Raider Shipyards fall) for EVE Online. Casual, High Risk-High Reward, Group Based, Solo, and everything in between.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#70 - 2017-04-24 16:27:16 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.


Hi Jenn, thankyou for your post. It is a little off topic, but I think its valuable to answer it.

TL;DR: All new PvE content won't be PvP-like.

I understand where your coming from. Sometimes, you just want to watch Netflix, or chat with your mates, and only half pay attention while running some Sanctums, or running The Blockade.
And yes, much of our new content has had a considerably higher difficulty cap than previous content. I can assure you we recognize the value of both.

We understand the importance of 'low engagement content', and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

Additionally, there is the question of Mastery. I've spoken about this at round-tables at Fanfest and EVE Vegas. Players have Mastered content, for example, the Mission system. They've spent the time to find the right ships, skills, fits and tactics to optimize that content. Changing that content has a cost, it reduces or removes the investment someone has made in mastering a system. This is a large part of what attracts many people to EVE Online, complex systems to master. This doesn't mean we'll never change missions, or any other system, but we do recognize the cost it has. And sometimes, this Master is just kinda bad...its not optimization and player skill, its just figuring out the game system (i.e. mission blitzing).

Lastly, no matter how hard we try, I doubt we'll ever get to the standards of player flown ships. Theoretically, its possible, but we can't have a super computer to run every NPC in the game :) And, there is just mental difference between knowing their is another person controlling the ship your killing (or getting killed by) than a computer.


Much of the push for adding the Mining Ops, and Blood Raider Shipyards has less to do with the specific PvE content and much more to do with the tools we're creating. How NPC's chose their targets and maneuver around the battlefield. NPCs respecting EWar resistances, or being effected by sensor dampeners and energy neutralizers. NPC's using capacitor when they activate a webifier or repairer.
We're creating these tools at the highest possible difficulty level, trying to replicate PvP as much as possible. Ensuring these tools are rock solid. But these tools will be very useful for lower-intensity PvE as well. A Rifter fit with Civilian autocannons still needs to find the right range to orbit its target at, and respond appropriately when you use a Tracking Disruptor on it. We're striving for internally consistent PvE.

We want to provide a variety of PvE and PvPvE (which is probably where the Blood Raider Shipyards fall) for EVE Online. Casual, High Risk-High Reward, Group Based, Solo, and everything in between.


Oh just shut up and take my money already, darn it.
Circumstantial Evidence
#71 - 2017-04-24 16:46:33 UTC
Thanks CCP Larrikin, for taking the time to make such detailed replies!

I like what they did with the burner missions: high difficulty, high risk - but completely optional: does not affect your agent standings if you decline. I hope newer, high risk highsec mission content will be just as optional. Perhaps when CCP has enough exotic new stuff, they will introduce new "special ops" agents, so player expectations can be met and set appropriately.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2017-04-24 21:38:39 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.


Hi Jenn, thankyou for your post. It is a little off topic, but I think its valuable to answer it.

TL;DR: All new PvE content won't be PvP-like.

I understand where your coming from. Sometimes, you just want to watch Netflix, or chat with your mates, and only half pay attention while running some Sanctums, or running The Blockade.
And yes, much of our new content has had a considerably higher difficulty cap than previous content. I can assure you we recognize the value of both.

We understand the importance of 'low engagement content', and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

Additionally, there is the question of Mastery. I've spoken about this at round-tables at Fanfest and EVE Vegas. Players have Mastered content, for example, the Mission system. They've spent the time to find the right ships, skills, fits and tactics to optimize that content. Changing that content has a cost, it reduces or removes the investment someone has made in mastering a system. This is a large part of what attracts many people to EVE Online, complex systems to master. This doesn't mean we'll never change missions, or any other system, but we do recognize the cost it has. And sometimes, this Master is just kinda bad...its not optimization and player skill, its just figuring out the game system (i.e. mission blitzing).

Lastly, no matter how hard we try, I doubt we'll ever get to the standards of player flown ships. Theoretically, its possible, but we can't have a super computer to run every NPC in the game :) And, there is just mental difference between knowing their is another person controlling the ship your killing (or getting killed by) than a computer.


Much of the push for adding the Mining Ops, and Blood Raider Shipyards has less to do with the specific PvE content and much more to do with the tools we're creating. How NPC's chose their targets and maneuver around the battlefield. NPCs respecting EWar resistances, or being effected by sensor dampeners and energy neutralizers. NPC's using capacitor when they activate a webifier or repairer.
We're creating these tools at the highest possible difficulty level, trying to replicate PvP as much as possible. Ensuring these tools are rock solid. But these tools will be very useful for lower-intensity PvE as well. A Rifter fit with Civilian autocannons still needs to find the right range to orbit its target at, and respond appropriately when you use a Tracking Disruptor on it. We're striving for internally consistent PvE.

We want to provide a variety of PvE and PvPvE (which is probably where the Blood Raider Shipyards fall) for EVE Online. Casual, High Risk-High Reward, Group Based, Solo, and everything in between.



Thank you, that is really quite reassuring.

We were getting worried that "some people" had been exclusively listened too and the wider game base was being ignored.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#73 - 2017-04-24 22:12:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.


Hi Jenn, thankyou for your post. It is a little off topic, but I think its valuable to answer it.

TL;DR: All new PvE content won't be PvP-like.

I understand where your coming from. Sometimes, you just want to watch Netflix, or chat with your mates, and only half pay attention while running some Sanctums, or running The Blockade.
And yes, much of our new content has had a considerably higher difficulty cap than previous content. I can assure you we recognize the value of both.

We understand the importance of 'low engagement content', and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

Additionally, there is the question of Mastery. I've spoken about this at round-tables at Fanfest and EVE Vegas. Players have Mastered content, for example, the Mission system. They've spent the time to find the right ships, skills, fits and tactics to optimize that content. Changing that content has a cost, it reduces or removes the investment someone has made in mastering a system. This is a large part of what attracts many people to EVE Online, complex systems to master. This doesn't mean we'll never change missions, or any other system, but we do recognize the cost it has. And sometimes, this Master is just kinda bad...its not optimization and player skill, its just figuring out the game system (i.e. mission blitzing).


Mastery also haves another face: people who have mastered how to build the same jigsaw puzzle for the 100th time without growing (too) bored of doing it.

I don't know what you will think of this mastery, but to me it was one of the reasons that kept me playing EVE Online for 8 years.

Not the fact that missions can be optimized in one "blitz" way, but the fact that they can be sub-optimized and tinkered with in endless ways because you know the picture and how the jigsaw puzzle will look once completed, and there's a myriad creative ways of reaching that (satisfactory) conclussion.

And that's the exact opposite of the most lucrative thing I've done in EVE, Drifter Incursions. I was in a fleet that harvested n milion ISK per hour, two hours a day monday to friday and two fleet ops (thus four hours) on Saturday and Sunday. And it was always the same drill as any single mistake could spell doom. It was boring beyond words, the less sandboxy thing I've ever done in EVE.

Thus it turned that the more challenging a content is, the more boring it becomes once resolved, whereas less challenging content allows more diversity of approaches and becomes a better sandbox to try different tools.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#74 - 2017-04-24 22:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Alderson Point wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Thank you for posting this and I won't derail you thread beyond this single comment about what you all are doing. I can't speak for Indahmawar Fazmarai as we don't agree on much, but one thing we do agree on is that it seems you guys are making an awful lot of "PVE" content that resembles PVP. I'm a pro-pvp PVE player (ie I like how pvp and pve interact in EVE and I counsel other PVE players to always keep in mind that ship to ship PVP can happen at any time so be aware of it, even embrace it), but I have a problem with the direction you guys seem to be going in. If a PVE player wanted a PVP like experience, we that's what PVP is for.

In other words, some of us like saving the Damsel, or attacking that Pirate Haven for the umpteen-millionth time, or Dreading that Pirate named Scarlett.

I'm sure you guys have internal metrics about what dedicated PVE players do across New Eden, and while I don't know for sure, I'd bet that if you looked at those you'd see a lot of people doing "old" content (like regular mining, anomalies, lvl 4 missions, DED complexes) even when they have access to newer stuff (like Burners, Drifters, Sleepers, incursions, Mining operations etc).
That old content has value because it lets you engineer and experiment with fits and tactics and new approaches (mainly because it is in fact mostly static in nature, you know what it's going to be every time you experience it). The newer PVE like Burners and Drifters and Mining Operations and it seems these new shipyards involve a higher potential for ship loss and act more like PVP, which actually forces PVE players down a narrower path than the "old" PVE does.

I know some vocal people have been saying for a long time how PVE should work like PVP, but not all of us enjoy that kind of thing, there is real value in the old style PVE that shouldn't be forgotten.


Hi Jenn, thankyou for your post. It is a little off topic, but I think its valuable to answer it.

TL;DR: All new PvE content won't be PvP-like.

I understand where your coming from. Sometimes, you just want to watch Netflix, or chat with your mates, and only half pay attention while running some Sanctums, or running The Blockade.
And yes, much of our new content has had a considerably higher difficulty cap than previous content. I can assure you we recognize the value of both.

We understand the importance of 'low engagement content', and we believe we can deliver that while staying true to our push for player-like-NPCs. We can use a couple of different strategies at lowering their power level. Low skills, poor tactics, bad fittings, providing you with allies or handicapping them in other ways.

Additionally, there is the question of Mastery. I've spoken about this at round-tables at Fanfest and EVE Vegas. Players have Mastered content, for example, the Mission system. They've spent the time to find the right ships, skills, fits and tactics to optimize that content. Changing that content has a cost, it reduces or removes the investment someone has made in mastering a system. This is a large part of what attracts many people to EVE Online, complex systems to master. This doesn't mean we'll never change missions, or any other system, but we do recognize the cost it has. And sometimes, this Master is just kinda bad...its not optimization and player skill, its just figuring out the game system (i.e. mission blitzing).

Lastly, no matter how hard we try, I doubt we'll ever get to the standards of player flown ships. Theoretically, its possible, but we can't have a super computer to run every NPC in the game :) And, there is just mental difference between knowing their is another person controlling the ship your killing (or getting killed by) than a computer.


Much of the push for adding the Mining Ops, and Blood Raider Shipyards has less to do with the specific PvE content and much more to do with the tools we're creating. How NPC's chose their targets and maneuver around the battlefield. NPCs respecting EWar resistances, or being effected by sensor dampeners and energy neutralizers. NPC's using capacitor when they activate a webifier or repairer.
We're creating these tools at the highest possible difficulty level, trying to replicate PvP as much as possible. Ensuring these tools are rock solid. But these tools will be very useful for lower-intensity PvE as well. A Rifter fit with Civilian autocannons still needs to find the right range to orbit its target at, and respond appropriately when you use a Tracking Disruptor on it. We're striving for internally consistent PvE.

We want to provide a variety of PvE and PvPvE (which is probably where the Blood Raider Shipyards fall) for EVE Online. Casual, High Risk-High Reward, Group Based, Solo, and everything in between.



Thank you, that is really quite reassuring.

We were getting worried that "some people" had been exclusively listened too and the wider game base was being ignored.


To be frank, I still don't know who exactly CCP asked about the PvE added since Incarna, or about the winter thing.

I've been figuratively sitting by that phone for 7 years and still nothing... would be horrible to have missed the chance. Sad
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#75 - 2017-04-25 06:22:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

...the whole thing I've asked Team Phenomenon is why they develop PvE content that it's not accessible to PvE players. Someone must be making this decission for some reason. Who, why or what sense does it, are a mistery.


I'd suggest you watch this > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zho8nopiluc

The TL;DR however is that the tools we're using to create the Blood Raider Shipyards can be used to make content at different sizes and in different locations. Solo content in Highsec, small gang content in WH space, or fleet content n Nullsec.

We're releasing the Blood Raider Shipyards first because we want to test these tools in the harshest possible environment, v's 100's of players. Once we're happy with that, we'll be building follow on content in other areas of space.(...)


The problem I see with developing complex tools is that they might become a solution in search for a problem, aka "if all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail".

An AI that can effectively overwhelm a well organized and FC'ed PvP fleet is a challenging achievement, but, you don't need it to overwhelm a new player in a poorly fit T1 frigate, and first of all, there should come the consideration of whether you want to overwhelm new players by showing them how even NPC AI plays EVE better than them. P

More seriously, what this player doubts (and according to them, other players doubt too) is whether CCP knows what problem do they want to fix about PvE, because as far as my experience goes, all new PvE is added out of the blue with results which, as JennASide pointed, are less than optimal.
CCP Paradox
#76 - 2017-04-27 18:54:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Paradox
I've enabled a new Shipyard to start up on Singularity. We'll monitor this one for now and start up more next week.

It's located in V-3U8T, and we have added it to the moveme command. You will also find a global beacon in the solar system that is called Blood Raider Shipyard to warp there. I would probably suggest making your own bookmarks once you are there however.
Thank you, fly safe o7

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician

Cade Windstalker
#77 - 2017-04-28 12:37:00 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
I've enabled a new Shipyard to start up on Singularity. We'll monitor this one for now and start up more next week.

It's located in V-3U8T, and we have added it to the moveme command. You will also find a global beacon in the solar system that is called Blood Raider Shipyard to warp there. I would probably suggest making your own bookmarks once you are there however.
Thank you, fly safe o7


>.>

Did you teach the Blood Raiders to set smartbomb traps or something? Pirate
Hello Meow Kitty
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2017-04-28 21:31:28 UTC
And still they try to move players (including maybe more alts) from highsec into nullsec.Roll
mrammo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2017-04-29 11:23:57 UTC
CCP Paradox wrote:
I've enabled a new Shipyard to start up on Singularity. We'll monitor this one for now and start up more next week.

It's located in V-3U8T, and we have added it to the moveme command. You will also find a global beacon in the solar system that is called Blood Raider Shipyard to warp there. I would probably suggest making your own bookmarks once you are there however.
Thank you, fly safe o7


The system is not available to me in the moveme popup.
CCP Paradox
#80 - 2017-04-29 17:06:23 UTC
mrammo wrote:
CCP Paradox wrote:
I've enabled a new Shipyard to start up on Singularity. We'll monitor this one for now and start up more next week.

It's located in V-3U8T, and we have added it to the moveme command. You will also find a global beacon in the solar system that is called Blood Raider Shipyard to warp there. I would probably suggest making your own bookmarks once you are there however.
Thank you, fly safe o7


The system is not available to me in the moveme popup.


Sorry this resets on every downtime for now, I'll keep fixing it and then do something permanent on Tuesday next week.

CCP Paradox | EVE QA | Team Phenomenon

Space Magician