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Long range turret fitting requirements - still justified?

Author
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2011-12-30 15:42:40 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
Onictus wrote:
None of the tier 3s are solo boats, trying to jam them into the roll is simply doing it wrong.
I agree. All the tier 3s are certainly very different then anything else we have. If anything, I think their presence on the battlefield will encourage the use of long range weapons.



Not really, they are good at gimmick fleets tier 3s plus combat ceptors are destructive, or tier 3s and recon if you want to get expensive about the the combo of matar/gallente recons and ANY of tier three BCs is godly.

However, show up against a BS gang and you immediately have issues.

They are great fleet boats though, once tackle and tanking is covered they make an interesting wildcard that has a fair amount of autonomy with facerapeing enemy support and tackle. So they are very fun to fly.
vorneus
Hub2
#42 - 2011-12-30 16:43:43 UTC
m0cking bird wrote:
I believe that all long range turrets use to use to much fitting requirements to be useful. However, with the changes to rail-gun. All that's left is beam lasers, with regard to fitting requirement and usefulness. You know, without being forced to fly a Zealot. Pretty much speciality ships. As oppose to Minmatar and Gallente who are able to use long range turrets on so many ships.


Care to give some examples of "so many" Gallente ships that habitually fit rails? I can't think of a single ship that commonly fits medium rails aside from perhaps an Arazu, nor can I think of other sized ships save for a handful that "can work" with Rails (PvE fits, Taranis, Enyo/Catalyst maybe and obviously Talos).

Part of the reason fewer Amarr ships fit beam lasers is that scorch is so good. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, by the way, I don't think scorch should be nerfed - I'm just saying that because there is range overlap to an extent not really found in other turrets, pulses are a more common choice.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.

Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2011-12-30 16:59:55 UTC
Isn't the real problem with long range guns the min warp distance of 50km and probing? Wouldn't a fix there fix more?
Tak McMonagle
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2011-12-30 17:28:44 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Isn't the real problem with long range guns the min warp distance of 50km and probing? Wouldn't a fix there fix more?


Probably
vorneus
Hub2
#45 - 2011-12-30 21:23:22 UTC
Tak McMonagle wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Isn't the real problem with long range guns the min warp distance of 50km and probing? Wouldn't a fix there fix more?


Probably


It's certainly a factor in the problem, but not the only one. By the way, min. warp distance is 150km.

-Ed

This one time, I like, totally did some stuff.

Lili Lu
#46 - 2011-12-31 00:45:19 UTC
No, not really justified anymore. WIll it change? No, probably not. Some artifacts of former mechanics will linger in the game. Look at recons still with absurd locking ranges, but no more ew range of old (went out with new probe mechanics and death of sniping anyway) which is probably a good thing.

But gg to have raised the question, I guess.
Maroxus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-12-31 11:40:37 UTC
vorneus wrote:
Tak McMonagle wrote:
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Isn't the real problem with long range guns the min warp distance of 50km and probing? Wouldn't a fix there fix more?


Probably


It's certainly a factor in the problem, but not the only one. By the way, min. warp distance is 150km.

-Ed


Maybe he means ... selecting warp at 100km towards something 150km away? Thus traveling only 50km with warp ...
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#48 - 2011-12-31 13:10:05 UTC
Kahz Niverrah wrote:
m0cking bird wrote:
I was also thinking all short range turrets should be nerfed in range. All under 12k.

What would you buff on projectiles and lasers to compete with blaster damage if their range was nerfed?


They already have natural buffs atm.

Lasers the largest Optimal -with scorch just admit it 40km+optimal with shortest range weapon system is silly.
Add the extra tank and long range weapons with a great alpha/dps strike you've got an excellent combo

Projectiles the largest fall off- hell with the shortest range ammo and gun projectiles med size can project 85% of their dps at 35km with regular te's, isnt this silly?
Add the speed, maneuvrability and think about large projectiles in some ships being able to hit for 85% of their dmg at 100km, now this is totally silly. Add dmg selection and you have something really overpowered, with long range weapons it's even worst, not only they have the alpha, they have the tracking and they have dmg selection making those the perfect long range weapon system.

Then if the above is not silly, what about the shortest weapon system with 7km optimal 14 fall off, this is for the largest ones. So shouldn't they tade that distance difference for a much bigger dps at their operating range? - I say yes, they should do even 30% more dps, you should feel your anus sweat at eatch gate since it's the only thing they're good for.
So to make it simple, either bring other short range weapons to closer range, either give blasters a lot more range, either give blaster ships accelleration/top speeds over everyone but biggest mass so it can't just stop easily or turn as easy as rusty crapy mappy opy stuff.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2011-12-31 13:50:07 UTC
Reducing the range of short range guns won't make long range guns viable.
The problem is that fighting at long range isn't viable anymore. DPS, fitting, ... at those ranges don't mean a thing if there's no fighting taking place at that range.

The 50km warp was indeed with warp @100. IMO, min warp distance actually flown should be increased to 200km (so warp @100 to 300) This will make bouncing necessary and increase the tactics required to pull off ongrid warping.

Probing might need to be looked at aswell, perhaps some deviation or bigger spread on where you'll land after warp or a counter module, I don't know.

TLDR, fitting or dps means nothing if long range ain't viable.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2011-12-31 15:39:53 UTC
I don't think so. Let me show you my Tachyon Armageddon with 100mn MWD and Heavy cap booster blowing past PG by almost 40%. This bare bone setup needs at least 3 fitting mods before you can put anything else on it. Fitting "issues" are just dumb.

I can understand requiring fitting mods for newbies or over-the-top gimmicky setups like 100mn cruiser hulls but that's where it stops. Have AWU5, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5? You're good to go!

Large guns' specs (beam, rail and arties) are their own balancing factor. I know for a fact that forcing a RCU on the fit won't change that.

It knows what you think.

Large Collidable Object
morons.
#51 - 2011-12-31 21:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Sphit Ker wrote:
I don't think so. Let me show you my Tachyon Armageddon with 100mn MWD and Heavy cap booster blowing past PG by almost 40%. This bare bone setup needs at least 3 fitting mods before you can put anything else on it. Fitting "issues" are just dumb.

I can understand requiring fitting mods for newbies or over-the-top gimmicky setups like 100mn cruiser hulls but that's where it stops. Have AWU5, Engineering 5 and Electronics 5? You're good to go!

Large guns' specs (beam, rail and arties) are their own balancing factor. I know for a fact that forcing a RCU on the fit won't change that.



Well - I don't think the largest Tier BS weapons should fit the lowest tier BS without some compromise - especially with Tachs, as they are one tier above Megapulses which have Megabeams as their proper counterpart. And then, even pulse-fit, I use dual heavy II on my geddon fits most of the time in order to be able to fit an MWD, heavy cap booster and some tank despite having all V fitting skills.

But I agree - the more I think about it, the DPS and tracking differences are enough of a trade-off in most of todays pvp situations. I think SR fitting requirements should be increased whilst LR should be lowered and both are the same in the end.

Maybe LR would be op in pve fits compared to SR then, but then again who gives a damn about that?
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
Kahz Niverrah
Distinguished Johnsons
#52 - 2011-12-31 22:05:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahz Niverrah
Tanya Powers wrote:
Then if the above is not silly, what about the shortest weapon system with 7km optimal 14 fall off, this is for the largest ones. So shouldn't they tade that distance difference for a much bigger dps at their operating range? - I say yes, they should do even 30% more dps, you should feel your anus sweat at eatch gate since it's the only thing they're good for.
Then rejoyce - your wish has been granted. That's how it works now. Unless you're saying that lasers and projectiles should have their range nerfed to blaster range but blasters get to keep their superior damage, or blasters need another 30% damage on top of their already superior damage. In either case, I think that's excessive and unbalanced.

I don't always post on the forums, but when I do, I post with my main.

Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2011-12-31 22:16:41 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Well - I don't think the largest Tier BS weapons should fit the lowest tier BS without some compromise


The tier system needs to go in the bin as well, just handing a ship a bunch of fitting issues because its a lower tier ruins lots of ships that could be great.
Large Collidable Object
morons.
#54 - 2011-12-31 22:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Large Collidable Object
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Well - I don't think the largest Tier BS weapons should fit the lowest tier BS without some compromise


The tier system needs to go in the bin as well, just handing a ship a bunch of fitting issues because its a lower tier ruins lots of ships that could be great.


Altough it doesn't contribute to the topic in any meaningful way, I agree for the most part on all sub-bs, except for BS - Phoon, Pest and Maelstrom all have their roles, although the phoon is a bit skill intensive, however, I use all of them.
Geddon is a fine, cheap high dps ship, Apoc is a good sniper (ok - obsolete atm - at least I don't use them) and Abaddons - well - you know Abaddons.
Caldari and Gallente have distinct and usable tier 1+2 BS (although I never find myself using Caldari BS, despite having the skill at V), both their Tier 3's suck, although the Rokh may have profited more from the hybrid buff.

Anyway - that has nothing to do with Rails vs. Blasters, Beams vs. Pulses or Arties vs. ACs.
You know... [morons.](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gjOx65yD5A)
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