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Habitual offenders
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Tara Thellare
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2017-04-16 14:31:52 UTC
The problem:
Griefers in Jita basically insta-lock and alpha ships as they arrive at station. They get concorded but they just re-ship, wait out timers, grind up their sec status then rinse and repeat. For one person this might be an issue but for corps with the isk and manpower to throw at the problem, this becomes overwhelming for other players.

Solution:
Any character with with (x) or more concord responses in the past 30 days can be engaged by any players at any time regardless of sec status. Also, corps with (x) or more concord responses in the past 30 days can be war dec'd for free.

Since concord doesn't attack them (assuming they've raised their sec status) and since they can still fit for PVP, this means the problem doesn't go away entirely but it does mean they have to fight for their lol's.

It also encourages the targets to stand up for themselves which means more fights.
Arden Elenduil
Unlimited Bear Works
#2 - 2017-04-16 15:38:17 UTC
Well, the issue here is that you call them griefers. They're not. They're suicide gankers looking to make a profit off other people's silly behaviour (such as putting too much valuable stuff in their hauler).

Completely acceptable gameplay, and it does not need fixing. If someone does it repeatedly, then that means he has found a decent source of income. You already have ways to counter that, namely through killrights, suicide ganking him in return, or simply not overloading your ships with goodies.

Therefore, I'm going to give this a -1
Cade Windstalker
#3 - 2017-04-16 17:45:11 UTC
So, first off, this won't actually solve the "problem" you want it to solve.

Anyone camping Jita who isn't already flashy probably isn't ganking so many people that this would actually impact them because, contrary to your assumption here, most players who gank don't actually grind up or buy up their sec status with tags very much. It's boring and time consuming and/or cuts into more fun or profit-making activities.

The players who are the main gank offenders don't care. They're permanently -10 which makes war-decs or being able to freely shoot them completely irrelevant, anyone who can lock them can take a punt at them. You're not going to manage that 90% of the time though because they basically just undock, warp onto grid when their target is in front of them, and blap it. They then either dock up or get podded by some opportunistic player. Either way they end up back in station.

Most of the people blowing folks up in Jita are either mass-wardecers, which means no CONCORD, or solo guys in a Tornado looking to pick off the occasional guy hauling way too much in a T1 industrial. In either case this will have basically zero impact on them, but it probably will add a fun new thing people can exploit.

Most of the actual ganking happens in Uedama, Niarja, or nearby systems that are easily camped and have lower sec status for slower CONCORD response.

If a player wants to avoid being ganked then they should haul less per trip and tank their ship better.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4 - 2017-04-16 19:24:13 UTC
Tara Thellare wrote:
Also, corps with (x) or more concord responses in the past 30 days can be war dec'd for free.


If you don't see how this could be abused, I have a bridge to sell you...
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#5 - 2017-04-16 19:37:02 UTC
The issue is what would be considered griefing in other games isn't in Eve Online.

I think that line hasn't drifted much since launch, but what was sporadic 10 years ago has become far more organized, so maybe that line should be reconsidered.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#6 - 2017-04-16 19:43:17 UTC
Tara Thellare wrote:
Solution:
Any character with with (x) or more concord responses in the past 30 days can be engaged by any players at any time regardless of sec status. Also, corps with (x) or more concord responses in the past 30 days can be war dec'd for free.

Since concord doesn't attack them (assuming they've raised their sec status) and since they can still fit for PVP, this means the problem doesn't go away entirely but it does mean they have to fight for their lol's.

It also encourages the targets to stand up for themselves which means more fights.
This is essentially already in the game. Decreasing security status quickly makes a repeat offender free-to-shoot to any other player in highsec, and even if they somehow raise their security status, they are saddled with killrights which can be traded or made public so the player can be engaged by anyone for 30 days.

If you don't like those criminals preying on other players, stand up for yourself and go engage them with the tools you already have.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#7 - 2017-04-16 19:55:08 UTC
Most haulers can be tanked to take an Alpha shot from a Tornado - I survived 2 shots in a blockade runner (admittedly not by much). Gankers only get 1 shot in Jita before CONCORD arrives so that miss cost the ganker 2 Tornados plus whatever he was flying when the kill rights were exercised so docking games aren't entirely one sided.

Point is - CCP doesn't need to do anything to fix this, you need to learn how to fit your ship.
Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#8 - 2017-04-16 20:14:51 UTC
Griefing is against the TOS and a bannable offense. If you see someone griefing as per the terms of service, report them with a support ticket.

That being said, Jita isn't a rookie system, so everyone is free game, no matter how new they are.
Netan MalDoran
Cathedral.
Shadow Cartel
#9 - 2017-04-16 20:43:05 UTC
I have only been killed in Jita once, and it was because I was experimenting if I could get out of the station while I was a criminal.

So basically, dont be stupid and youll be fine.

"Your security status has been lowered." - Hell yeah it was!

Falcon's truth
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#10 - 2017-04-16 20:56:17 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I think that line hasn't drifted much since launch, but what was sporadic 10 years ago has become far more organized, so maybe that line should be reconsidered.


I think you don't remember the early days very well, since organized 23/7 suicide ganking was a thing back then too. IIRC the only time when it wasn't a thing was when you could tank CONCORD, and it was just plain ganking without the suicide.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2017-04-16 21:24:47 UTC
Yeah, anyone who does frequent ganking is already a free target. Anyone who does a gank (just one) is also a free target to the person they ganked for 30 days.

Players can already get their own back.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Lugh Crow-Slave
#12 - 2017-04-17 00:31:00 UTC
Played this game over a decade never been shot on jita undock outside a few war decs.


Do you even have a docking bookmark? Because there is no way to even lock you in time if you do

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#13 - 2017-04-17 03:28:05 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Do you even have a docking bookmark? Because there is no way to even lock you in time if you do


But but that would require work, and not just telling CCP to nerf ganking.
oiukhp Muvila
Doomheim
#14 - 2017-04-17 09:21:46 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I think that line hasn't drifted much since launch, but what was sporadic 10 years ago has become far more organized, so maybe that line should be reconsidered.


I think you don't remember the early days very well, since organized 23/7 suicide ganking was a thing back then too. IIRC the only time when it wasn't a thing was when you could tank CONCORD, and it was just plain ganking without the suicide.



Its more organized that it used to be.
Regulus Scyssor
Libertalia.
#15 - 2017-04-17 09:33:15 UTC
Suicide gangs are a tipical thing to see when moves through empire, also loot thiefs, low gate campers and machi-bombers

keep them, is a part of the game, diversify market to local hubs and makes harder the game for empire gamers... wellcome to eve noobs

Venture is love
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#16 - 2017-04-17 09:58:28 UTC
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Its more organized that it used to be.


Define "used to be". Are we talking about some point a few weeks ago, before the last time you got ganked? Or are we talking about the early days of the game, when it was possible to tank CONCORD and corps set up 23/7 gatecamps in market systems and killed everything that jumped in?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#17 - 2017-04-17 10:45:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
oiukhp Muvila wrote:
I think that line hasn't drifted much since launch, but what was sporadic 10 years ago has become far more organized, so maybe that line should be reconsidered.


I think you don't remember the early days very well, since organized 23/7 suicide ganking was a thing back then too. IIRC the only time when it wasn't a thing was when you could tank CONCORD, and it was just plain ganking without the suicide.



Its more organized that it used to be.

Who is to blame for that?

Being organised is a necessity for them these days, due to the numerous nerfs that have been implemented against them by CCP at the behest of people like the OP.

You lot never learn.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#18 - 2017-04-17 14:00:37 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Define "used to be". Are we talking about some point a few weeks ago, before the last time you got ganked? Or are we talking about the early days of the game, when it was possible to tank CONCORD and corps set up 23/7 gatecamps in market systems and killed everything that jumped in?

I will take a shot at this one. I started in 2009 there were less than 1/4th the number of characters hanging about in usual choke points and Jita (even though there were more characters online) than there is now so in that way the answer is yes there has been a steady increase in ganking, at least in some specific areas of space over the years.

Then hulkageddon happened and the number of gankers multiplied by several orders of magnitude, yet when that event officially ended after several years run the number of gankers did not decrease by any significant amount so again the answer is yes there has been an increase in ganking over the years.

Based on information from friends and corp mates past and present even back in those heady days of tanking Concord there was not as much ganking going on game wide as there is today.

Is the ganking good or bad?
Neither, for the most part it simply is a fact of the game and one has to adjust to keep safe. On the other hand it can be a bad thing for the game and CCP has recognized this and made appropriate nerfs to the ganking game play style as a result.

Sonya Corvinus wrote:
Griefing is against the TOS and a bannable offense. If you see someone griefing as per the terms of service, report them with a support ticket.

The problem here is that the TOS does not really define what griefing is, it gives a vague definition and then leaves it in the hands of the people at CCP who review each case to make the decision. So that brings up the question is ganking a banable offense because griefing? The answer is yes it can be, but that does not mean that all ganking is griefing.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:

You lot never learn.

I believe you are as wrong here as you could possibly be.
CCP watches ganking fairly closely because of it's potential to be devastating to their cash flow and on many occasions CCP has not liked what they see so they have stepped in to nerf the ganking game play style, yet you and many others blame the targets of those ganks for those nerfs. The nerfs that have happened in the past and any that may happen in the future are the direct result of the gankers actions, and those gankers are 100% responsible for those changes, so man up and admit it then and only then will you be able to put the entirety of the situation into proper perspective. Oh and always remember CCP is a company in business to make money, the game of EvE is the vehicle they chose to do it with and when a game play style threatens their cash flow you can count on them to make changes to protect that cash flow even if it means nerfing a popular game play style.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#19 - 2017-04-17 16:04:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Donnachadh wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Define "used to be". Are we talking about some point a few weeks ago, before the last time you got ganked? Or are we talking about the early days of the game, when it was possible to tank CONCORD and corps set up 23/7 gatecamps in market systems and killed everything that jumped in?
I will take a shot at this one. I started in 2009 there were less than 1/4th the number of characters hanging about in usual choke points and Jita (even though there were more characters online) than there is now so in that way the answer is yes there has been a steady increase in ganking, at least in some specific areas of space over the years.
There were more "criminal activities" to engage in in 2009, now those activities no longer exist the people, that have remained in Eve, who engaged in them have gravitated towards the main one which is left, ganking.

Quote:
Then hulkageddon happened and the number of gankers multiplied by several orders of magnitude, yet when that event officially ended after several years run the number of gankers did not decrease by any significant amount so again the answer is yes there has been an increase in ganking over the years.
The number of habitual gankers didn't increase by several orders of magnitude with hulkageddon, many of the people who took the aggressive role in those events were merely taking a break from their usual activities. Nor has ganking increased over the years, in fact despite the process of ganking a ship now requiring more players than ever before, less people appear to be doing it; as evidenced by the fact that Concord, who kill each and every aggressive participant in a gank, are killing less of them than they have at any time in the past.


Quote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You lot never learn.

I believe you are as wrong here as you could possibly be.
CCP watches ganking fairly closely because of it's potential to be devastating to their cash flow and on many occasions CCP has not liked what they see so they have stepped in to nerf the ganking game play style, yet you and many others blame the targets of those ganks for those nerfs. The nerfs that have happened in the past and any that may happen in the future are the direct result of the gankers actions, and those gankers are 100% responsible for those changes, so man up and admit it then and only then will you be able to put the entirety of the situation into proper perspective. Oh and always remember CCP is a company in business to make money, the game of EvE is the vehicle they chose to do it with and when a game play style threatens their cash flow you can count on them to make changes to protect that cash flow even if it means nerfing a popular game play style.
I believe otherwise.

The people I speak of are the ones that have persistently lobbied CCP into changing the game to suit them, either by essentially removing activities by dint of mechanics changes or by making them harder to carry out.

It inevitably backfires when the target audience of those nerfs adapt to the changes and up their game, which in turn leads to calls for more nerfs.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Benje en Divalone
#20 - 2017-04-17 18:40:27 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
The people I speak of are the ones that have persistently lobbied CCP into changing the game to suit them, either by essentially removing activities by dint of mechanics changes or by making them harder to carry out.

CCP strikes my as a very pro-PvP studio. The games economy absolutely depends on ships getting blown up. Why would they pay any attention to those lobbying for PvP nerfs?

IMO ganker nerfs happen when the ganking gets so out of hand that it threatens CCP's bottom line. If a 100+ ship CONCORD presence in Uedama becomes a regular thing... well I wouldn't blame lobbying for the mechanics consequences.