EVE General Discussion

As I said, baltec1 is not the one redesigning these things. You may want to watch the game balance presentation from Fanfest where CCP shows all 12 subsystems each T3 is going to have at a high level. Post changes Cloak is a defensive sub and Nullification is a pop mod subsystem.



They're used, a little, but that doesn't make using them a good idea.

What someone says "no one uses HACs" they don't mean literally zero use, they mean very very little, especially in the case of the HACs where we have old usage numbers to compare with current usage.

If you look at the zKill stats for HACs and T3Cs as a group you can see T3C usage slowly crawling up over their first two years, hitting a steady state in 2011, and then they really take off in 2012 almost over night. Over the course of 2011 HAC use roughly halves. It sees a bit of a return with the HAC rebalance in late 2013 with bursts of popularity over that time period, but it's never really recovered to pre-2011 levels, especially compared to the game population which peaked between 2011 and 2013.

Besides that it's not just HACs that T3Cs stole "market share" from. They've been a bottleneck on the whole Cruiser class and even most BCs. "Must be noticeably better than a T3C at something in order to see much use".

So yeah, it's great that you can bait people with Muninns, but that doesn't really invalidate the point here. If anything it kinda proves the rule, people know T3Cs are OP so they avoid fighting them. That is the exact opposite of a good thing.



Your fits aren't fine... lol, they're gimicky and not at all practical. They were a sad attempt to prove a point that managed to completely miss the point. If you'd tried to fit up something actually comparable to those T3C fits you'd see how ridiculous they are. For example, lets put your Gila fit on a Tengu...



Better DPS, almost 75k more EHP, little less range. Basically a Tengu tanked like your Gila, or any of your shield fits really, gets to glue another half of a ship's worth of EHP onto it. Cost difference is about 50m.

The problem isn't that those fits can't be made to work, it's that they already don't work and modifying them so that they *do* work at what those T3 fits are trying to do makes the T3s strictly better in *every* way.

Posting a fit and saying "see, this isn't a problem!" only to be called out that your fit doesn't work and then just hand-waving with "well you can modify it" isn't an argument, it's like a plan where line two is "and then a miracle occurs".

I think the reason you didn't post a real fit for any of those ships that's actually cost and performance comparable to a T3 is because you know there isn't one. A T3 with the same fit will smoke anything you could think to put forward so you deflected with a smoke screen and hoped no one would notice.

Just to address a couple of the inevitable counter arguments to this point:

• Yes, some ships are still worse than others but balanced. Generally because they're far far cheaper than the alternatives and you pay a premium for the relatively small performance increase you get. For example HACs vs T1 Cruisers.


• T3s are not significantly more expensive than HACs for the performance boost they give.


• Once again this is not just about HACs or just about EHP and DPS or just about utility, it's all of them and a few more. A whole pile of smaller things that make a big mountain of OP labeled T3Cs.

Nonesense

Hope they reimburse T3C subsystem/specialisation skills as well.

That will go a long way towards reducing outrage, preventing attrition and helping players re-skill for something else, if they so choose.

Might as well reimburse SP anyways and give players the choice.

But I expect they wont, cos they would love to sell more extractors.

If T3Cs end up between T1 and Navy, its probably the hardest nerf any ship class has ever undergone in EVE.

baltec1s proposal of reducing them from a conservative 450mil cost (with subsystems) to a 40-50mil cost (with subsystems) alone, is unheard of in EVE history.

That alone also will have catastrophic ramifications for value of WH sourced materials used in their production, such as gas and Sleeper salvage, and T3C/subsystem manufacturers.

Basically, WH sourced Sleeper salvage and gas will be worth 1/10th of now, as will all existing stock.

This is something WH dwellers seem to not be yet understanding about baltec1s proposal.

Also everyones own T3Cs will be only worth 1/10th on the resale market of what they do now, and that is only if anyone wants to buy one after the nerf, and the deluge of people dumping them that will increase supply even further.

?!

Do you happen to have a source bookmarked?
Havent read anything about this.

PS: Nevermind. Looking into it myself.

Nvm, the link I found is someones own ideas :/

Yeah, I watched it.

They are interesting ships for HS/LS, but not something as an alternative to T3C for running PvE content with in WH/NS.

They are, to boil it down, just another Force Recon with sllghtly more effective dps.
The cyno element is perplexing regarding HS...

Their accessibility also seems to be restricted to events.

Thanks for the heads-up, but I dont see these as relevant to the T3C issue.

PS: Tank scaling with sec status is a ******** system.

What bonuses do you mean?
They are largely identical to Force Recon except they replace EWAR options with secondary dps stats.

Do you mean the sec status tank bonus?
Yeah, its significant, but Force Recon dps is terrible even with 4 turret/launcher highs.
I think we are talking around about 400, along with no drones.
Thats about 1hr + ~30mins to clear a 5/10.

Plus these are event sourced ships, hence independent of material costs.

And if they are "yuuugely OP", shouldnt we be crapping all over this ship?

Im not seeing this as any form of compromise or alternative towards the T3C issue.