These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

T3 cruiser numbers
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-04-12 00:21:12 UTC
I imagine many other players have done the quick sums on the number of possible varieties of T3 it is possible to create using the 4 subsystems and 5 slots, but it is somewhat mind boggling. There are 4 to the power 5 possibilities, over 1000 for each of the races.

Now sure not all of these 4000 ships will be good, but given the possibility space it seems likely that a combination can be found that performs better than any other ship in a given role. Normal ships can be customised, but at least can be predicted to some extent. With the number of possible T3s, it is impossible to know when you see 'Tengu' what it is you will be up against. Even wormholers refer to cloaky lokis, neut legions, etc, there is always a descriptor as well as the T3 name because it alone tells you nothing.

T3s would be much much easier to balance and play against, if there were fewer possibilities of finished ship. Should CCP get rid of subsystems completely? Reduce the number of them? Or are subsystems not the problem with T3Cs? If not how would you go about fixing T3Cs?

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#2 - 2017-04-12 00:28:45 UTC
Didn't ccp say they were going to reduce the types of subsystems available "soon"?

EvE security zones in pictures

EvE quick reference pdf

EvE links
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#3 - 2017-04-12 01:03:58 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Didn't ccp say they were going to reduce the types of subsystems available "soon"?



Maybe, I haven't been keeping updated on CCPs plans, got a link by any chance?

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2017-04-12 01:40:32 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Didn't ccp say they were going to reduce the types of subsystems available "soon"?



Maybe, I haven't been keeping updated on CCPs plans, got a link by any chance?


They mentioned something about it during the ship balance segment of fanfest.
Matthias Ancaladron
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2017-04-12 01:45:22 UTC
Theyre reducing them, reskinning the combos so you can have skins, and rebalancing the slot layouts.
They want to nerf them all so they don't overlap and out perform specialized ships.
At least that's what I read. Good news for me. Legion was ugly as ****, maybe now it will be acceptable once reskinned.
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#6 - 2017-04-12 03:41:47 UTC
And for all those mathematical possibilities only 2 or 3 variants will actually see any real usage.Lol

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#7 - 2017-04-12 04:00:25 UTC
most T1 frigates at least have 12 slots totally. Even if one slot can only fit one of the 3 possible modules, there' will be millions of combination totally. But does any certain T1 frigate hull have more than 100 practical fits?
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#8 - 2017-04-12 04:06:57 UTC
Eternus8lux8lucis wrote:
And for all those mathematical possibilities only 2 or 3 variants will actually see any real usage.Lol

Yes, this.

  • Alpha.
  • Buffer.
  • AB bonus.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#9 - 2017-04-12 04:16:13 UTC
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
most T1 frigates at least have 12 slots totally. Even if one slot can only fit one of the 3 possible modules, there' will be millions of combination totally. But does any certain T1 frigate hull have more than 100 practical fits?


That's not really a valid comparison, fitting a single module does very little to a ship's overall capabilities. Choice of subsystem does change the ships capabilities by a large amount, and even changes the base hull stats and slot layout. On top of that, a T3 with subsystems then gets to fill its slots like any normal ship, with however many possible module combinations that gives. The largest effect though comes from the subsystems.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
mkint
#10 - 2017-04-12 04:21:47 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Didn't ccp say they were going to reduce the types of subsystems available "soon"?



Maybe, I haven't been keeping updated on CCPs plans, got a link by any chance?


They mentioned something about it during the ship balance segment of fanfest.

Linky

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Alasdan Helminthauge
AirHogs
Hogs Collective
#11 - 2017-04-12 04:23:40 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
most T1 frigates at least have 12 slots totally. Even if one slot can only fit one of the 3 possible modules, there' will be millions of combination totally. But does any certain T1 frigate hull have more than 100 practical fits?


That's not really a valid comparison, fitting a single module does very little to a ship's overall capabilities. Choice of subsystem does change the ships capabilities by a large amount, and even changes the base hull stats and slot layout. On top of that, a T3 with subsystems then gets to fill its slots like any normal ship, with however many possible module combinations that gives. The largest effect though comes from the subsystems.


I said so to imply that there aren't 1024 practical subsystem combinations for a T3C hull, either.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#12 - 2017-04-12 05:30:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
I said so to imply that there aren't 1024 practical subsystem combinations for a T3C hull, either.


What percentage would you estimate? Keeping in mind the many varied uses of T3C hulls. I can't think of many useless subsystems.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2017-04-12 05:51:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Ignore my stupid.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#14 - 2017-04-12 05:53:57 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I imagine many other players have done the quick sums on the number of possible varieties of T3 it is possible to create using the 4 subsystems and 5 slots, but it is somewhat mind boggling. There are 4 to the power 5 possibilities, over 1000 for each of the races.

Now sure not all of these 4000 ships will be good...

5^4 not 4^5

625 combinations per ship.

2500 total combinations summing all four races.

No, it's 4^5.

Five types of subs. Four subs in each.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#15 - 2017-04-12 05:54:59 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Mr Mieyli wrote:
I imagine many other players have done the quick sums on the number of possible varieties of T3 it is possible to create using the 4 subsystems and 5 slots, but it is somewhat mind boggling. There are 4 to the power 5 possibilities, over 1000 for each of the races.

Now sure not all of these 4000 ships will be good...

5^4 not 4^5

625 combinations per ship.

2500 total combinations summing all four races.

No, it's 4^5.

Five types of subs. Four subs in each.

Yes he's correct.

Too quick before my edit above.

Just my high level of stupid today.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#16 - 2017-04-12 06:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Mieyli
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Just my high level of stupid today.


I wouldn't worry, it isn't really very obvious and I'll wager it's been a while since you've had to do sums to do with combinations. Nothing to do with your intelligence, only how fresh your knowledge on this specific aspect of the topic is.

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.
Andrew Indy
Cleaning Crew
#17 - 2017-04-12 08:42:05 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
I said so to imply that there aren't 1024 practical subsystem combinations for a T3C hull, either.


What percentage would you estimate? Keeping in mind the many varied uses of T3C hulls. I can't think of many useless subsystems.



Well personally I would say that there are only a few common , on average 4-5.

Ewar
AHAC
Cloaky
Active Tank
100MN Kitey bullshit
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#18 - 2017-04-12 10:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rroff
It was actually one of the things that got me to bother playing at times - kept things interesting if you didn't know exactly what you were up against and tearing down the killmail to see if they had done anything unusual - something clever you hadn't thought of before or as a cautionary tale when they'd done something utterly mind bogglingly stupid with the fit :D

Don't forget there is also so many combinations you can do with regard to rigs and other fittings - even with a specific combination of sub-systems there is probably another 5-6 different (valid or atleast not totally stupid) ways you can fit a T3.

Largely though most race T3s were fitted out into roughly the same 5-6 types as posted above - you see a Prot and Guardian fleet landing and you pretty much could guarantee they were moderately buffered, high dps fit, etc. in most cases you could figure it out from the fleet composition - even then though we would sometimes hide something a bit more unusual amongst a lot of "standard" fit T3s.

Balanced and easy should never exist in the same context as a T3 - if you are afraid of the T3 don't engage T3s :s
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2017-04-12 12:20:12 UTC
Rroff wrote:
It was actually one of the things that got me to bother playing at times - kept things interesting if you didn't know exactly what you were up against and tearing down the killmail to see if they had done anything unusual - something clever you hadn't thought of before or as a cautionary tale when they'd done something utterly mind bogglingly stupid with the fit :D

Don't forget there is also so many combinations you can do with regard to rigs and other fittings - even with a specific combination of sub-systems there is probably another 5-6 different (valid or atleast not totally stupid) ways you can fit a T3.

Largely though most race T3s were fitted out into roughly the same 5-6 types as posted above - you see a Prot and Guardian fleet landing and you pretty much could guarantee they were moderately buffered, high dps fit, etc. in most cases you could figure it out from the fleet composition - even then though we would sometimes hide something a bit more unusual amongst a lot of "standard" fit T3s.

Balanced and easy should never exist in the same context as a T3 - if you are afraid of the T3 don't engage T3s :s

I once put a XL SB on a Proteus. Worked extremely well.

Having said that there are only a few sub combos that are any use. There are a few people (like myself) who spend hours and hours in EFT trying to squeeze out the max performance from ships. If there was an awesome sub combo that hasn't been discovered and cookie cut into a doctrine I'd be extremely surprised.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Hello Meow Kitty
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2017-04-12 13:29:53 UTC
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
Didn't ccp say they were going to reduce the types of subsystems available "soon"?




Why reduce variations? Maybe see what is currently OP and just hit that Nerf Bat a few times......... I'm sure they have something to keep track of "most used ships for pvp" or "most used ships in pve" to analyze>!?
12Next page