Player Features and Ideas Discussion

But OP, why should I, as a member of a 25,000 strong nullsec sov entity, be completely immune to wardecs in highsec?

It's hilarious to see idiots lose jump freighters on the jita undock.

It's even funnier when they're blue.

Why remove this kind of hilarity?

you cannot place structures in a hub system. and pipe camping has already been discussed.

I mentioned Niarja specifically as it is the classic pipe camping system, and discussed the risks there for the agressor, and how they scaled with the number of wars.

You seem to be under some kind of misapprehension that this proposal is to stop PVP in HS.

It is quite the opposite, it is about allowing PVP in HS without the scales being loaded, one way or another by the design of the system, which is the core current problem.

Let us use the example of a pipecamp system, Niarja, lets, as you suggest, let them place a citadel there and hellcamp the system, and add the scenario of dozens or wars.

Firstly they could do that now, they could hellcamp it now if they had the wish to.

Second, Niarja would become like Rancer, a place EVERYONE KNOWS is a problem.

Now, If one tries to clean up rancer, the pipebombers and campers simply dance around, and as soon as it looks like they might lose something they dock up.

So lets let the same play out in the new wardec system in Niarja.
1. Players get annoyed, travel between Jita and Amarr is effectively interdicted if you are at war with the campers.
2. The Citadel they placed has Known Vunerability timers, People begin to show up, looking for a fight, who want to fight, and have a desire to remove the interdiction by killing the citadel. (With No structure it is no longer a "war system")
3. Without the requirement for pre organisation or formal mechanics, people find they have people with the same interest arriving and work together
4. Wardeccers get good fights, and lose the citadel, or Don't lose it if they are good.
5. Too many wardecs means too many people arriving at timers and the wardeccers get rolfstomped.
6. As People don't like getting slaughtered, the next cycle they do fewer wars that they can handle.

So, the system is self balancing, without the need of ANY input from CCP or the need for CCP to even get involved in balancing it, it is a self balancing system, with PLAYERS whether defender or attacker, having the impact on the universe.

I read your proposal, In depth, and Although some of your proposals have some merit, and some would even be helpful. Overall it is simply adding a significant amount of complexity onto an already complex system, It would in fact almost lock some of the defects of the current system into a limited range that would require continuous tweaking by CCP, with all the drama that comes with every tweak, as no one would be satisfied.

The system we are discussing would put the balance back into being the result of player actions, not requiring complex control systems, now THAT is EVE Where players influence and make real the "world" through their actions.

Look at any scenario, in the new proposal, and the more someone tries to abuse it, the more there is a pressure for it to swing in the opposite direction, active balance through player behaviour. You really do not need me to hand hold you through every one, If you push it out of balance, EITHER WAY the players can push back.

This is how EVE works at its best, Not game design by developers trying to control every imaginable scenario.

If you truly want fights, you will get them, If you truly don't and are willing to pay the price, and with loss of citadels/structures, the price is high, that is also a valid choice, not one forced upon you by a system pre rigged against you. And if you don't like things, turn up and do something about it, finding others of like mind already there.

There will be some battles that will make null look like a peaceful backwater.

Isn't battle between willing combatants, leading to fun and involvement for all what eve is about? Or has it in some minds become for some just a tacky way of forcing ones self on others in the most unpleasant way imaginable? After all EVE is at its core a PVP game not a abuse/murder simulator.

But It is an end, totally, and completely of a system, that is totally biased against the defender, and currently it's major role is to provide a never ending stream of victims, for a minimum amount of effort.

Currently, It is not a war, It is organised muggings with the police in your pocket, and fiddling with the bribe rate to the police and effectively limiting mugging permits, isn't going to change a thing. Just filling in a tick box to enable you to say that something has been done, while it continues as before for a few years.

With the new system those days are gone, and a wardeccer will actually need skin in the game, you may regret the loss of an unlimited feeding frenzy, but even the most self focused unaware person must realise that massacaring new players before they have a chance to grow is not good for Either CCP, the players, or wardeccers themself. But I may have unrealistic expectations of the intelligence or the forsight of people. Thankfully this new system requires neither to work, the system is inherently self balancing without the need for self restraint, players can and will punish the greedy.

How are "new players" going have enough ISK to buy themselves out of a war?

All this will do is let rich, veteran players (like most probably yourself) buy their way out of a war while the poor, new players will have no choice but to suffer through one, and they will have to increasingly as there will be few other targets.

Why do you hate new players so much?

With the OP it is completely unneccesary, unless one wants a way to avoid the risk to one's structures altogether. It specifically does not suggest the total removal of risk, nor in my opinion should it do so.

Unlike the existing system, No one is imprisoned by it, players simply have to make intelligent and reasonable choices, not forced to someone elses will.

The mechanic allows an unlimited amount of interesting and emergent ways to deal with the wardec for all types of players, on all sides.

Please realise that it is suggested as a mechanism to COMPLETELY REPLACE the current system, not just another work around, that would be broken in 3 minutes.

Of course opinions about the current wardec system are so polar, and emotional, that it can be very hard to realise that this proposal is NOT carrying any of the baggage with it.

This applies to both attackers and defenders, this proposal offers choice to both and also a better experience whatever group you identify with. Also CCP gets to benefit from its efforts to bring in new players, so we do too. The perfect ISK and mineral sink is willing and engaged players having a wonderful time blowing their enemies stuff up in space, each with choices and options to turn the battle their way.
Not purely the one with the most isk winning, to either make it go away, or pay to keep it alive forever with no other downside.

This proposal benefits both wardeccers AND defenders.

Unless one purely want kills and not fights, and to hell with everyone else, threatening ones kill board full of week old players, then it Certainly is going to make one very pissed off.

They will need to adapt and learn to fight.

Those who do Fight will find their skills more rewarding.

Those who defend have an opportunity to use strategy to make taking the fight a reasonable choice.

Those who wish to operate as a purely social corp, without "putting their big boy pants on" can effectively have one, without the need to spend dev time creating such a thing. Of course they miss out on playing with the new shiny toys.

Sounds like a win win!

I won't argue 25,000, but strong and null sec entity are questionable at best. These terms imply you have claimed territory and will fight to defend it. WWB kind of said something else loud and clear.

Perhaps you should adjust your statement to something like:

As a member of a group of 25,000 flapjacks, why should I be completely immune to wardecs when a handful of low sec pirates and a few hundred HS carebear alts could burn me out of null sec in a matter of weeks?

That would be more representative of current events..... just saying


OP - along with all the other solid arguments that show the folly in you idea, there is also the smallish detail that burning down another groups citadel does nothing beyond the cost of the building. There is no loot, no spoils..... nothing. Just a little flash in space as all the wealth in the structure is teleported to an npc station. Killing HS structures at this point is pretty worthless. Which again gets me back to - you aren't adding fun, interest or value to the HS war dec mechanics - you're just adding an easy way for players to avoid conflict AND carry on normal business for the most part (bar a few systems where they have structures).

I would counter that war decs are really cheap. I doubt there are many corps that couldn't afford to do this. It's an interesting idea. Though it does give the bear corp an isk avenue to avoid conflict, it's not like there aren't several avenues already available. Going npc is the obvious free one. Not logging in is also a free one.

At the end of the day, if a corp is going to dodge a war, they are going to dodge a war, so why not turn it into an isk sink. I don't see this paying to end a war as something that would change much at all. What's the difference between pay and 'go npc' or 'don't log in'?

I think it's kind of inevitable that the current player farming mechanics are going to go away. Bears are sick of it and as the lobby for ending player farming gets louder, historically CCP 'will bend like a reed and give in. Heck, player farming sux anyway - it is neither fun nor interesting. Either CCP will change it or the HS bear population will move on to games where there aren't 'internet space bullies' (their words, not mine).

Change is coming, might as well get an isk sink out of it.

You are right there is no profit in shooting hs structures, other than salvage, and additionally looting your enemies wrecks, but it will encourage people to meet up at timers if they have ANY desire to fight. On both sides. For players that choose not to, the potential loss of that structure if you like is the price of that decision. One should never FORCE people to fight hopeless battles, but one certainly should encourage player interaction and provide simple tools they can work with to make a fight worth taking, win or lose. And BOTH sides have something to lose. If marmite place a thousand structures, that is a thousand structures that are at risk from the hundreds of corps they wardec.

Which is absolutely the opposite of the current wardec system. Which only those who milk it for all it is worth could ever love.

Ok lets look at an actual, scenario with the proposed mechanic. All names pulled out of thin air to protect the innocent.

Imagine a HS mission running corp, running sisters missions together, because playing together is good, right?

Pirat decide it will be fun to pee in their cheerios and maybe get some good fights.

Pirat drops a cheap structure in llangisi, nackugard, and barkrik (excuse spelling, lazy) and declares war against everyone they see in system say 30 corps.

Now defenders have some choices.

They note that pirat commute from dodixie each day, so someone drops a structure on the route, this gives all the defender corps a place to ambush them, because it is a war system, not just for the corp that drops it but for all at war with Pirat.

Get together either by arrangement or just turning up to the same timer, and engage pirats structure in lanngisi, and any that turn up to defend it.

Offer to let horde in for some fun and games as something to do, knowing exactly what time they need to come. They can join and fight in war systems, without being a target in all of HS by Pirat.

Set traps on the approaches to system, camp the gates, set some comms up and intel channels.

Blob the living daylights out of them, if they dock up the structure is killed and everyone gets their ratting system back.

Defend your timers of your structures

Agree with others to defend theirs in exchange for defending yours.

Go and do missions for minmattar a few jumps over. But at the potential costs of losing your structures.

In exchange for this, the attacker gets the opportunity to have some fun fighting.

Now as opposed to random killers at pipes, mission sites, and camping the trade hubs, picking off singletons by the dozen.
Currently If a response group turns up too big for pirat's neutral logi wing they dock up.

So current defender actions are
1. Die in a fire
2. Fight and die in a fire and get the wardec extended
3. Fight and watch them dock up and get the wardec extended
4. Leave corp
5. Log off and go and play overwatch for a week or two
6. Live somewhere else.
7. Avoid all contact with everyone, hide in the cracks, try to be as invisible as humanly possible.

Now of the two systems,

A. one engages the players on both sides and encourages emergent gameplay, new tactics, teamwork, and a sense of community. Everyone knows exactly what the simple rules are, not having to guess exception layered on exceptions.You know who you can shoot, where, and who can shoot or aid those shooting you.

B. One feeds kills and victims to one side only and encourages HS players to avoid all contact with others.

I certainly know what system I would prefer to see.

This is simply ONE scenario that the new mechanism makes possible, there are unlimited possibilities, that we can discover.