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[News] MASSIVE DATA CORRUPTION REPORTED AT KYONOKE INQUEST

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#61 - 2017-04-06 01:59:13 UTC
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.


You and I both know that Capsuleer organisations have, at best, five years before they get ripped down by competitors.


PIE endures!


I think he means as "sovereign," space-holding entities, Ms. Daphiti.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#62 - 2017-04-06 02:50:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Maria Daphiti wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:


I'm still interested to see what your Imperium can do, if you ever get the chance.


You and I both know that Capsuleer organisations have, at best, five years before they get ripped down by competitors.


PIE endures!


I think he means as "sovereign," space-holding entities, Ms. Daphiti.


And how are they supposed to be all that different from other massive space-borne entities, considering that even they are vulnerable to the same threats that threaten sovereign governments, both inside and out?

Also, I had seen no signs of Arrendis holding any ideology for as long as I could remember. She's probably speaking from the position of someone who has herded cats or being a herded cat.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2017-04-06 03:36:56 UTC
Ayallah wrote:
Pandemic Legion is twice that old and Goons in one form or another I think are seven years old.


Goonfleet, the original corporation, would be twelve in September.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2017-04-06 03:48:24 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Also, I had seen no signs of Arrendis holding any ideology for as long as I could remember. She's probably speaking from the position of someone who has herded cats or being a herded cat.


I'm speaking from the position of someone who has seen the farce that is 'parliamentary' government, as well as someone who has both been the cat, and the cat-herd.

Aria, the Federation pays lip-service only to its own ideals. It always has. They claim to value liberty and the right to self-determination, but their history is littered with attempts to remake others in their own image, from the overt attempts with the Caldari to the more subtle poisoning of the Republic with their 'democracy'.

At the same time, they are not responsive to their people. The Senate brings with it power, and power brings ways to feather the nest. Do you really think any of them listen to their constituents more than they listen to lobbyists and moneyed interests? Don't be naive.

If their consitutents demanded their due, they would get it. But they don't, because like you, they 'trust the system'. You make yourself ripe to be exploited.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#65 - 2017-04-06 04:21:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Arrendis wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Also, I had seen no signs of Arrendis holding any ideology for as long as I could remember. She's probably speaking from the position of someone who has herded cats or being a herded cat.


I'm speaking from the position of someone who has seen the farce that is 'parliamentary' government, as well as someone who has both been the cat, and the cat-herd.

Aria, the Federation pays lip-service only to its own ideals. It always has. They claim to value liberty and the right to self-determination, but their history is littered with attempts to remake others in their own image, from the overt attempts with the Caldari to the more subtle poisoning of the Republic with their 'democracy'.

At the same time, they are not responsive to their people. The Senate brings with it power, and power brings ways to feather the nest. Do you really think any of them listen to their constituents more than they listen to lobbyists and moneyed interests? Don't be naive.

If their consitutents demanded their due, they would get it. But they don't, because like you, they 'trust the system'. You make yourself ripe to be exploited.


You forgot Federal media.

Also, the Federation did a very good job making their own citizens fat, complacent and apathetic to the democratic process. Though even there they still sometimes screw up. By taking away their creature comforts and making too much of a scene of it. That's how you **** off the complacent masses: Take away what they cherish and hold dear.

It's only the rare few who actually scrutinise what their government is doing on a day to day basis without such promptings.

I also complain quite a bit about the Republic. However, I haven't been keeping up with whatever the Tribal Council's been doing since Colelie to come up with a caustic enough criticism of the government.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#66 - 2017-04-06 07:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Arrendis wrote:
If their consitutents demanded their due, they would get it. But they don't, because like you, they 'trust the system'. You make yourself ripe to be exploited.


You ... do get that you're talking to someone who lives pretty happily as a servant on the margins of a four thousand year old feudal society, Ms. Arrendis? And that I often wish I had less power over other people's lives than I do?

There's such a gap here that I feel like we're speaking as residents of different worlds completely. I guess that's not unusual when running into people born into totally different societies, though. What you see as unresponsive to constituents' will looks way too responsive to my eyes-- mob rule. Giving real power to the people sounds like a nice idea until you take a closer look at what people are like.

The human animal: Tribal. Clannish. Narrow. Latent U-Nats in the Federation, Templis sympathizers in the State. Emotionally driven. Reactive, fickle, thoughtless and ignorant.

At best they lead peaceful, happy lives. At worst, they get deeply engaged in wielding power over other people's, without having or even wanting the knowledge they'd need to meddle productively, instead of destructively.

I don't avoid the State because of its elite; I avoid it because the policies I hate the most really do reflect the popular will. Half-bloods like me aren't despised by the CEP; we're despised by our neighbors.

I don't trust the Federation precisely because it empowers people like that. If you want to see why I don't trust them, just look up footage of Etturer's execution. ... death by popular anger. A blood sacrifice to the mob.

Better, maybe, to be ruled by an elite, carefully educated and groomed for command. Even if it means being a tool for others to use, that is something I can accept. No system is perfect; it's all a bunch of apes muddling through as best we can. But I trust the insight of the elite few long before the alleged wisdom of "common folk." ... even, and maybe especially, if that means I have little power, either.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#67 - 2017-04-06 07:53:23 UTC
I was born and raised in the society you have chosen for yourself Aria, and it remains infuriating how pathetically blind you are to how the 'elite, groomed for command' are corrupted and powermongering to a degree not even the pirate factions can claim.

Feh, why bother. You have chosen to close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears to avoid anything that makes your 'blood oath' look a little less like a good decision, and then argue against even such things as basic accountability.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#68 - 2017-04-06 08:40:08 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


Better, maybe, to be ruled by an elite, carefully educated and groomed for command. Even if it means being a tool for others to use, that is something I can accept. No system is perfect; it's all a bunch of apes muddling through as best we can. But I trust the insight of the elite few long before the alleged wisdom of "common folk." ... even, and maybe especially, if that means I have little power, either.


Even the most well-meaning of Elites can screw up, and it is the job of their subjects to scrutinise them and question them once in a while, especially when whatever it was they are doing is starting to look dubious.

This is important for several reasons:

1. It reminds the Elites to check their complacency and their arrogance. The act of questioning reminds them that they are being watched and judged at all times.
2. By responding to criticism, they have the opportunity to look back at their actions and identify any possible flaws they might have overlooked.

If the Elite can't stand to be questioned, even when the questions are legitimate, congratulations, the Elite has revealed himself to be a potential tyrant.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#69 - 2017-04-06 09:49:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
I don't know that I necessarily disagree, Mr. Egivand. I guess I'm not sure whether that oversight needs to be formalized, though, since it inevitably happens anyway.

Edit: Come to think of it, oversight in the State is informal or handled through corporate protocols and shareholder control; oversight in the Empire is formal, but comes from other "elite" entities, like the MIO, Speakers of Truth, Theology Council, and (maybe most importantly) one's family and one's liege.

How is oversight actually handled in the Republic?



Miz, as you're already aware, your voice on this topic is one of the least interesting noises in this universe to me. I can't trust anything you say, for reasons that have nothing to do with honesty.

In general, I'm actually kind of keen to get Matari perspectives on things. Your perspective, though, is too distorted to be useful to me, so your opinion is dust.
Elmund Egivand
Sebestacny Circle
#70 - 2017-04-06 10:08:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:

How is oversight actually handled in the Republic?



In theory, whenever there are doubts on the part of the citizen, they will bring them up to the grassroot leaders (typically a Clan head), who will then bring it up to the relevant Tribal Chiefs and hopefully pass those concerns along up the hierarchy. If the concern is on Republic matters, that is brought up to the relevant Republic executor bodies.

In practice, there are no guarantees that said concerns are addressed by the relevant people, or that the relevant people actually even get the concerns.

There's also the thing about concerns being addressed. It differs really between Tribe and Clan. No idea how the Sebiestor Tribe actually handles it, but I do know that some Clans prefer to make it a public affair while others make it private. Some won't even actually verbalise anything and just either do something about it in the background or do it visibly.

There was also that one time where there are confusions about who is responsible for what and what is considered Republic matters and what is to be considered Tribal matters and such. No idea if that's resolved now since I haven't really heard anything about it. Maybe I just didn't pay attention. However, if that still hasn't been settled, then it makes it more confusing on actually to whom those concerns should be directed to.

I hope that problem is already dealt with now.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#71 - 2017-04-06 10:25:27 UTC
Well ... I guess a lot of stuff works in theory that's a little spotty in practice for one reason or another. Probably if there were a way of distributing power that didn't run into big problems (that didn't involve fully stripping people of their individual identities and autonomy, anyway), we might all be using it by now.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#72 - 2017-04-06 10:53:10 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Miz, as you're already aware, your voice on this topic is one of the least interesting noises in this universe to me. I can't trust anything you say, for reasons that have nothing to do with honesty.

In general, I'm actually kind of keen to get Matari perspectives on things. Your perspective, though, is too distorted to be useful to me, so your opinion is dust.


I know, when someone calls you on your nonsense you decide to ignore it or paint the source as... well, whatever suits you. It's not the first time I see it from you when you run out of ways to justify things or standpoints you've taken after all. To be expected of course, but disappointing nonetheless.

Well, and amusing for that matter. You have painted yourself as a wielded weapon, a falcon on your mistress' wrist and so on, yet have barely seen a real fight your entire career. You claim to be seeking understanding and so on of New Eden, but cherry pick the truths and views that suit only you and the world-view you have chosen beforehand, or the ones that are too easy to refute like the Clown's.

My perspective is distorted, you say? I wonder what kind of kaleidoscope you must view New Eden through in order to claim honesty given all of this.

It is a bit sad in the end, yet I recall that you were warned that this was coming. That this is how you would become. I was not the only voice that brought that warning to you either, or foretold you of how you would change. I wonder if you can see the changes in yourself anymore, or if the image in the mirror has become too... distorted.
Jev North
Doomheim
#73 - 2017-04-06 11:01:34 UTC
I'm always amazed at how this much-vaunted "oversight" and "holding to account" seems to consist entirely of groaning about things on the IGS. Then loudly declaring how superior a system it is.

Even though our love is cruel; even though our stars are crossed.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#74 - 2017-04-06 11:07:31 UTC
I assume by "real fight" you mean fleet warfare, Miz.

Most of what I've done, I did with PY-RE. If you want to argue the reality or value of that, I'll let you take it up with Pieter.

I don't really aspire to be something like that again, or to serve in large fleets in future.

I'm also not going to be provoked by such an insult again. I let Anslo get to me. You won't.

And as for discarding the opinions of others: actually, Miz? It's just you. And not even on all subjects.
Loai Qerl
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#75 - 2017-04-06 11:10:12 UTC
Me, I m amazed by the speed at which any thread turns into people making mournful lectures at each other about how the other is just so very wrong, and how sad that is. Oh No, You Are What Is Wrong With The Cluster, I Lament For You And Also Us, and so on.

Ha, I'm doing it right now aren't I? That's funny.

Anyway. Fuss less!
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#76 - 2017-04-06 11:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhara Del'thul
Jev North wrote:
I'm always amazed at how this much-vaunted "oversight" and "holding to account" seems to consist entirely of groaning about things on the IGS. Then loudly declaring how superior a system it is.


It's a forum for capsuleers. The one thing we all have in common is that we've been surgically removed from having even the slightest means of officially contributing to or affecting our nations beyond our capacity for incredible violence at certain agents' behest. Very occasionally, there are moments where we can do so at or against targets that might effect the politics of New Eden and its nations, but that's not just rare but often difficult to foresee at that.

So, disregarding the unofficial means we individually decide to pursue, we're left with the one thing we can do: Make the case to the public, which have read access to everything we say here, and see what resonates with the baseliners of New Eden.

Do you have a better option, Jev?

Edit, @Aria: Your assumption isn't correct, 'fleet' battles have little to do with anything. I'm just pointing out the... 'distortion' in what you choose to paint yourself as, when compared to the reality of your combat record. Mine is utterly mediocre to the point of dreariness and I wouldn't dare try to self-style myself as a 'wielded weapon' or 'falcon on someone's wrist' without a massive increase in documented skill and performance. It's merely an example of how you may want to take some time to reflect on where the distortion is, when it comes to viewpoints and stances.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#77 - 2017-04-06 12:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Hee. Well, I haven't been keeping in practice much lately. Drifter ops are a little hard on one's kdr. I kind of decided, a while back, not to care about that, even if it stings my pride a little.

I'm here to heal, in part, Miz. If that means being a little less a hawk ... maybe that's okay.


Edit: awaiting briefing's start.

Miz, of course I'm distorted. Trying to see clearly is what brought me here to begin with. ... but there's no point of view that doesn't come with a perspective.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2017-04-06 13:15:30 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

You ... do get that you're talking to someone who lives pretty happily as a servant on the margins of a four thousand year old feudal society, Ms. Arrendis? And that I often wish I had less power over other people's lives than I do?


Do I know that? Yes, Aria, I do. Do I 'get it'? Do I understand it?

You're in a position of privilege, and you're well-treated by those you take as your masters. Would you see the arrangement as beneficial if you weren't? Probably not, but the crux of your point is that it is beneficial, precisely because you're one of the lucky ones.

Only, you're not. You're not really one of the 'lucky ones' because you're not really one of the 'ones' at all. You're a capsuleer, and if you decided to flake off tomorrow and join Horde, heck, if you decided to go work for RSS and take missions against the 24th, nobody would care. Sure, you'd run into some social problems with your ex-corpmates and their friends, but outside of that small knot? Nope. At most, you'd have to watch your standings. Do some work for the Imperial Navy, maybe, to keep your warm reception, if you want it.

CONCORD wouldn't even ding you for breach of contract. Legally, the only contracts that are really binding on you are the ones to buy and sell goods. Nothing else gets enforced.

Do you think normal citizens in any of the empires can do that? Literally decide one day 'hey, you know, I think I'm going to start shooting everyone around me' without any kind of legal repercussions? Don't even begin to compare yourself to normal people, Aria. That's the one thing that we will never be again, no matter how much we try to hide behind some veneer of membership in the empires and their societies.

But it's easy, isn't it? To let someone else make your decisions, to let them impose an order and a structure on your life that you don't trust yourself to forge on your own? Especially for you: we've discussed your spiritual beliefs in the past, after all, it's all about the denial of the self, the abrogation of individual identity. The idea of personal responsibility must be kind of terrifying, I suppose.

As for Miz's perspective being 'distorted'... her perspective is no more distorted than yours. To claim otherwise is to claim her experiences are somehow less valid, less real, than yours. She has first-hand experience with the aspects of Amarr society you will never experience. She understands Amarr society on a level you will never be able to. And yet, you claim her view on it is 'dust'. You close your ears to dissent and expect your own viewpoint to hold weight? I'd ask how you can claim to be making an informed decision, but really, that's the whole point, isn't it, Aria? You don't want to make an informed decision. You don't want to make a decision. You, a capsuleer who is above the laws of the empires, want someone more elite to make your decisions for you. You want to be coddled, to be directed. You want to remain a child in the creche, even as you wield a level of power whole planets can't match.

I wonder, do you 'get' it?

Yes, humanity is tribal and fractious. We don't really identify well with groups beyond our own immediate circle of associates. So what? Do you think that's any less true of the 'elites' you hold up as somehow above it all? Do you really think the CEP don't despise half-bloods in pretty much exactly the same proportion as those beneath them?

They just lie about it better, to keep the rabble in line. Do you really think, out of all of the billions and billions of people in the State, those eight CEOs are the absolute best there is at what they do? Do you think even 0.001% of people in the State even have a shot at rising to that level? That's the sad fact about your faith in 'elites': they aren't. They're just another group of naked apes, looking to stuff their faces, fill their pockets, and get off on something good-looking every now and again.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#79 - 2017-04-06 13:16:20 UTC
Jev North wrote:
I'm always amazed at how this much-vaunted "oversight" and "holding to account" seems to consist entirely of groaning about things on the IGS. Then loudly declaring how superior a system it is.


At what point did I claim this was in any way 'oversight' or 'holding to account' those in power? This is a discussion. What the feck else do you expect to find on a discussion forum? 'Open this thread and your ship explodes'? 'Hey, people from across the cluster who aren't Federal citizens, if 500 of you read this thread, the Federal Senate will be disbanded'?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#80 - 2017-04-06 15:32:00 UTC
Kind of a lot there.

I'll try to respond properly later, but I'll just say this here.

My issue with Miz is personal. I do not, cannot trust her perceptions. Whatever created the conditions for that, it remains true.

I'll take thoughts from basically anyone else, any Matari, whatever their background and however they hate me for what I represent. Just not her.

Even if I'm a twisted person, too.