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How many more players must we lose to bullying

First post
Author
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#541 - 2017-04-02 17:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


You seriously think that freighter ganking is balanced at this point with bumping as it is?

I just went to Zkill, I found a Charon freighter with three Caro expanders in Uedama with 12 Catalystrs on the kill and you seriously tell me that this needs to be nerfed, what to one catalyst? 12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m, that lot could easily chase down a freighter trying to make a run for it along with a suicide blackbird to hold it. Seriously mate I have to laugh at you saying that it needs to be nerfed because it is too hard, define hard for me please it would be a good laugh...


And people wonder why I keep posting on this subject, I do it because it is comedy gold...


It is only as hard as the victim makes it.



That is not the question is it, the victim was in a triple cargo expanded Charon worth 10bn in total, the point was that it does not need bumping because 12 Catalysts is currently needed to kill a static bumped and setup max cargo and the weakest freighter, so how many to kill one actively trying to get away, with gate guns and people shooting near the gate, you know real interesting game play and not an easy plex machine for certain players. The tank can take 12 catalysts and it needs nerfing ROFL, as I said comedy gold, your attempt to divert is also comedy gold. Lol

EDIT: While I am posting I might as well go for it, I would just like to say well done to Test for putting up their Keepstar, great job guys! o7

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#542 - 2017-04-02 18:15:06 UTC
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#543 - 2017-04-02 18:18:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Drago Shouna wrote:
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.


Diddums..., seriously you cannot refute my point so you want it closed down, typical Eve fail poster Roll Have a CODE 315,315 bounty for lol's

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#544 - 2017-04-02 18:36:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiasa Kite
Dracvlad wrote:
You seriously think that freighter ganking is balanced at this point with bumping as it is?

I just went to Zkill, I found a Charon freighter with three Caro expanders in Uedama with 12 Catalystrs on the kill and you seriously tell me that this needs to be nerfed, what to one catalyst? 12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m, that lot could easily chase down a freighter trying to make a run for it along with a suicide blackbird to hold it.

You poor thing. So desperate are you to find supporting evidence that you find some numbers that actually support your narrative, then completely ignore the wider picture. Because you're so special, I'll break a few things down for you.

It took twelve pilots to down that single, unsupported freighter, not including the bumper ship(s) or loot ship or scout(s).

The pilot in question stuffed 10 billion ISK unwrapped in a triple antitanked freighter. It's like he wanted to be killed.

A freighter, sans ANY bonuses from skills and triple antitanked has approx 38,000 raw HP in its structure alone. The killmail only reports 38,000 damage. This means that this is a follow-up attempt after a failed gank. In fact, if you look at Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri 's killboard, you'll see he did indeed lose a Talos a few minutes earlier in the same location but failed to land a kill for it. Can't speak for the rest of the gank fleet however, as they obviously don't share their kill info.

So much for that ISK ratio, huh?

Edit:
Dracvlad wrote:
That is not the question is it, the victim was in a triple cargo expanded Charon worth 10bn in total, the point was that it does not need bumping because 12 Catalysts is currently needed to kill a static bumped and setup max cargo and the weakest freighter, so how many to kill one actively trying to get away, with gate guns and people shooting near the gate, you know real interesting game play and not an easy plex machine for certain players. The tank can take 12 catalysts and it needs nerfing ROFL, as I said comedy gold, your attempt to divert is also comedy gold. Lol

Adding this because it's funny when you consider the above.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#545 - 2017-04-02 18:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You seriously think that freighter ganking is balanced at this point with bumping as it is?

I just went to Zkill, I found a Charon freighter with three Caro expanders in Uedama with 12 Catalystrs on the kill and you seriously tell me that this needs to be nerfed, what to one catalyst? 12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m, that lot could easily chase down a freighter trying to make a run for it along with a suicide blackbird to hold it.

You poor thing. So desperate are you to find supporting evidence that you find some numbers that actually support your narrative, then completely ignore the wider picture. Because you're so special, I'll break a few things down for you.

It took twelve pilots to down that single, unsupported freighter, not including the bumper ship(s) or loot ship or scout(s).

The pilot in question stuffed 10 billion ISK unwrapped in a triple antitanked freighter. It's like he wanted to be killed.

A freighter, sans ANY bonuses from skills and triple antitanked has approx 38,000 raw HP in its structure alone. The killmail only reports 38,000 damage. This means that this is a follow-up attempt after a failed gank. In fact, if you look at Salah ad-Din al-Jawahiri 's killboard, you'll see he did indeed lose a Talos a few minutes earlier in the same location but failed to land a kill for it. Can't speak for the rest of the gank fleet however, as they obviously don't share their kill info.

So much for that ISK ratio, huh?

Edit:
Dracvlad wrote:
That is not the question is it, the victim was in a triple cargo expanded Charon worth 10bn in total, the point was that it does not need bumping because 12 Catalysts is currently needed to kill a static bumped and setup max cargo and the weakest freighter, so how many to kill one actively trying to get away, with gate guns and people shooting near the gate, you know real interesting game play and not an easy plex machine for certain players. The tank can take 12 catalysts and it needs nerfing ROFL, as I said comedy gold, your attempt to divert is also comedy gold. Lol

Adding this because it's funny when you consider the above.


Nothing to do with the ISK ratio and all to do with you saying it was too hard without bumping, you are telling me that 12 destroyers taking down a ship in 22 seconds is too hard if they have to do it without bumping.

I checked this fit and 182,580 EHP is what I get in that freighter, which can be taken down by 12 Catalyst if they overheat and if they get full damage, but the day before there was 12 SB's taking down a similar fit Charon in Uedama too. Did he lose a Talos then, lol.

I repeat the question so you can't evade it, if you think that taking down an easy to lock and shoot for high damage 182,580 EHP ship is too difficult without bumping then I really wonder about gankers abilities.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#546 - 2017-04-02 18:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Infinity Ziona wrote:
aldhura wrote:
Alasdan Helminthauge wrote:
CCP's own survey has showed that new players who have been ganked are more likely to stay than those who mine all days in peace.



I did my own closed survey which I haven't shown anyone that contradicts this. Roll
Stats are mere numbers which you manipulate your own needs. They are only relevant if all measurement criteria and results are known to all.
I have gone from 5 accounts, soon to be none, well one alpha holding all my loot because sometimes you just want to relax and get away from all the ass hats in the game, and that is becoming more and more difficult. I don't judge though, CCP makes choices based on revenue, so I suspect my 5 subbed accounts are not as imporatant as the maybe 10 alpha greifers that now exists.
I know of many long time players stopping for the same reasons, EVE HAS CHANGED in the last year or 2. Only CCP can say if its for the better.


All the gankers quote that survey. What they ignore is it was only players who quit in first 14 days, hardly the targets a gankers goes for :)


1. It wasn't a survey.
2. The criterion for new players being ganked was ganked within the first 15 days, not people who played 14 days then quit.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#547 - 2017-04-02 18:56:34 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Nothing to do with the ISK ratio

"12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m"

Nice backtrack.

Quote:
and all to do with you saying it was too hard without bumping

Without bumping, they'd have to contend with sentry DPS. Catalysts don't fare too well under that kind of pressure. In addition, their proximity to gate would mean greater chance of opportunists interfering with the gank or loot. No matter which way you look at it, more firepower and more work would be required to land the profitable kill.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#548 - 2017-04-02 19:00:40 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Nothing to do with the ISK ratio

"12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m"

Nice backtrack.

Quote:
and all to do with you saying it was too hard without bumping

Without bumping, they'd have to contend with sentry DPS. Catalysts don't fare too well under that kind of pressure. In addition, their proximity to gate would mean greater chance of opportunists interfering with the gank or loot. No matter which way you look at it, more firepower and more work would be required to land the profitable kill.


Amusing, I had a thread on the risk about ganking freighters. I asked for it to be closed when it was being side tracked into bumping and everyone pretty much agreed that if you are an idiot you deserve to be ganked. Dracvlad whined about that a bit, but then I opened up another thread to discuss alternatives to bumping that would still allow for freighter ganking at similar levels but where bumping could be removed. Neither Dracvlad nor any other anti-ganker showed up. Typical.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#549 - 2017-04-02 19:03:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Nothing to do with the ISK ratio

"12 Catalysts worth 11m each total value 132m"

Nice backtrack.

Quote:
and all to do with you saying it was too hard without bumping

Without bumping, they'd have to contend with sentry DPS. Catalysts don't fare too well under that kind of pressure. In addition, their proximity to gate would mean greater chance of opportunists interfering with the gank or loot. No matter which way you look at it, more firepower and more work would be required to land the profitable kill.


That was detailed to show the value, so you want to go oh dear Dracvlad is talking about ISK tanking, no I am not.

I repeat, the ship has 182,580 EHP which can be taken down at a pinch by 12 Catalyst in the perfect situation of a bump and 12 SB from the same type of kill the day before, are you seriously telling me that the tank needs a nerf if they have to chase it. Forget about Catalysts, think about the 12 SB's if that helps.

But now you are getting to it in terms of the gates and more engaging gameplay, the current game play is just too lame, even if it doubled to 24 Catalysts or lets say we used 6 Talos which doubled to 12, are you telling me that this needs nerfring if there was no bumping.

I focussed on the 182,580 hit pints on that fit based on 22 seconds before CONCORD which with 12 Catalyst came to 700 DPS which is overheating territory.

Anyway the key part is the 182,580 EHP, got that?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#550 - 2017-04-02 19:11:54 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.


Diddums..., seriously you cannot refute my point so you want it closed down, typical Eve fail poster Roll Have a CODE 315,315 bounty for lol's



Errm...

Where have I mentioned any of your posts?

Or are you so full of yourself that you think every comment is pointed at you?

Nowhere have I mentioned the crap you are on about, indeed I have backed up your stance on many occasions..

So go away and get a grip.

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Ralph King-Griffin
Lords.Of.Midnight
The Devil's Warrior Alliance
#551 - 2017-04-02 19:13:05 UTC
I think this thread has hit maximum antropy,
like the ultimate heat death of the universe ,
everything else pitters out until all that's left are the hulking remenants of decaying black holes, echoes of gargantuan Universe‚Äč shaping collosus drifting in the void to the faint echo of drac and baltec arguing about freighter ehp.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#552 - 2017-04-02 19:16:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Drago Shouna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.


Diddums..., seriously you cannot refute my point so you want it closed down, typical Eve fail poster Roll Have a CODE 315,315 bounty for lol's



Errm...

Where have I mentioned any of your posts?

Or are you so full of yourself that you think every comment is pointed at you?

Nowhere have I mentioned the crap you are on about, indeed I have backed up your stance on many occasions..

So go away and get a grip.


Nope, I don't respect people calling for a debate to be shut down because people are exchanging views, you can go away and get a grip on whether it was a clever thing to call for a debate to be ended because some people who you don't like posted or it went in a direction you do not like. I don't care if it is me or others, by the way, what you did was wrong and by they way this is not the first time you have done this.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2017-04-02 19:19:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I focussed on the 182,580 hit pints on that fit based on 22 seconds before CONCORD which with 12 Catalyst came to 700 DPS which is overheating territory.

Anyway the key part is the 182,580 EHP, got that?

Which requires 14 people working together. FOURTEEN: Twelve to gank, one to bump, one to loot, not including scouts.

This is the best possible case scenario in the current balance situation, 0.5 sec space, pre-pulled CONCORD, no gate guns, no interferance from other players, no attempt to escape/call for help by the freighter, a freighter which is as anti-tanked as possible.

Best case scenario.

And you want it nerfed.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Drago Shouna
Doomheim
#554 - 2017-04-02 19:23:23 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.


Diddums..., seriously you cannot refute my point so you want it closed down, typical Eve fail poster Roll Have a CODE 315,315 bounty for lol's



Errm...

Where have I mentioned any of your posts?

Or are you so full of yourself that you think every comment is pointed at you?

Nowhere have I mentioned the crap you are on about, indeed I have backed up your stance on many occasions..

So go away and get a grip.


Nope, I don't respect people calling for a debate to be shut down because people are exchanging views, you can go away and get a grip on whether it was a clever thing to call for a debate to be ended because some people who you don't like posted or it went in a direction you do not like. I don't care if it is me or others, by the way, what you did was wrong and by they way this is not the first time you have done this.



Why, because this is going the same way as god knows how many other threads several of you turn into the same argument?

I don't like or dislike anyone on here tbh, some are blocked, yeah, but other than that I enjoy reading the different points of view.

Sadly those points of view end up with the same guys arguing over the exact same points.

So feel free to point out the other times I have done this, I'm presuming asking for threads to be closed because of you and your sparring partners?

Solecist Project...." They refuse to play by the rules and laws of the game and use it as excuse ..." " They don't care about how you play as long as they get to play how they want."

Welcome to EVE.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#555 - 2017-04-02 19:37:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I focussed on the 182,580 hit pints on that fit based on 22 seconds before CONCORD which with 12 Catalyst came to 700 DPS which is overheating territory.

Anyway the key part is the 182,580 EHP, got that?

Which requires 14 people working together. FOURTEEN: Twelve to gank, one to bump, one to loot, not including scouts.

This is the best possible case scenario in the current balance situation, 0.5 sec space, pre-pulled CONCORD, no gate guns, no interferance from other players, no attempt to escape/call for help by the freighter, a freighter which is as anti-tanked as possible.

Best case scenario.

And you want it nerfed.



I don't want anything nerfed, I am just asking you if you seriously want a tank of 182,580 EHP nerfed because bumping was removed, because it would be too hard? That is not hard for gankers, but you seem to think it is too difficult for them. I don't.

I made my case on bumping, I am not going back over that, but I am pointing out that this tank does not need nerfing, to be blunt more people will use this fit without bumping and we will see more dynamic gameplay. It is not too hard, but the player running the Kusions will have to do it with other players, which would be a good thing wouldn't it?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#556 - 2017-04-02 19:38:57 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
I see this thread has taken its usual course thanks to some regular individuals....


I'm out.

It should be closed now.


Diddums..., seriously you cannot refute my point so you want it closed down, typical Eve fail poster Roll Have a CODE 315,315 bounty for lol's



Errm...

Where have I mentioned any of your posts?

Or are you so full of yourself that you think every comment is pointed at you?

Nowhere have I mentioned the crap you are on about, indeed I have backed up your stance on many occasions..

So go away and get a grip.


Nope, I don't respect people calling for a debate to be shut down because people are exchanging views, you can go away and get a grip on whether it was a clever thing to call for a debate to be ended because some people who you don't like posted or it went in a direction you do not like. I don't care if it is me or others, by the way, what you did was wrong and by they way this is not the first time you have done this.



Why, because this is going the same way as god knows how many other threads several of you turn into the same argument?

I don't like or dislike anyone on here tbh, some are blocked, yeah, but other than that I enjoy reading the different points of view.

Sadly those points of view end up with the same guys arguing over the exact same points.

So feel free to point out the other times I have done this, I'm presuming asking for threads to be closed because of you and your sparring partners?


This is the third time I have seen you do this, if you don't like it don't read it. And of course they get back to the same issues, because they are real issues.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#557 - 2017-04-02 19:46:37 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I don't want anything nerfed,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6895483#post6895483
"In effect all that needs to happen is that bumping a freighter like that is not possible and I would be fine with it"

Yes, you do.

You're always changing your story. Every time you're called out, every time your arguments are countered, you claim you never argued it in the first place.

If you're not interested in a constructive discussion, just don't bother posting.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#558 - 2017-04-02 20:16:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Herzog Wolfhammer
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I don't want anything nerfed,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6895483#post6895483
"In effect all that needs to happen is that bumping a freighter like that is not possible and I would be fine with it"

Yes, you do.

You're always changing your story. Every time you're called out, every time your arguments are countered, you claim you never argued it in the first place.

If you're not interested in a constructive discussion, just don't bother posting.




You do realize that you are the one in position of self-entitlement of the sort that only highsec carebears are accused of having, right?

There was once a time when our bad guys had the caliber of watching out for that kind of behavior and going out of their way to avoid it.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#559 - 2017-04-02 20:18:28 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I don't want anything nerfed,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6895483#post6895483
"In effect all that needs to happen is that bumping a freighter like that is not possible and I would be fine with it"

Yes, you do.

You're always changing your story. Every time you're called out, every time your arguments are countered, you claim you never argued it in the first place.

If you're not interested in a constructive discussion, just don't bother posting.




You do realize that you are the one in position of self-entitlement of the sort that only highsec carebears are accused of having, right?

There was once a time when our bad guys had the caliber of watching out for that kind of behavior and going out of their way to avoid it.

I'm sorry, why am I self entitled? Or have you simply misquoted?

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#560 - 2017-04-02 20:24:06 UTC
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Hiasa Kite wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I don't want anything nerfed,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6895483#post6895483
"In effect all that needs to happen is that bumping a freighter like that is not possible and I would be fine with it"

Yes, you do.

You're always changing your story. Every time you're called out, every time your arguments are countered, you claim you never argued it in the first place.

If you're not interested in a constructive discussion, just don't bother posting.




You do realize that you are the one in position of self-entitlement of the sort that only highsec carebears are accused of having, right?

There was once a time when our bad guys had the caliber of watching out for that kind of behavior and going out of their way to avoid it.

I'm sorry, why am I self entitled? Or have you simply misquoted?



indeed you are

Bring back DEEEEP Space!