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[MAY] Blood Raider Capitals

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Author
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#121 - 2017-03-29 00:25:39 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Hi Space Friends, please check the OP, some updates have been made!

Update (2017-03-28 1610)
  • Added local repair bonus to Dagon
  • Reduced Corpse bays for all



That is slightly better. Before, the dagon tanked less than an apostle, now it will likely local tank a little more.

Myself and mukk ran the numbers for the dagon, and even with a full 8 low passive fit, the native resist bonus on the apostle means a 7 low passive fit on the apostle tanks significantly more.

I still seriously think you're going to run into problems with cap. That cycle time bonus is going to kill it. I suggest looking at a ninazu with 2 remote reps running to see what I mean. It's also likely never going to be as practical in normal settings as a lif.

Is there a particular reason you don't want to give it three bonuses per race?

Let me put it this way, a PRACTICAL, full tank, full pimp lif tanks 160k dps unheated. This is going to tank MAYBE 120.

I'm like 100% confident this isn't going to be used anywhere like what you intend it to be used for.


You're comparing an active shield tank to an active armor tank?


No I'm comparing an active tanking ship that remotes reps armor to another active tanking ship that remote reps armor.

Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#122 - 2017-03-29 00:30:59 UTC
Siginek wrote:
Mr Rive wrote:
What would I personally do with it? Well, this is a start:

Amarr Carrier Bonus:
30% bonus to Energy Nosferatu drain amount, optimal range and falloff.
4% bonus to all armor resistances
5% bonus to maximum capacitor pool

Minmatar Carrier Bonus:
5% bonus to Remote Armor Repairer cycle time
7.5% bonus to Armor Repairer amount
10% bonus to capacitor booster charge strength

Role Bonus:
Can fit a Triage module
Can use two Command Burst modules
Energy Nosferatu fitted to this ship will drain targeted ship's capacitor regardless of your own capacitor level
90% reduction in powergrid requirements for Capital Remote Armor Repairers
90% reduction in CPU requirements for Energy Nosferatu
50% reduction in CPU requirements for Command Burst modules
200% bonus to Command Burst area of effect range
200% bonus to Logistics Drone transfer amount
5x penalty to Entosis Link duration


i dont think any faction or price can justify something this much OP ... actual faxes are way too strong alredy, and you would give this thing literally every bonus faxes have now? those rep bonuses would double its RR power compared to other faxes, while simultaneously having immunity to cap warfare thanks to booster bonuses and quite strong tank thanks to resist bonuses and 8 low slots all availabel for tank mods thanks to cap boosters ... this would be literal incarnation of OPness like EVE havent seen yet


This just isn't true. It would have the same RR power as a ninazu. As for it's local tank, you're looking at about a similar tank to how shield FAX tank. At the very most, you won't be looking at much more than a fully pimp lif or ninazu tanks, for like 1/5th the cost.

FAX really aren't that overpowered. You just have to know how to deal with them. People who think FAX are OP generally don't fly them, and don't realize their weaknesses and how just goddamn squishy and hard to fly they are.

Honestly, for a hull cost of between 15-20b, it would be nice if the ship I'm buying has a reasonable chance to survive longer than a t1 fit ninazu...
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#123 - 2017-03-29 00:33:58 UTC
For the record, I don't want the thing to be OP, that would be boring. I just want to be able to justify buying one for the job it is designed to do, namely triage reps.

All it is right now is a e-peen. The other faction capitals in the game make sense to buy, especially the revenant.

Aleverette
Bag ol' Dciks
#124 - 2017-03-29 01:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleverette
Joe Barbarian wrote:
Aleverette wrote:
Joe Barbarian wrote:
Aleverette wrote:
KillCamSpecteR wrote:
Useless ships for 90% of the players . Pirate faction Battlecruisers when ?



Faction caps are useless to EVE :)
Even those that are existing.


Wasn't this once said about T1 capitals?


T1 caps and their faction variants are completely two business I think.

If I have another 20b, I am pretty sure I would buy another t1 super carrier instead of a faction dread.
My decision won't change over time :)

After all, with that many years have passed, did Revenant become useful in cap battles?


I don't think you got what I meant. I've only heard rumors go going back 7-9 years back when capital battle weren't even a thing because they cost so much to build that owning one was a complete secret.

One day the same will happen to todays factions capitals, we'll throw them away like they are T1 dreadnoughts.



I totally know your point, but unlike t1 capitals, those faction caps offer no more utilities other than fanciness.

For example: a nyx is more tanky than a vehement, packed with more firepower against both caps and subcaps, more utility, even more cargohold, nor to say with so many keeps around it is so easy to own a super.

But they cost the same, WHY CCP?
So why the heck I would pick a vehement over a nyx? Nor to say probably vehement itself is a giant taunt that cannot be remotely repped, what that means is a nyx could take 15 doomsday, meanwhile a fancy vehement/dagon could only take 1or2.


Maybe CCP would say:"But hey, vehement has its unique web bonus!" Fudge it.

What is the use of a 90% 14km web on a cap battle? Web a afterburner Revenant down? "WOW hey guys I slow a snail donw!" and then boom you are eliminated by a no-scope titan doomsday.

Against sub caps? No way people would engage a vehement without lots of yolo dreads, they will light up their cyno, because a vehement km worth doing all of these.





Driving a golden car across a battlefield, nobody, whatever EVE last another 10 years or 50 years, would do that.
Unless lower their price, a 3-5b vehement will be much more useful.
Or keep the prices as they are, but throw game balance away like they never exist. Give them ridiculous bounses.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#125 - 2017-03-29 01:45:52 UTC
Yeah, that would be another way to do it. Significantly dropping the price of faction capitals would incentivise their use.

Why when faction battleships cost between 2-3x as much as t1 battleships, should faction carriers/dreads/fax cost 15x as much?
Lelob
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#126 - 2017-03-29 04:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

2. If a ship is good enough, people will give 0 ***** about the price tag on it. Price is a bullshit excuse. You want to incentivize the use of faction capitals? Remove jump fatigue completely from them and give them the old pre-phoebe range. Problem solved.
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#127 - 2017-03-29 09:57:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any comment on the hangar size debate so we can put it to rest?


Sure, we're happy with the existing fleet hanger size. Its the same as the Vanquisher.

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin

Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#128 - 2017-03-29 11:25:23 UTC
Lelob wrote:
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

Currently, bonuses to webs do not apply to grapplers.

If they did, Vindis, and to a lesser extent Bagglehorns, would be OP AF.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Zesty Memes II
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#129 - 2017-03-29 11:56:25 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Lelob wrote:
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

Currently, bonuses to webs do not apply to grapplers.

If they did, Vindis, and to a lesser extent Bagglehorns, would be OP AF.



they would also give the ship the are grappling a negative speed
Tara Read
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#130 - 2017-03-29 12:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tara Read
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any comment on the hangar size debate so we can put it to rest?


Sure, we're happy with the existing fleet hanger size. Its the same as the Vanquisher.



What about a change to packaged vs unpackaged Titan modules in regards to m3 size? That way it's at least easier to carry refits and doesn't conflict with the design of unpackaged modules and refitting due to fleet hangar constraints? Meaning you can carry packaged modules but cannot necessarily refit them in combat because their unpackaged m3 amounts would stay the same?
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#131 - 2017-03-29 12:27:08 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any comment on the hangar size debate so we can put it to rest?


Sure, we're happy with the existing fleet hanger size. Its the same as the Vanquisher.

Fair.

A question to the thread as a whole; did we have this sort of, uh, "conversation" with the Serpentis capitals?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#132 - 2017-03-29 12:57:34 UTC
Querns wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Any comment on the hangar size debate so we can put it to rest?


Sure, we're happy with the existing fleet hanger size. Its the same as the Vanquisher.

Fair.

A question to the thread as a whole; did we have this sort of, uh, "conversation" with the Serpentis capitals?


I guess it was a bit less of a problem because webs are not capital sized mods so the cut to the usual carry-on toolbox was not as drastic.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#133 - 2017-03-29 15:46:12 UTC
Zesty Memes II wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Lelob wrote:
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

Currently, bonuses to webs do not apply to grapplers.

If they did, Vindis, and to a lesser extent Bagglehorns, would be OP AF.



they would also give the ship the are grappling a negative speed

Not really, max in eve is 99.9% you can't go past that and even that is impossible to achieve.
Same with hardeners, you can't go past 99% resists no matter what you do.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#134 - 2017-03-29 16:25:00 UTC
CCP Larrikin
any plans to revisit the nos strength on the Dagon ?

it really does need to be much stronger (or have an internal multiplier) to make it a viable option for the ship
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#135 - 2017-03-29 17:01:03 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Zesty Memes II wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Lelob wrote:
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

Currently, bonuses to webs do not apply to grapplers.

If they did, Vindis, and to a lesser extent Bagglehorns, would be OP AF.



they would also give the ship the are grappling a negative speed

Not really, max in eve is 99.9% you can't go past that and even that is impossible to achieve.
Same with hardeners, you can't go past 99% resists no matter what you do.


That's mostly because of how staking of mods is handled. In the case of a grappler, a single mod could end up with a value over 130%. A range bonus would not break things but a strength probably would. I'm kind of curious if CCP at least tested it for **** and giggles.
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#136 - 2017-03-29 17:49:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Zesty Memes II wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Lelob wrote:
1. Does the web bonus affect grapplers?

Currently, bonuses to webs do not apply to grapplers.

If they did, Vindis, and to a lesser extent Bagglehorns, would be OP AF.



they would also give the ship the are grappling a negative speed

Not really, max in eve is 99.9% you can't go past that and even that is impossible to achieve.
Same with hardeners, you can't go past 99% resists no matter what you do.


That's mostly because of how staking of mods is handled. In the case of a grappler, a single mod could end up with a value over 130%. A range bonus would not break things but a strength probably would. I'm kind of curious if CCP at least tested it for **** and giggles.

negative value items over 100% have been tested before.... it gave unlimited gun range and perfect tracking
Cade Windstalker
#137 - 2017-03-29 19:09:35 UTC
Spc One wrote:
Not really, max in eve is 99.9% you can't go past that and even that is impossible to achieve.
Same with hardeners, you can't go past 99% resists no matter what you do.


Actually, funny thing, you can!

The caps are soft, not hard, except in very specific and hard-coded circumstances. If they roll over (generally due to rounding) you end up with, um, 'funny' results.

Like the DST that infamously managed to get over 100% resists, got shot, and took infinite damage and exploded!

Presumably without a similar hard limit on web speed reductions a Vindi-bonused grappler would result in a ship very briefly going infinity miles per hour, shooting out of web range, and slowing down somewhere around the next star system over... Lol
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#138 - 2017-03-29 20:30:42 UTC
OKAY seen as it seems to make a difference when I post hard math, let me do the math on the NOSing bonuses real quick.

So, each faction NOS you fit on the dagon gains you 100c/sec.

For local reppers, a DB capital armor repper (local) uses up 111.1 cap/sec.

For remote reppers, the bonused reps of the dagon uses up 413 cap/sec.

So, if you wanted to run the Dagon as a remote armor rep boat, to keep it cap stable using the NOS, you would need at least 4 NOS PER capital remote armor rep. As the Dagon has 6 highslots, this means you would have 1 RR, 4 NOS, and 1 Triage mod in the highs, if you wanted to be stable running ONLY the remote rep.

You would need one NOS per local armor rep you fitted.

This is all assuming you are not getting neuted.

So how would a dagon look with the current stats?

Assuming you fit 2 remote reps, and 3 capital nos, with consistent repping, the dagon still has a defecit of 700 cap/sec.

A capital capacitor booster, ignoring reload, gives you ~250 cap/sec.

Assuming your dagon looks like this:

[Dagon, Dagon fit]

Dark Blood Capital Armor Repairer
Dark Blood Capital Armor Repairer
Dark Blood Capital Armor Repairer
Syndicate Damage Control
Corpus X-Type Armor Explosive Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Kinetic Hardener
Corpus X-Type Armor Thermal Hardener
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane

Capital Capacitor Booster II
Capital Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
Capital Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
True Sansha Cap Recharger

True Sansha Capital Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Capital Energy Nosferatu
True Sansha Capital Energy Nosferatu
Triage Module II
CONCORD Capital Remote Armor Repairer
CONCORD Capital Remote Armor Repairer

Capital Nanobot Accelerator II
Capital Nanobot Accelerator II
Capital Auxiliary Nano Pump I

You are still going to have way in excess of a 300 cap/sec defecit running the remote reppers. The local reppers ~should~ be fine, sort of.

So even WITH the NOS bonus the Dagon gets, you're still going to be constantly chewing through cap boosters in order to keep your cap up, even before getting neuted.

And before anyone says 'but you dont run your remote reppers ALL the time duh' you probably haven't been in the kind of fights I have been in with FAX then, because mine are going constantly.
Mr Rive
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#139 - 2017-03-29 20:36:43 UTC
So I guess the question is, are you happy with it not being stable on the remote reppers @larrkin? If someone if truly going to use this in fights, ESPECIALLY in wormhole space, where neuts abound like crazy, a single bhaal fitted with 7 neuts completely negates the bonus the Dagon gets to NOS.

My suggestion would be, if you really want to make the Dagon cap stable under it's noses, you have another look at the bonuses you're giving it. Realistically, a cap boosting lif or ninazu is FAR more resistant to neuts than the Dagon is.

Why?

A ninazu, using a single capital capacitor booster, has the same cap regen potential as a Dagon with 4 capital NOS (the cap booster gives 400 cap/sec.

Not only that, but the cycle time on the cap booster is better.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#140 - 2017-03-30 00:02:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Spc One wrote:
Not really, max in eve is 99.9% you can't go past that and even that is impossible to achieve.
Same with hardeners, you can't go past 99% resists no matter what you do.


Actually, funny thing, you can!

The caps are soft, not hard, except in very specific and hard-coded circumstances. If they roll over (generally due to rounding) you end up with, um, 'funny' results.

Like the DST that infamously managed to get over 100% resists, got shot, and took infinite damage and exploded!

Presumably without a similar hard limit on web speed reductions a Vindi-bonused grappler would result in a ship very briefly going infinity miles per hour, shooting out of web range, and slowing down somewhere around the next star system over... Lol


That's a whole new level of "slingshot it into warp".