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Remove missile explosion velocity?
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Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#1 - 2017-03-26 06:19:00 UTC
So... it has bugged me for a while. And now I'm bored, so I'm gonna bother with it. The whole implementation of a missile's explosion velocity is idiotic.

There I was one day, looking at my bonused heavy missile able to move at 6km/s. With an explosion velocity of 100m/s

The missile somehow manages to almost immediately accelerate to 6km/s, and then when it detonates it instantaneously stops, and creates an "explosion" (in quotes because I don't think the term actually applies) that moves roughly 1/3 of the speed of a 747 passenger aircraft at cruising speed. Meaning that this heavy missile would likely not even damage a real 747.

For reference, Composition 4 (C-4) has a detonation velocity of almost 8km/s. Apparently in the future, explosives managed to devolve to roughly 1/80th of their potential.

Also... what happened to the momentum of the missile when it detonated? Did most of it's energy go into tearing a hole in reality so that it could somehow instantly stop moving 6km/s and start moving 0.1km/s?

Realistically, the cloud of gas created by the explosion would be moving at 6.1km/s in the direction the missile was travelling, with only the sides of the explosion moving at the laughably slow speed of 100m/s.

Since the whole concept is completely FUBAR, why not just get rid of it? Make damage application solely based on the velocity of the missile.

For example using 6km/s as missile velocity, a stopped ship takes100% application, even if it's a pod. Ship moving at >6km/s takes 0% application, even if it's a sun-bounced supercap. Ship moving at 3km/s takes 50% application.

Then all you need to do is make light/heavy missiles move at different speeds. No idea what you'd do with cruise missiles though, they'd start to move pretty damn slow.

Anyways, /rant.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2017-03-26 06:22:10 UTC
most of it got dissipated by the vacuum of space.

you cannot transfer energy nearly as efficiently through a medium that has virtually zero density to begin with...

frankly you are lucky that explosions work at all.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#3 - 2017-03-26 06:27:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Old Pervert
Most of what, exactly? The explosion? An explosion is a pressure wave. Ergo the explosion is producing gas. Said gas has certain properties (charged with EM as in the case of a Mjolnir) but it is none-the-less still gas.

The gas will of course spread out evenly in each direction (the dissipation you mention), however the cloud of gas will retain its vector imparted by the missile's propulsion prior to detonation.

The leading edge of the pressure wave is what causes damage... a heavy missile would in fact do greater damage to a small ship than a light missile because the quantity of gas produced is higher, thus causing a larger impact surface and greater potential damage.

Edit:
^^ assuming of course the missile's velocity was the same, which it generally is not.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#4 - 2017-03-26 06:40:22 UTC
Bjorn Tyrson wrote:
frankly you are lucky that explosions work at all.


Reality would tend to disagree with you:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXlrn6-ypg
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2017-03-26 06:41:11 UTC
I wouldn't mind if the second half of that "explosion wave equation" got lost in space until I get shot by them.

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Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-03-26 06:57:00 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Most of what, exactly? The explosion? An explosion is a pressure wave. Ergo the explosion is producing gas. Said gas has certain properties (charged with EM as in the case of a Mjolnir) but it is none-the-less still gas.

The gas will of course spread out evenly in each direction (the dissipation you mention), however the cloud of gas will retain its vector imparted by the missile's propulsion prior to detonation.

The leading edge of the pressure wave is what causes damage... a heavy missile would in fact do greater damage to a small ship than a light missile because the quantity of gas produced is higher, thus causing a larger impact surface and greater potential damage.

Edit:
^^ assuming of course the missile's velocity was the same, which it generally is not.



You are right, the explosion is a pressure wave, however, if you see how explosives work in a place with a medium vs how explosives work in a vacuum, you will find that it will work much differently. You will also understand that when the gasses escape said explosion, you will find that the gasses will attempt to fill all the space that it can, attempting to "Equalize" pressure. (Like how if you move gas from a smaller vessel to a larger vessel, despite the amount of gas being the same, you will find that the PSI will actually decrease, because the same amount of gas is attempting to take up a greater amount of volume.)

It will also flow in the direction of least resistance.

Finally, it a game, where their universe basically takes place in liquid, which is the only explanation of velocity caps.

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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2017-03-26 08:39:54 UTC
Old Pervert wrote:
Since the whole concept is completely FUBAR, why not just get rid of it? Make damage application solely based on the velocity of the missile.

It'll need an arbitrary modifier added to each missile type to balance the higher speed of larger missiles with their lower tracking.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

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Do Little
Bluenose Trading
#8 - 2017-03-26 09:50:01 UTC
Trying to reconcile Eve physics and real world physics doesn't work. Best to simply suspend disbelief and enjoy. Tying destructive power to missile velocity won't help. A Machariel can ram a freighter at 1500 m/s - releasing roughly twice as much energy as the bomb that destroyed Nagasaki. Yet neither ship is damaged.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2017-03-26 12:05:33 UTC
Missiles hit every time.

A drake with heavy launchers, all V skills, and two BCS fired it's CN scourge at 8913m/s and does 2k per volley. Do you really want it to apply that 2k near perfectly on an afterburning frigate with the sig radius of a fly?

This idea would pretty much delete sig tanking entirely against missile boats.


To give a flat out stupid example: A t2 fit phoenix is looking at 11.9k volley with faction torps that move 5655m/s. Please tell the class why you feel this dread should be just about the best anti frigate ship in the game.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2017-03-26 12:12:28 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
....To give a flat out stupid example: A t2 fit phoenix is looking at 11.9k volley with faction torps that move 5655m/s. Please tell the class why you feel this dread should be just about the best anti frigate ship in the game.


Because it is currently a big pile of poo.

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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2017-03-26 12:19:19 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
....To give a flat out stupid example: A t2 fit phoenix is looking at 11.9k volley with faction torps that move 5655m/s. Please tell the class why you feel this dread should be just about the best anti frigate ship in the game.


Because it is currently a big pile of poo.


I know, but I don't think the solution to the phoenix being speed tanked by moons is to make the thing delete anything smaller than a battlecruiser in a single volley.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#12 - 2017-03-26 15:28:42 UTC
OP I understand your concerns and actually shared them for a brief period, then I started a series of studies on the math involved in predicting the out come of an explosion in real life compared to how the EvE formula calculates damage. In that study I discovered that for a simple formula that condenses the entirety of the explosions interaction with the target ship into a single instant in time the EvE formula are remarkably accurate. That is not to say that the relevant stats should not be changed, the ship speed aspect of EvE has changed the application of damage since I started in 2009 and that change dis-proportionally affects missiles and favors turrets because of the math formulas used. Based solely on my simulations an increase between 5% and 10% in the explosion velocities of all missiles should bring them up to about par with turrets in a general sense.

But missiles hit 100% of the time you might say so this would make them OP, not specifically but it does have the potential to produce that affect. Because of this you could not apply the same percentage increase to all missiles, each type would need to be looked at as a separate entity. Another factor that could be used to balance this would be minor tweaks to the turret formula with the wrecking shot portion a prime candidate.

If you are going to complain about missiles why stop with explosion velocity.

A missile in the near total vacuum of space would continue to accelerate as long as it had fuel left to burn so why to our missiles have a maximum speed.

Why do turrets hit instantly at ranges well past 100,000 kilometers, when in real life at ranges as short as 1 or 2 kilometers a missile would actually hit it's target before the shell from a turret would.

While we are speaking of turrets we need to mention that the laws of physics are completely ignored. A full 9 gun broad side of the 16" turrets on a WW II battleship would drive them 10 to 15 sideways in the water yet they were nearly 1,000 feet long and had to overcome the waters resistance to movement. Yet magically here in EvE we are able to fire a 9 gun broadside 1400mm (55.118") artillery and it has no affect on our ships even though we have nothing to resists those forces.
mkint
#13 - 2017-03-27 03:25:27 UTC
Making comparisons to real life are automatically wrong. If you want it removed you need a better reason than "I don't like it." It would be interesting if they ran this idea through on sisi and see how it plays out (badly, obviously, but how badly could still be interesting.)

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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#14 - 2017-03-27 05:58:53 UTC
Missiles should have an explosion velocity of at least their target classes unmodded speed.
So HM's that's about 300 from memory.

However to make that work (& it could be done) the DrF would need increasing so the smaller faster targets took even less damage. Sharper curve basically.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#15 - 2017-03-27 13:49:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
However to make that work (& it could be done) the DrF would need increasing so the smaller faster targets took even less damage. Sharper curve basically.

DrF needs to go away, it does not need to be increased.
Remove it, re-balance the damage output, explosion velocities and explosion radius of all missiles and we would have more consistency across all possible combinations of target and missiles sizes and allow for 100% application of missile damage in situations where you would expect to have 100% application of damage like hitting a BS with a light missile or BS missiles hitting a cap ship or titan.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#16 - 2017-03-27 13:54:48 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
....To give a flat out stupid example: A t2 fit phoenix is looking at 11.9k volley with faction torps that move 5655m/s. Please tell the class why you feel this dread should be just about the best anti frigate ship in the game.


Because it is currently a big pile of poo.


I know, but I don't think the solution to the phoenix being speed tanked by moons is to make the thing delete anything smaller than a battlecruiser in a single volley.


If you remove the velocity factor, the radius would still be there. While you can sig bloat a target with painters, you could still have the systems where larger missile class don't fully apply if you wanted.

Also, why is the short range large missile stuck with shittier application than the long range one? Isn't that the opposite of every other weapon system in the damn game, even other missiles classes?
Cade Windstalker
#17 - 2017-03-27 18:45:08 UTC
Why?

There's no gameplay reason for this, it's entirely based on 'lore' and not balance.

Missiles used to apply fully to everything if they hit. The result was the Raven being the king of PvP ships and ridiculously broken. Lets not go back to those days, thanks.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2017-03-27 19:21:20 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
DrF needs to go away, it does not need to be increased.
Remove it, re-balance the damage output, explosion velocities and explosion radius of all missiles and we would have more consistency across all possible combinations of target and missiles sizes and allow for 100% application of missile damage in situations where you would expect to have 100% application of damage like hitting a BS with a light missile or BS missiles hitting a cap ship or titan.

Damage reduction factor of 5.5 is equal to not having it; anything lower is better. One kind of missiles has 5.5, all others have lower. Removing it would only make it harder to hit targets. Also, DRF is central to how precision missiles work.

I'd even out the DRF numbers between different missile sizes. Citadel missiles should all have the same DRF as light missiles, since both are basic tech 1 ammo. Only tech 2 and any other special missiles should have varying DRF values. Tech 1 and faction missiles should all have the same DRF, something comfortable to use against their intended target.


Also, Phoenixes would hit better if capital ships didn't drift almost as fast as battleships.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#19 - 2017-03-28 02:51:42 UTC
Explosive Velocity in Missile Formula is fine, what we really need is to remove stand-alone Explosive Radius vs Ship Signature Radius when Ship sit still or slower than Velocity.