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Quafe Convoy Destroyed By Caldari Forces On Caldari-Gallente Border

Author
Aradina Varren
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#141 - 2017-03-27 19:18:46 UTC
Gwion Achasse wrote:
Shooting innocent convoys delivering something of actual quality and enjoyment to an otherwise dour and depressing corporate wasteland is hardly low for a culture that grows children in tubes.


This statement brought to you by Quafe.

There's no better soft drink on the market for quenching your thirst after insulting others based on nothing but the circumstances of their birth.


On a less sarcastic note, I take back what I said about people being reasonable in this thread. This thread has become a great example of people without critical thinking skills who are willing to take every opportunity to further their political goals, including advocating for war. Because now is a fantastic time for a full scale war. I won't name names, because they'll name themselves by getting offended over this statement.

Have some respect.

Feels Pretty Soft to Me.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#142 - 2017-03-27 20:54:27 UTC
Maybe you should name names, because I might be missing something here, namely - who has been advocating for a war? I mean aside from the couple of usual suspects whom I thought nobody took seriously / everyone has on their ignore filters already, though even from them I didn't manage to pinpoint anything of the sort in a cursory glance.
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#143 - 2017-03-27 21:20:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaret Victorian
Arrendis wrote:

Simple: those freighters start off delivering Quafe to various systems in a specific constellation. Then they have to come back, empty or full. So instead of wasting all that space, Quafe offers a nominal 'redemption' value, say 0.05 ISK, on each bottle (price not accurate). This redemption value is probably less than it costs them to make the bottle. Then they stuff all those bottles in the freighters that have to get back to the bottling plants anyway, and save shipping on new bottles.

It's not that simple in business, usually, but I'd like to see their numbers, if that's the case. You'd need to set up logistics and personnel for a buyback program (let's say people put them in some automated crates that dispense money for bottles, you'd still need maintenance crew to sort this out), then load and unload these ships with empty bottles (they'd probably have staff for that sort of work anyway, but that's still a job you need to pay for in any case), then fuel costs (say, they are maybe partly compensating it with that buyback program). We'd also need to factor in the percent of bottles that are bought back for numbers to make sense and then calculate if the whole thing would be cheaper than producing a new bottle from scrap.

At a glance, it's easier to just let people toss the bottles in a garbage bin and let them sort this out at a reporocessing plant.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#144 - 2017-03-27 21:38:36 UTC
The State are many things, stupid isn't one of them and this was stupid to a significant degree if we're to go by the official story. They wouldn't start shooting up unarmed freighters over Quafe returning some bloody empty drink canisters if there wasn't more to it than that.

Of course, exactly what 'more' there is to it is close to impossible to tell. As far as I know, we don't actually know that the cargo was just empty canisters, or if the crew didn't number potential intelligence operatives among them, or any other number of potential actual reasons for this display of violence.

For all the **** the State sometimes pull, I sort of doubt they'd fire on unarmed vessels without warning over something like this without attempts to turn them back, boarding and arresting the captains, or any other number of things you can do to enforce a closed border. Warp disruption, force compliance, warning shots (quite a few of them if necessary, those hulls can take a decent beating) and so on are all reasonable to expect and something no civilian captain carrying bloody bottles would try to force themselves past in an unarmed vessel.

So either these State forces destroyed multiple unarmed haulers full of harmless cargo and crew without using any of the tools available to them to enforce this border without such bloodshed, or the haulers were piloted by recent converts to the EoM or some crap like that.

Or...

There's more to this than what has been reported, unless the State's gone more insane than under Heth, and that's just not something I'm willing to assume. They're crazy, but Caldari crazy. This nonsense right here is a crazy none of our nations can claim just yet.
Teinyhr
Ourumur
#145 - 2017-03-27 22:02:16 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
There's more to this than what has been reported,


This is the current consensus unless I'm mistaken.
Makoto Priano
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#146 - 2017-03-27 22:05:26 UTC
Thank you, Mizhara.

Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries: exploring the edge of the known, advancing the state of the art. Would you like to know more?

James Syagrius
Reclamation
#147 - 2017-03-27 22:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Makoto Priano wrote:
On the other hand, you've been quite vocal on your view that the State as an entity has obviously attempted to weaponize Kyonoke to attack the Federation, and have militated for total war on that basis, with no proof whatsoever of your unfounded belief. What's more, you have been consistent and direct in your barrage of insults, minor and major, over this affair.
Well thank you, I do try to stay on message. While convoluted, I usually do have a destination in mind when I start a journey. It is a pity you and I can’t have a civil conversation, it might be fascinating. But back to it then…

There have been many theories postulated in this conversation and very little in the way of evidence offered, including by you. Kyonoke aside…. Why is it do you think that I, a man of commerce would agitate for such a costly resolution?

Makoto Priano wrote:
Syagrius, I don't give a damn if you're offended. You're going to be offended at anything the Caldari do at this stage.
Well I suppose I shouldn’t expect an answer, It is easier when you simply dismiss contrary views isn’t it, but I shall soldier on.

It may come as a shock. But I don’t particularly care what you think of me, or most others for that matter. All the lovely, “James, why won't you be nice;" messages, from the codependent conciliation crowd, have I fear fallen upon deaf ears.

There is indeed a time for diplomacy, then there is a time for truth. The truth my dear is rarely diplomatic when we make it so, it’s called a lie.

If the honest facts of the matter are ever known, one of us will be vindicated. Or worse still, both partially.

James Syagrius wrote:
Makoto Priano wrote:
Should I have started with bowing and scraping, Syagrius, while you and other nationalists insult us at every turn?
No, I don't expect anything of the kind, and you don’t owe me anything. You seem to be conflating what I say with what others have said.
You do indeed make a grand show of being an honest broker and above it all, but let’s be honest shall we, your primary loyalty is to the State, right or wrong, good or bad, and above all other considerations.

Everyone should remember that when listening to your elucidations.
TomHorn
Horn Brigade
#148 - 2017-03-27 22:26:53 UTC
You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.

I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.

They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .

Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.

Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.

Oland Jan
Doomheim
#149 - 2017-03-28 00:08:59 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
, its safe.
Unless you are a crewman stacking bottles for Quafe. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but when you try to defend something like this, from whichever side, it just makes you look stupid.
Jaret Victorian
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#150 - 2017-03-28 01:11:38 UTC
Good thinking, Mizhara. If a conspiracy theory sounds too weird, it's probably true.
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#151 - 2017-03-28 03:22:38 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.

I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.

They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .

Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.

Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.


The exact circumstances surrounding the interdiction and flotilla's destruction are unknown. Therefore, claims that the vessels had to be destroyed aren't holding very well yet, at least until supporting evidence comes out.
TomHorn
Horn Brigade
#152 - 2017-03-28 04:02:49 UTC
Yoshitaka Moromuo wrote:
TomHorn wrote:
You defy Customs at your own peril. If you choose to , they catch you , they'll blow the dam hell out you , this ain't nothing new. This is Customs in New Eden , not just the State.

I been blown up by Caldari Customs couple times , i was in the wrong . Back when i was running combat boosters out of Jita 4/4 , they were then considered contraband. I was running fast frigate , still got picked up , warned , i thought i ain't handing over all these boosters , thought id be in warp before he could get his scram on. I didn't get second warning after ignoring his first, trying to warp away , all of sudden engines stopped blown to hell. Lost all my goods , got heavy fine , downgrading in my concord security status.

They've got job to do , they enforce it. My guess , they ignored Customs warnings and paid for it .

Seems black and white to me , everyone knew the border was closed. Convoy tried to cross the border and got blown up. I don't see any crimes or atrocites committed by the State here. I just see State forces doing the job they are paid to do.

Yes, its sad the vessels had to be destroyed , maybe some have lost their lives. Don't break the law , do as your told , you've nothing to fear, here in the Caldari State. Like being in any other nation in New Eden , its safe.


The exact circumstances surrounding the interdiction and flotilla's destruction are unknown. Therefore, claims that the vessels had to be destroyed aren't holding very well yet, at least until supporting evidence comes out.


Yeah, i can see that Yoshitaka . Maybe something will come out in the next few days , we aren't a democracy so there are no guarantees. No doubt the Senate will be complaining , along with the furor of some of the capsuleers , guess there is a good chance a statement will be made.

I have faith in our forces , and that they act appropriately. I feel that need for evidence for their actions is not required. Not for public consumption anyway. Those further up the chain of command will receive those answers , no doubt will the CEP .
Yoshitaka Moromuo
Burning Skies
Apocalypse Now.
#153 - 2017-03-28 04:49:27 UTC
There are many - myself included - that believe evidence is in fact required. Per the last report:

"... and the Chief Executive Panel has warned Caldari corporations currently engaged in business with Gallente registered organizations that no non-capsuleer traffic will be permitted to cross the border into the State, regardless of any pre-approved customs and immigration documentation."

Quafe Company, to my knowledge, operates on a status similar to many corporations within the State as it is, in addition to its home operations within the Gallente Federation. The crews were - per report - full corporate citizens of the State, and were on a return trip which should not have been barred under the last portion of the quoted statement.

A compelling reason, along with compelling evidence, is needed for destruction of the flotilla to be considered a valid enforcement action in this case. Regardless, the case is already being brought to both the DED and CBT by Quafe Company - and is thus out of our capsule-bound hands.
Akira Mapindazi
#154 - 2017-03-28 07:47:05 UTC
When the reason for this apparent tragedy is declassified and made public the commanding officers in charge will either vindicate the State or choose to demonstrate Caldari honor and shoulder the full burden of their decision. In either case we can all rest assured that justice has been done or will be done. With the notable exception of the infamous coward Tibus Heth Caldari are not known to run from the consequences of our actions. I strongly feel if the reasons can be declassified the actions will vindicate the State.

The first thing that came to my mind, and it is clearly without any facts to support it and I openly admit and make that fact a preamble to my personal conspiracy theory is: Vessels loaded with plague were being shipped to Gallente space from Caldari space by non-State infiltrators in an effort to make it look like the State was actively involved in such despicable acts. Intelligence officers of the State discovered the plot and were forced to completely "sanitize" the Quafe haulers before the infiltrators could launch escape pods and threaten the crews that would have been sent to recover survivors. In a circumstance like this I would understand both the kill order and the lack of survivors. Many forces would love to see the State and the Federation in full on warfare for their own selfish reasons. Disrupting a terrorist plot would also explain why the State has been reluctant to give any meaningful details, perhaps all the planners and participants have not been swept up yet and the State has no need to show it's cards and allow them notice that a net is closing in on them.

I find it more reasonable to assume harsh measures were used because of a grave threat and not just because of callous bluster and sabre rattling. I am not claiming to be impartial or to have bullet proof facts to support what I am suggesting "could" have happened. It just makes more sense that something extremely bad was going to happen if Caldari forces did not initiate swift and harsh actions. If this is not the scenario type that transpired and it was a field command decision against otherwise harmless cargo ships the Caldari will not tolerate it and the State's justice will be visited on the responsible parties.
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2017-03-28 15:45:42 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
I have faith in our forces , and that they act appropriately. I feel that need for evidence for their actions is not required. Not for public consumption anyway. Those further up the chain of command will receive those answers, no doubt will the CEP.


Blind faith is a wonderful thing... for those who seek to use you.

The moment you got your implants, you became nothing but a weapon to them. You, like all the rest of us, are not truly a citizen of anywhere. You are a loaded gun, to be used when possible, and pointed away from their precious nation-state the rest of the time. That's why the Pendulum Games exist, after all: to control potentially useful assets, while still keeping them away from 'decent people'.

Remove your blinders. No-one in power should ever go unquestioned.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#156 - 2017-03-28 16:32:38 UTC
DRINK REVENGE !

IT TASTES LIKE STARSI !

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Teinyhr
Ourumur
#157 - 2017-03-28 18:31:22 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
DRINK REVENGE !

IT TASTES LIKE STARSI !


Revenge Starsi, it tastes like drink
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#158 - 2017-03-28 20:19:21 UTC
Teinyhr wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
DRINK REVENGE !

IT TASTES LIKE STARSI !


Revenge Starsi, it tastes like drink

Starsi taste, drink revenge.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Graelyn
Tzedakah
Aegis Militia
#159 - 2017-03-28 22:47:28 UTC
I still prefer it to Quafe. I like a touch of sweetness, not a bucket per sip.

Cardinal Graelyn

Amarr Loyalist of the Year - YC113

Gwion Achasse
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2017-03-29 14:06:44 UTC
Aradina Varren wrote:
Gwion Achasse wrote:
Shooting innocent convoys delivering something of actual quality and enjoyment to an otherwise dour and depressing corporate wasteland is hardly low for a culture that grows children in tubes.


This statement brought to you by Quafe.

There's no better soft drink on the market for quenching your thirst after insulting others based on nothing but the circumstances of their birth.


On a less sarcastic note, I take back what I said about people being reasonable in this thread. This thread has become a great example of people without critical thinking skills who are willing to take every opportunity to further their political goals, including advocating for war. Because now is a fantastic time for a full scale war. I won't name names, because they'll name themselves by getting offended over this statement.

Have some respect.


And this statement brought to you by...?

I do believe that blowing up convoys that are historically part of your rival political entity is one of the least reasonable maneuvers I can think of.

I don't want full scale war, but I will not tolerate attacks on a national corporation (which is highly symbolic, regardless of the reasons) nor will I back down in the face of those with loyalties to the State.

If you don't want war, don't throw the first punch.