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Quafe Convoy Destroyed By Caldari Forces On Caldari-Gallente Border

Author
Diana Kim
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#321 - 2017-04-09 12:12:25 UTC
Such information is usually available on a need to know basis.
If you don't have access to it, it means you don't need to know.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

AlexanderFranklinJames Horn
Doomheim
#322 - 2017-04-09 14:19:33 UTC
TomHorn wrote:
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question.

We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know.


Stand down Ramal .


Lets...let the dead , rest in peace.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#323 - 2017-04-09 19:05:48 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
The blockade doesn't extend to capsuleers, so for us, the validity of the Caldari military's actions is an academic question.

We capsuleers don't especially deserve to know why those people were killed, no. But their families (and inevitably the public) deserve to know.

Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

James Syagrius
Reclamation
#324 - 2017-04-09 22:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed.
Actually it's not and I think you know better.

Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it.

Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#325 - 2017-04-09 22:46:49 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Considering the crew were all Caldari, whose to say they haven't already been informed and the matter settled internally? This was a matter of Caldari shooting Caldari. Quafe just supplied the ships that got destroyed.
Actually it's not and I think you know better.

Personally, I think we all know what this was, and in time will know the truth of it.

Until we do, fear not. I will remind you regularly.

So the Caldari military didn't shoot Quafe ships full of Caldari citizens? I must have misread somewhere then.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Oland Jan
Doomheim
#326 - 2017-04-09 23:07:36 UTC
I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#327 - 2017-04-09 23:42:46 UTC
Oland Jan wrote:
I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why.

No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer.

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Kolodi Ramal
Sanxing Yi
#328 - 2017-04-10 01:53:55 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Oland Jan wrote:
I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why.

No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer.

Disagreed.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#329 - 2017-04-10 01:59:50 UTC
Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Tyrel Toov wrote:
Oland Jan wrote:
I think what he is saying James, is that if he kills his children at his house you don't get to ask why.

No, you can ask why, I just wouldn't owe you an answer.

Disagreed.

Why's that?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#330 - 2017-04-10 16:59:46 UTC
Because certain cultures in the cluster think that they are owed an explanation by everyone for anything.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#331 - 2017-04-10 17:47:43 UTC
I think you misunderstand taking advantage of their freedom to speak, question and raise concerns with thinking they're owed actual answers, although I'm sure some people do actually think that.

It's pretty simple. When unpalatable events occur and there's suspicion of foul play, some people don't blindly shut their brains off and go with whatever the powers that be blurf out publicly and instead ask questions or make statements of their own. Neither of these things are owed any kind of response, but it's very often telling what does get a response, what does not get a response and the nature of said response.

When I question something, it's rarely because I expect to get an actual answer. Most entities in New Eden are incurably dishonest and malicious so most responses aren't particularly trustworthy to begin with, but it's almost always useful to see where things get stonewalled and where there's endless deflection, hemming, hawing or inconsistencies. In some few cases, you may even get an honest answer, but even when you don't there's much to learn.

And sometimes, most importantly, it's simply a matter of getting the question out there. We have a massive audience on these boards, and if a few of them go "heeeey yeah! What about this or that and so on?!" the important objective has already been achieved.

When there's no explanations or answers to critical questioning, it's a tell-tale sign of misconduct.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#332 - 2017-04-10 18:18:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Most entities in New Eden are incurably dishonest and malicious....


This, this, right here, is why I tend not to listen to you about political stuff, Miz. You seem to see the world largely in black and white-- mostly inky black. My own experience has more suggested an abundance of apes (humans: never not animals) and a shortage of both heroes and villains. People are capable of awful things and wonderful things, but either way, they're still just people.

I don't think that'd probably change, even if I'd seen everything you have; even my predecessor didn't see things in such an awful way. Fundamentally, it's like we occupy different worlds.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#333 - 2017-04-10 18:45:33 UTC
You seem to think my statement is somehow 'inky black' or 'villanous'. They're strong words, sure, but gather together any random selection of human beings and start gauging their honesty, selfishness and so on. Are you willing to wager on what the majority will qualify as?

Now throw institutional selfishness and greed into the picture and you have pretty much any entity of relevance in New Eden.

Think they come out any better than the random selection?

People are just people indeed, and individually none of them are heroes, villains, truly righteous or truly evil. This doesn't change that as a species we're tribal, we're 'us vs them', we're hard-wired for self-preservation at the expense of others if necessary and equally hard-wired not to be able to truly empathize with any significant amount of other people. This isn't evil, this isn't villainous or any of the sort.

... but it does mean that entities in New Eden that aren't incurably dishonest and malicious are truly few and far between.

Nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't mean the big picture doesn't remain rather ugly.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#334 - 2017-04-10 19:05:00 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You seem to think my statement is somehow 'inky black' or 'villanous'. They're strong words, sure, but gather together any random selection of human beings and start gauging their honesty, selfishness and so on. Are you willing to wager on what the majority will qualify as?

Now throw institutional selfishness and greed into the picture and you have pretty much any entity of relevance in New Eden.

Think they come out any better than the random selection?

People are just people indeed, and individually none of them are heroes, villains, truly righteous or truly evil. This doesn't change that as a species we're tribal, we're 'us vs them', we're hard-wired for self-preservation at the expense of others if necessary and equally hard-wired not to be able to truly empathize with any significant amount of other people. This isn't evil, this isn't villainous or any of the sort.

... but it does mean that entities in New Eden that aren't incurably dishonest and malicious are truly few and far between.

Nuance is all well and good, but that doesn't mean the big picture doesn't remain rather ugly.


Malice, noun. The intention or desire to do evil; ill will. Desire to inflict injury, harm, or suffering on another, either because of a hostile impulse or out of deep-seated meanness. Desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another.

Malicious, adjective. Characterized by malice; intending or intended to do harm.

I'm sure I can find a few more definitions, but, basically, malice isn't a passive thing like apathy, or as indirectly harmful as selfishness and greed; it's an active will to cause harm.

Funnily, though, I think you said exactly what you meant: you might not consciously think that almost everybody is actually seeking to harm people you care about, Miz, but you pretty consistently act like you think exactly that.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#335 - 2017-04-10 19:28:28 UTC
I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people - intentionally or otherwise, it turns out they were.

Every.

Time.

This is not hyperbole. This isn't pessimism, misanthropy or paranoia. It's documented history. You can try to dismiss my views and stance on things with your shade, but this is just how it is. Trusting my people's safety to actual avowed enemies is probably the dumbest possible thing anyone can do, by both logic and proven history.

This may not play into your agenda or naivete, but that's just how it is.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#336 - 2017-04-10 19:34:38 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people - intentionally or otherwise, it turns out they were.

Every.

Time.

This is not hyperbole. This isn't pessimism, misanthropy or paranoia. It's documented history. You can try to dismiss my views and stance on things with your shade, but this is just how it is. Trusting my people's safety to actual avowed enemies is probably the dumbest possible thing anyone can do, by both logic and proven history.

This may not play into your agenda or naivete, but that's just how it is.


You are mistaken about this, but there's no way I can convince you of that. You act like you have proof-- and maybe you think you do-- but mostly what you have is a bunch of stuff you decided was suspicious. Your honesty is more than made up for by your paranoia.

And that, Miz, is why I don't trust your perceptions at all.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#337 - 2017-04-10 20:08:47 UTC
Your powers of mind reading are impressive if you know who I've assumed are threats and who I haven't, which is the only way you could tell if I'm mistaken or not. Trust me, my experiences with SFRIM getting in the way of the well-being of my people are far too recent history to be part of what I've been talking about right here. It should have been readily apparent that I never had any trust in that regard, for good reason and rather vindicated on that as it turned out.

That you find issue with why I don't trust SFRIM at all anymore is equal parts tragic and funny, since I know you were once capable of seeing the perspective of others. It shouldn't be difficult to see why someone's leery about avowed enemies of my people repeatedly keeping innocents away from their kin, and once even away from proper medical aid for days when it could have been done in minutes. Out of spite.

I genuinely don't care if you trust my 'perceptions'. I am disappointed by you dismissing the objective facts in favor of your emotional attachment to your leash holder.

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#338 - 2017-04-10 20:13:59 UTC
I mean, I need to say at this point that groups are inherently incapable of selfish motivations AS a group. Only individuals can be selfish - what looks like a selfish group is simply a group that is prioritising successful outcomes for its members at the expense of those it considers to be outliers.

Where I come from, we consider those groups to be successful.

There's a big difference, in my estimation, between groups acting in the interests of their members and people being selfish to a vulnerable individual.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#339 - 2017-04-10 20:16:46 UTC
Your disappointment is, to me, in line with your other political opinions, Miz.

Warped. Unreliable. Worthless.

Dust.

It doesn't make you wrong, mind. It's more that your opinion is without weight.

That's actually a little remarkable. So, I maybe should apologize for coming back to it again; it's just that finding that I actually am totally disregarding someone's opinion, it's unusual enough that I kind of end up dwelling on why.

Because Arrendis is of course correct: it does mean devaluing your experience. I need to be careful.
Syenna Celeste
The Green Machine
Shadow Cartel
#340 - 2017-04-10 20:22:15 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
I act this way because every time I assumed someone wasn't out to harm my people...


"My people". These are two words that you say a lot and like every over used phrase you can only repeat it so many times before it loses all meaning to anybody still listening. Who are your people, Mizhara? Who are these poor, defenseless innocents that you claim to protect? Are you protecting them from your cushy seat in MC? Are you somehow better placed now to judge those in less noble professions than outright piracy?

You spent so long trying to protect your "people" from the likes of me, and you failed utterly. And yet you're still here claiming to fight the good fight with words and a complete lack of action. Put your ISK where your mouth is, if only so the next time we slap your filthy, tattoo spoiled face we might have some of it fall out.

Apologies to the rest of the thread trying to tie up this diplomatic spat. I hope you'll be able to reach an amicable resolution now the plague has been dealt with.

Put your hands around my heart and squeeze me until I'm dry.