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Request: remove jump skills from combat capitals
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Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1 - 2017-03-23 18:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarisen Gream
EDIT 2: In light of the comments and discussion which has taken place here. i would like to modify my request.

Instead of removing the jump skills requirement from combat capitals, we take a look at the levels required and possibly shorten the level requirements for Carriers. I was looking at the skill requirements for Dreads and they only have Jump Drive Operation I as a requirements (their other skill requirements I have no issue with), while carriers have: Jump Drive Operations V, Jump Drive Calibration III, and Jump Fuel Conservation IV.

Using one of my alpha clones to check (newish character) a dread would take about 94 days to train into while the carrier would take take nearly 145 days (I looked at a Moros and Thanny off an Amarr alpha clone). So would it be possible to try to get the carrier training time inline with the dread train time?




Original post
((Not a lot of meat here.

Simply remove jump skill(s) requirements from combat capitals and let the children of New Eden do what they will with it. Capital ships can now use gates, not the smartest way to travel but what happens happens.

- please note that I don't currently fly any combat capitals, love my subcapitals to much.

edit: from reading the comments, and replies, I feel the best middle ground for this would to remove the jump skills from Dreads and Carrier only. Would have the least major change impact on the game.))

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Cade Windstalker
#2 - 2017-03-23 19:17:53 UTC
This is a pretty terrible idea and serves little to no useful purpose that I can see. Anyone moving a capital ship solely by gates is, to put it bluntly, an idiot.

You haven't even put a reason or potential use case for this change in here, it's just a "why not". A change doesn't need a "why not" it needs a "why should we" and there's none of that here.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#3 - 2017-03-23 20:32:09 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is a pretty terrible idea and serves little to no useful purpose that I can see. Anyone moving a capital ship solely by gates is, to put it bluntly, an idiot.

You haven't even put a reason or potential use case for this change in here, it's just a "why not". A change doesn't need a "why not" it needs a "why should we" and there's none of that here.


I did say "let the children of New Eden do what they will with it."

EVE as far as I know has an underlying rule, just because you can sit in a ship doesn't mean you should undock said ship. As I see it, the current limitations was based on capitals ships not being able to use gates to travel. Now that they can, it is still the wise choice to move them jump drives, but removing that "need" for jump skills opens up more ship options for people who "want to fly" capital ships, but probably as you said, fall into the idiot department (I added a few worlds) and should not.

Command ships had their requirements changed as the mechanics that had been built for have changed. It is now easier to get into them. Capital ships have had many of their mechanics changed but not the mechanics. EVE is a lovely sandbox and I do love to read about what stupid things people do. This just give more people opportunities to do stupid stuff.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#4 - 2017-03-23 20:41:57 UTC
I suppose this would mean less skills would be required for say... anomaly ratting with a carrier in a null-sec system if you bought the carrier there.

It would be consistent I suppose... I mean you can fly a covert ops without any cloaking skills trained and there's probably less reason to do that than to fly a capital without a jump drive.
Bjorn Tyrson
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2017-03-23 20:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjorn Tyrson
I could get behind this, now that they can use gates the requirement for jump drives is irrelevant.
yes, someone moving a cap by gates alone is an idiot, but why protect them from their own stupidity, more dead capitals can only be a good thing for the eve economy.

+1 for more dead capitals!!!!

it also makes things more streamlined for training purposes I've only recently hit the point where I'd like to fly a capital ship, I am in a per-wis map right now though, and don't have a remap due for another 4 months, with the current setup, if I want to maintain an optimal remap, I will need to wait 4 months, switch to int+mem, train up the jump skills, train up the capital shield/armor skills (either or both) then wait out the rest of the year to switch back. then train capital guns+skills (okay I can train the capital guns on my current map) but we are still looking at a year and a half + from now before I can fly one.

with removal of jump skills, I could train the gun skills, train the ship skills, remap in 4 months, train the shield/armor/jump skills and be flying in fleet in 6 months.

or spend a **** ton of isk on injectors I guess. or just train those skills off map. but there are better things I would rather spend my isk on, like ships to get blown up.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#6 - 2017-03-23 21:49:18 UTC
@Bjorn Trraon, I am glad someone thinks like me, and is better able to word it. I am a causal industrial, and the circle of life in New Eden requires things to be made and then blowm up so it can go back into the circle. EVE is hard and a change like this would just make it a little more dark as we fuel the servers with tears.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Zerzzes Markarian
McCloud and Markarian Trade and Logistics Corp.
#7 - 2017-03-24 00:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Zerzzes Markarian
Go even a step further and make the jump drive a low slot module (and give all caps an additional low slot). Will also lead to many dead carriers from people who dropped the jump drive for more DPS while rating and can't use an exit cyno....

But what I really don't get why need Jump fuel conservation 4 for a carrier.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#8 - 2017-03-24 03:22:48 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Not a lot of meat here.

Simply remove jump skill(s) requirements from combat capitals and let the children of New Eden do what they will with it. Capital ships can now use gates, not the smartest way to travel but what happens happens.

- please note that I don't currently fly any combat capitals, love my subcapitals to much.


Blop can do gate to gate for long time, and it also have jump drive. And guess what? It do require Jump Drive Skill as well.

Argument that capital ship don't need jump drive skill because it can do gate to gate is dumb as hell.

And, most alliance who have capital ships fleet wouldn't let you to fly capital ship in fleet without jump drive skills at all
mkint
#9 - 2017-03-24 03:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
unidenify wrote:

And, most alliance who have capital ships fleet wouldn't let you to fly capital ship in fleet without jump drive skills at all

That's exactly the point of the OP. The goal isn't to buff blobs. The point is to lure dummies who can't even fall ass-first into a blob out into the open in expensive ships alone so they can die easy.

The skill requirements for blops is irrelevant here. It was a loose justification on why it would be okay. Not the reason why it should be done.

The key question is if this change would be good for the game. Those stupid people who lose carriers they shouldn't have been flying, will their lost subs be counterbalanced by the increase of content? Or would the impact of this type of change effectively be nil anyway?

I suspect for this change to have any kind of broader impact, it might need to be coupled with allowing capitals in highsec, which as long as highsec cynojammers remain in place, I'm not entirely sure would be a bad thing.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Maria Dragoon
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2017-03-24 05:20:10 UTC
Just remove jump drives as requirement, give all jump able ships a new slot called "Jump drive" Make meta jump drives, and a tech two jump drive.

Life is good.

Life is really simple, but we insist on making it complicated. Confucius

"A man who talks to people who aren't real is crazy. A man who talks to people who aren't real and writes down what they say is an author."
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#11 - 2017-03-24 10:51:42 UTC
unidenify wrote:
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Not a lot of meat here.

Simply remove jump skill(s) requirements from combat capitals and let the children of New Eden do what they will with it. Capital ships can now use gates, not the smartest way to travel but what happens happens.

- please note that I don't currently fly any combat capitals, love my subcapitals to much.


Blop can do gate to gate for long time, and it also have jump drive. And guess what? It do require Jump Drive Skill as well.

Argument that capital ship don't need jump drive skill because it can do gate to gate is dumb as hell.

And, most alliance who have capital ships fleet wouldn't let you to fly capital ship in fleet without jump drive skills at all



I was typing up the OP while at work and wasn't thinking about all the different ships.

Maybe the best middle group would be - Dreads and Carriers lose their jumpskill requirements, while Supers and Titans maintain theirs...

Quickly thinking about a reason to maintain the BLOPs jump requirements, would be that they are a t2 ship, which ask the ability to bridge other players, which then let me remember that the titan has a bridge, so I thought about that middle ground....

I will go adjust the OP.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Wolfino
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2017-03-24 11:14:12 UTC
The point of capitals in the first place is that they can jump like that. Its half the reason people fly them is to be able to quickly project their influence.
Cade Windstalker
#13 - 2017-03-24 15:28:58 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is a pretty terrible idea and serves little to no useful purpose that I can see. Anyone moving a capital ship solely by gates is, to put it bluntly, an idiot.

You haven't even put a reason or potential use case for this change in here, it's just a "why not". A change doesn't need a "why not" it needs a "why should we" and there's none of that here.


I did say "let the children of New Eden do what they will with it."

EVE as far as I know has an underlying rule, just because you can sit in a ship doesn't mean you should undock said ship. As I see it, the current limitations was based on capitals ships not being able to use gates to travel. Now that they can, it is still the wise choice to move them jump drives, but removing that "need" for jump skills opens up more ship options for people who "want to fly" capital ships, but probably as you said, fall into the idiot department (I added a few worlds) and should not.

Command ships had their requirements changed as the mechanics that had been built for have changed. It is now easier to get into them. Capital ships have had many of their mechanics changed but not the mechanics. EVE is a lovely sandbox and I do love to read about what stupid things people do. This just give more people opportunities to do stupid stuff.


Yes, but those basic requirements exist to make sure you can at least minimally make use of the hull before undocking it. In the case of Capitals moving them by gates only is idiotic and suicidal. In order to actually *use* a capital you need to be able to use the Jump Drive, which is an innate feature of the hull.

Also, as I said, "why not" is not a reason for anything. "let the children of New Eden do what they will with it" is "why not" with more letters. "Because it will enable stupid" is not a reason either, stupid doesn't need enabling, and letting someone sit in a ship without being able to use a core intrinsic feature of the hull that cannot be removed is pointless.

Command Ships had their requirements changed because there are legitimate uses for a Command Ship hull that do not include boosting a fleet. There was a very clear "why should we make this change" there, with a reasonable and thought out answer.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2017-03-24 15:38:51 UTC
"Mother, tell us of the old days. How it was when the Great Tieracide happened"

Back in the dim dark days of Eve (circa 2013), there was a great celebration when changes were announced to the prerequisite skills for capital ships. Gone were the days of Battleship 5! Its tyranny would no longer rule the skillpaths of so many of New Eden's finest capsuleers who felt destined to launch themselves into the void in the most massive ships of all.

But their joy was short lived when they learned the Truth(tm). For CCP, the great Creator, had fully extended both of his middle fingers, and said "Fuckest thou, our slavering children, who clamor about our heels looking for handouts of free skillpoiints. Thou shalt not know the joy of shorter training times! Yea, we say unto you fuckest thou, for we are simply replacing Battleship 5 with other requirements, but thy skill path shall take largely the same amount of time. And moreover, those of you, our children, who do not already have these new requirements shall surely remain able to fly thy ships, but thou shalt not be able to train those skills again until the new requirements are met, for we shall not gift them to you. For we dislike your dickish ways. Amen."

And a great wailing was heard, children, and thus shall it ever be the way. Because people are bad.

tl:dr: These were made requirements when BS 5 was removed because - dun dun dun - CCP wants the train to a capital ship to take about as long as it takes (your skill remap OCD not withstanding).

Thus endeth the lesson.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Cade Windstalker
#15 - 2017-03-24 16:08:03 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
"Mother, tell us of the old days. How it was when the Great Tieracide happened"

Back in the dim dark days of Eve (circa 2013), there was a great celebration when changes were announced to the prerequisite skills for capital ships. Gone were the days of Battleship 5! Its tyranny would no longer rule the skillpaths of so many of New Eden's finest capsuleers who felt destined to launch themselves into the void in the most massive ships of all.

But their joy was short lived when they learned the Truth(tm). For CCP, the great Creator, had fully extended both of his middle fingers, and said "Fuckest thou, our slavering children, who clamor about our heels looking for handouts of free skillpoiints. Thou shalt not know the joy of shorter training times! Yea, we say unto you fuckest thou, for we are simply replacing Battleship 5 with other requirements, but thy skill path shall take largely the same amount of time. And moreover, those of you, our children, who do not already have these new requirements shall surely remain able to fly thy ships, but thou shalt not be able to train those skills again until the new requirements are met, for we shall not gift them to you. For we dislike your dickish ways. Amen."

And a great wailing was heard, children, and thus shall it ever be the way. Because people are bad.

tl:dr: These were made requirements when BS 5 was removed because - dun dun dun - CCP wants the train to a capital ship to take about as long as it takes (your skill remap OCD not withstanding).

Thus endeth the lesson.


More like CCP decided those skills should be requirements for using a Capital but didn't want to significantly change the training time, so they removed BS 5 from the requirements list since it wasn't actually adding anything except time which is what they wanted to keep the same.

Having those as requirements to fly a capital makes sense, you just don't like it, sensible or no.
Elenahina
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2017-03-24 19:16:32 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
"Mother, tell us of the old days. How it was when the Great Tieracide happened"

Back in the dim dark days of Eve (circa 2013), there was a great celebration when changes were announced to the prerequisite skills for capital ships. Gone were the days of Battleship 5! Its tyranny would no longer rule the skillpaths of so many of New Eden's finest capsuleers who felt destined to launch themselves into the void in the most massive ships of all.

But their joy was short lived when they learned the Truth(tm). For CCP, the great Creator, had fully extended both of his middle fingers, and said "Fuckest thou, our slavering children, who clamor about our heels looking for handouts of free skillpoiints. Thou shalt not know the joy of shorter training times! Yea, we say unto you fuckest thou, for we are simply replacing Battleship 5 with other requirements, but thy skill path shall take largely the same amount of time. And moreover, those of you, our children, who do not already have these new requirements shall surely remain able to fly thy ships, but thou shalt not be able to train those skills again until the new requirements are met, for we shall not gift them to you. For we dislike your dickish ways. Amen."

And a great wailing was heard, children, and thus shall it ever be the way. Because people are bad.

tl:dr: These were made requirements when BS 5 was removed because - dun dun dun - CCP wants the train to a capital ship to take about as long as it takes (your skill remap OCD not withstanding).

Thus endeth the lesson.


More like CCP decided those skills should be requirements for using a Capital but didn't want to significantly change the training time, so they removed BS 5 from the requirements list since it wasn't actually adding anything except time which is what they wanted to keep the same.

Having those as requirements to fly a capital makes sense, you just don't like it, sensible or no.


I never said I didn't like it or that I thought it made no sense. But the end result is the same - the reduced the time in one direction and added to it in the other because they want the time to be relatively what it is now. Asking to reduce the time is sort of pointless, because if CCP wanted it shorter, it already would be - they'd have shortened it four years ago when the changed the basic requirements.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno
Cade Windstalker
#17 - 2017-03-24 19:28:22 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
I never said I didn't like it or that I thought it made no sense. But the end result is the same - the reduced the time in one direction and added to it in the other because they want the time to be relatively what it is now. Asking to reduce the time is sort of pointless, because if CCP wanted it shorter, it already would be - they'd have shortened it four years ago when the changed the basic requirements.


End result is the same, presentation and the supposed reason behind the change are completely different.

If you realize the skill requirements make sense and don't have any good reason for removing them beyond "lets watch a newbie do something stupid and expensive" (which, I assure you, happens already on a daily basis) then why even suggest this in the first place?
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#18 - 2017-03-25 00:55:58 UTC
Wolfino wrote:
The point of capitals in the first place is that they can jump like that. Its half the reason people fly them is to be able to quickly project their influence.



The point of covert ops is cloaking too... but cloak skills are not required.

This is one of those things that would be fine if the requirement weren't there... but probably isn't worth a lot of effort to change I think.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#19 - 2017-03-25 00:58:50 UTC
I am glad for the comments: I will take the night and ponder/sleep on the subject and reply sometime this weekend with a better why!

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Kieron VonDeux
#20 - 2017-03-25 04:01:42 UTC
Teleportation has always been bad in games like Eve Online.

It drastically alters the time and distance factors related to maneuver in warfare that results in an unfortunately simplified system at the expense of fully realized tactics and strategy.

It would be better to remove the current system and design one that adds time back into the equation like a form of hyper / sub space travel.
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