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BREAKING NEWS - Federal Intelligence Office Begins Investigating Terro

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2017-03-17 19:36:00 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
[stuff]

Uh ... Mr. Syagrius? As you might remember I'm not actually all that attached to the State. It's got a bunch of issues, including treating people of mixed lineage (like me) as third-class citizens to the point where I feel more welcome among the Amarr. (I'll probably never be more than a servant, here, but that's more because of my beliefs than my blood.) It's cold and aggressive and hostile to intellectuals and dissidents and self-consciously more-hard-ass-than-thou on any number of topics.

I'm really fond of a lot of individual Caldari, a lot of friends and old comrades. But I don't care very much about the State.

So ... please understand when I say you're making even me want to hurt you right now.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#42 - 2017-03-17 20:34:58 UTC
Aria, you seem to forget that every culture has it's price.

For the State it's culture.
For the Federation it's politics.
For the Amarr it's religion.
For the Minmatar it's... actually, I'm not sure what gets you an in with the Matari. Family, I think.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#43 - 2017-03-17 20:50:51 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria, you seem to forget that every culture has it's price.

For the State it's culture.
For the Federation it's politics.
For the Amarr it's religion.
For the Minmatar it's... actually, I'm not sure what gets you an in with the Matari. Family, I think.


Pieter, with lots of respect, I'm not sure you've ever really experienced what it is to be a half-blood in the State.

In fairness, neither have I. I just have the remembered "facts" my predecessor left me.

Like:

"Fact": a half-blood isn't likely to be allowed to marry-- or rather, probably just won't ever be paired with anyone.

"Fact": a half-blood's prospects for advancement are implicitly limited.

"Fact": one who is of two bloodlines will be recognized by the culture of neither.

Maybe it's really just that my first memories of the State are of being a prisoner among barren metal walls, waiting to find out whether I'd be allowed to go or just put down, as an illegal clone-- a person who shouldn't have ever existed to begin with. Those are some of the first memories I ever formed.

Caldari architecture makes me feel kind of trapped.

But, I don't really like the idea of experiencing those "facts" first-hand, either. Even if a lot of it doesn't really apply to a capsuleer, who can pretty much ignore the rules if we want to....

I have a lot of affection for you and Des, and others of our kirjuun, but ... the State doesn't feel like "home," to me.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#44 - 2017-03-17 21:14:32 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I'm really fond of a lot of individual Caldari, a lot of friends and old comrades. But I don't care very much about the State.

I sorry, Ms. Jenneth, was I addressing you earlier? It sounds like your quarrel is with the State, not with me.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
So ... please understand when I say you're making even me want to hurt you right now.

Good, I am glad you are mad, goodness knows I am. Recent events have shown that the State cannot compromise with and that peace isn't possible. So why pretend. They view negotiation as weakness and conciliation as surrender.

So threaten away my dear, but as to hurting me, be careful the price.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#45 - 2017-03-17 21:14:35 UTC
It's not for everyone, Aria. Hell, I get called out for being a Liberal in a Patriot block Okusaikan, and my genetics certainly proclude me from ever being in the matching program. I don't blame you for your view on that, at all.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#46 - 2017-03-17 21:39:50 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I'm really fond of a lot of individual Caldari, a lot of friends and old comrades. But I don't care very much about the State.

I sorry, Ms. Jenneth, was I addressing you earlier? It sounds like your quarrel is with the State, not with me.


This is an open forum with a broad readership, both capsuleer and baseliner. Any experienced speaker here knows, Mr. Syagrius: the people you're speaking most to are the people you're not speaking to.

Quote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
So ... please understand when I say you're making even me want to hurt you right now.

Good, I am glad you are mad, goodness knows I am. Recent events have shown that the State cannot compromise with and that peace isn't possible. So why pretend. They view negotiation as weakness and conciliation as surrender.

So threaten away my dear, but as to hurting me, be careful the price.


And you now seem to regard me as an opponent, so let me un-twist what I said for our readers. I didn't threaten you. I said you were making even me want to hurt you.

That's not a threat. It's a warning about the effect you're having, the affect you're creating. You're provoking the Caldari and anyone with even a little bit of sympathy for them. That's not good diplomacy. It's not even clever propaganda.

It's just hate, and hatemongering.

You seem to have stopped trying to understand your opponents, and let your perceptions be ruled by sentiment. If you want an observer such as myself to see you as a person to be taken seriously in any meaningful way, you'll need to show insight. If you can't understand your opponent, you're no longer someone to be taken seriously-- just an obstacle.

If you're losing others' respect as quickly as you're losing mine, harming you would be redundant. However nice it might feel.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2017-03-17 22:29:22 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Aria, you seem to forget that every culture has it's price.

For the State it's culture.
For the Federation it's politics.
For the Amarr it's religion.
For the Minmatar it's... actually, I'm not sure what gets you an in with the Matari. Family, I think.


Pieter, with lots of respect, I'm not sure you've ever really experienced what it is to be a half-blood in the State.

In fairness, neither have I. I just have the remembered "facts" my predecessor left me.

Like:

"Fact": a half-blood isn't likely to be allowed to marry-- or rather, probably just won't ever be paired with anyone.

"Fact": a half-blood's prospects for advancement are implicitly limited.

"Fact": one who is of two bloodlines will be recognized by the culture of neither.

Maybe it's really just that my first memories of the State are of being a prisoner among barren metal walls, waiting to find out whether I'd be allowed to go or just put down, as an illegal clone-- a person who shouldn't have ever existed to begin with. Those are some of the first memories I ever formed.

Caldari architecture makes me feel kind of trapped.

But, I don't really like the idea of experiencing those "facts" first-hand, either. Even if a lot of it doesn't really apply to a capsuleer, who can pretty much ignore the rules if we want to....

I have a lot of affection for you and Des, and others of our kirjuun, but ... the State doesn't feel like "home," to me.


Well, that's true. Obviously I have absolutely no experience with being half of anything - many have said that I'm at least three of most things.

But I have never treated people according to their race - only according to their cultural affiliation. I was raised in Suvee so I know that what you're talking about exists on many levels - but it's not universal, it's a twisting of the Way, in my opinion, and it's not explicit, it's merely permitted. It ought not to be.

Sadly, the Caldari are not perfect. It's very easy for flawed humans to take a good idea and twist it into something demeaning and unfair and limiting. I hate that and I try to fight against it. I also try to distinguish between a good system and the system I am simply familiar with.

In my experience it is entirely possible to not only live your own life according to the tenets of the Way, but it is also possible to treat other people in a manner that is consistent with it. It affects my marriage. My relationship to my son. My relationship to my kirjuun - both current and former. I even try to treat my enemies according to it - because the Way is about how I live my life and not about how they live theirs.

I'm breaking the rules of the game, aren't I? I'm talking to the people I'm talking to...

James, we can be compromised with. Most of us want peace. But compromise has limits and we have too much experience with peace bought at too high a price - and almost all of that experience is with the Federation. When one is at war with the Federation, one knows what one has gotten into. When one is at peace with the Federation then the threat tends to be so much more subtle and devious. The one thing that doesn't change is the fact that you are under constant attack.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#48 - 2017-03-17 22:59:24 UTC
It's good to hear such things said, Pieter. I never really got the sense that you might look down on me for such reasons, but it's still good to have that perception confirmed, especially since that time when Veiki went on that rhetorical spree from the Dragonaur political playbook.

It's not like I ever heard anyone else echoing her, but ... I might have needed to hear that, a little, from other Caldari.

Thank you.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#49 - 2017-03-17 23:26:12 UTC
Veik has... A view that few agree with. Consider me echoing Pieter's sentiments, and honestly... I didn't know this was something of an issue for you. You'll find no judgement here. I'm a lot of things, but never actively a hypocrite.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Arrendis
TK Corp
#50 - 2017-03-18 00:04:11 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
So threaten away my dear, but as to hurting me, be careful the price.


I feel like you have absolutely no clue what Aria's talking about. She's not threatening you, she's telling you that acting like a jackwagon isn't making you any friends. It doesn't matter who you're talking to, it matters who's listening and taking note of how you're comporting yourself—and that's a lot more people than the ones you're talking to.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#51 - 2017-03-18 00:08:58 UTC
Saya Ishikari wrote:
Veik has... A view that few agree with. Consider me echoing Pieter's sentiments, and honestly... I didn't know this was something of an issue for you. You'll find no judgement here. I'm a lot of things, but never actively a hypocrite.


Thanks, Saya.

It's not really a big thing on an individual level; I never really got such an impression from anyone in PY-RE, and even Veik was only like that, when she was like that, until the wind changed. It was a face she tried on; that's all. She claimed it was her real face, but, she always did that.

... only, I guess she was a mask, herself.

Anyway, it's not like I thought it was something all Caldari had in common or anything. Just, if someone goes pushing your buttons like that, the resulting sensitivity might linger a bit.

It did for me, anyway.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#52 - 2017-03-18 00:09:32 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
You're provoking the Caldari and anyone with even a little bit of sympathy for them. That's not good diplomacy. It's not even clever propaganda. It's just hate and hate mongering

Good, I want to provoke them, as if they need an excuse. I am sorry if that the truth offends you, but truth often does those with biased opinions.

Fortunately, my aim is not to be diplomatic, clever or to sway opinion, you see propaganda where none exists.

The State and those who support its militant totalitarianism and their incessant drive to destroy the Federation are in my estimation now beyond…. reclamation. I have learned through recurrent collaboration with ‘them’ that there can be no accommodation. There is in short no truth or honor in them.
Aria Jenneth wrote:
You seem to have stopped trying to understand your opponents and let your perceptions be ruled by sentiment. If you want an observer such as myself to see you as a person to be taken seriously in any meaningful way, you'll need to show insight. If you can't understand your opponent, you're no longer someone to be taken seriously-- just an obstacle.

I thank you for your concern but you assume too much and see too little. My ‘insight’ and ‘understanding’ of my ‘opponent’ is clear. There was a time when I thought accommodation was possible. That time has passed.

The cause of the change has a name…. Sanxing.

As my opposition is plainly stated I think your objection to it, telling. Who am I an obstacle to exactly? Those whose agenda is in defending the State and the very probable occurrence of their trying to weaponize this current horror. Interesting that you should consider it so.
Aria Jenneth wrote:
If you're losing others' respect as quickly as you're losing mine, harming you would be redundant. However nice it might feel.

All things considered Ma’dame and forgive my bluntness, you can keep your respect, its value as stated is dubious at best. Anything that easy to loose was probably not worth having in the first place.
James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#53 - 2017-03-18 00:10:35 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
James, we can be compromised with. Most of us want peace.
Well, Pieter, forgive the proverbial 'you', but 'you' have a funny way of showing it. We were close to something not so long ago. Our cooperation deep and constructive, if unknown. I think you know that I wanted an 'honorable' peace. You will understand then when I say, I hope the 'cause' is worth the cost. The damage is done, the dye is cast, let us then decide the issue.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#54 - 2017-03-18 00:20:01 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:

Good, I want to provoke them, as if they need an excuse. I am sorry if that the truth offends you, but truth often does those with biased opinions.

Fortunately, my aim is not to be diplomatic, clever or to sway opinion, you see propaganda where none exists.


If you want to provoke them, then you are engaging in propaganda. Do not for one moment believe that propaganda is only internally-directed or used to sway allies to your cause. It is used to get people who are not already inside your mind to act as you want them to.

Quote:

As my opposition is plainly stated I think your objection to it, telling. Who am I an obstacle to exactly? Those whose agenda is in defending the State and the very probable occurrence of their trying to weaponize this current horror. Interesting that you should consider it so.


Actually, you're not an obstacle to them at all. If anything, you are bolstering their case. By making yourself unappealing, you make supporting your position unappealing, and by extension, opposing you becomes more appealing. Congratulations. You may not be seeking to sway opinion, but you are succeeding in doing so. You are succeeding in swaying opinion toward sympathy with the State.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#55 - 2017-03-18 00:22:13 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
The cause of the change has a name…. Sanxing.


Wait what?

Mr. Syagrius, that was (1) a capsuleer matter and, (2) by all accounts, personal.

And I thought attributing acts of the Templis Dragonaurs to the Caldari generally was kind of bad.

... okay, so much for Mr. Spymaster.

(Thanks, Ms. Arrendis. I think he's kind of past persuading at this point, though.)
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#56 - 2017-03-18 00:57:19 UTC
Disregard acts performed by self-proclaimed State loyalists when they're inconvenient. Only take them into account when they support the argument of the day.
Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#57 - 2017-03-18 01:13:54 UTC
It's personal until it's not, Aria, the same as with anything else we do. Frankly, though, everyone I heard the most about it from, with VERY few exceptions, are those with the least involvement. As in, none, beyond what they've decided must be true via whatever sources.

James is the exception, in this case. I assume he knows all he wants to. And I know more than I care to, for all the stupidity that's come my way thereafter from the peanut gallery.

What's done is done, and the opinions of the mob are worthless coin for as fickle as that market is. Those that were involved know where to find me. Those that weren't, I don't waste consideration for.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#58 - 2017-03-18 01:16:45 UTC
Quote:
Disregard acts performed by self-proclaimed [insert faction here] loyalists when they're inconvenient. Only take them into account when they support the argument of the day.


^
Basically everybody's attitude always ...

... which doesn't mean people are being disingenuous. Hardly anybody wants to take responsibility for or be identified with people who happen to partly agree with them but do crazy, awful things-- unless they don't think those things are crazy or awful.

And sometimes even then.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#59 - 2017-03-18 07:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Diana Kim
Aria Jenneth wrote:
As a note, the Federal government has a little history of attributing what the Templis Dragonaurs do to the Caldari generally. It's a big part of how the original Caldari/Gallente war got started.

Ms. Jenneth, actually the Gallente declared the war against us earlier - after the Sobaseki's sedition, and what Templis Dragonaurs did (the successful demolition of Nouvelle Rouvenor) was a result of gallente blockade of the planet.

Attributing this action to Caldari generally was Gallente's excuse not to start the war, but to commit probably the largest terror act and a war crime known in our cluster - the bombardment of Caldari Prime.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#60 - 2017-03-18 07:19:03 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Attributing this action to Caldari generally was Gallente's excuse not to start the war, but to commit probably the largest terror act and a war crime known in our cluster - the bombardment of Caldari Prime.


Caldari Prime had survivors. Starkman Prime did not.

And before you go dismissing that as 'in the past', so is the bombardment of Caldari Prime.