EVE General Discussion

I dunno Frostys. I think this is unnecessarily dramatic, and sets up a little bit of a double standard.

I mean, they introduced the New Rorqual, which pulled the carpet out from under high sec miners, and they don't seem that apologetic about it. I agree 100% that mining should be much, much more profitable in other areas. It may be a matter of time before they realize that mining rats needs to go the same way.

It was a nasty Revenant, actually.

A lot of people seem to be implying that money seems to be the end-all be-all of managing the populations of the respective security status areas. ISK is one factor, not the only factor that decides where people want to live and operate. And the simple sad fact is, there needs to be reliable and decent (but not best) income in highsec for the simple reason that it's a neutral ground where anyone can go to eek out a living. You don't have to manage diplomacy for your surroundings and the mechanics at play are a lot more basic (like not having to worry about cyno drops). On the idea of relocating level 4 agents, I would very much worry about placing even more ISK faucets squarely in areas where certain groups could congregate and expel others (which I would expect nullsec entities and major lowsec entities to do immediately).

Continuing, I think "decent but not best income" is already where highsec is at. Let me explain that point by addressing the two main things people seem to be harping on about in this thread (and often when it comes to highsec discussions).

About two years ago now, a man posted on the forums about his incursion experience. For all intents and purposes, it was the most optimal it could be. I forget the specifics, but at the time he gave numbers for all the investment for his ship and fittings, his payouts both ISK and LP, start and end times, his setup, etc. And what he found was that under the most ideal conditions, incursions don't pay out all that well. Under perfect circumstances, the real payouts were half of what everyone purports.

(I'd have bookmarked his post if I thought I'd need it to discuss later, but I'd love a refresher on that post - if anyone here happens to have that post bookmarked, I'd love to read it again)

Continuing on, I would like to be taught why people think level 4 missions are such a big deal. I run level 4 missions in my spare time and I never see these amazing money streams materialize. In many ways it seems similar to incursions - the big money people fret over comes from ISK sinks and market sales. LP item sales are a steady ISK sink to obtain the items in the first place. Sometimes the items have to be built (ISK and materials sink). Most of the time, the items need to be transported to a market hub (chance for intercept, content in space). And then the items have to be traded on the market (another ISK sink). The massive "money" that comes from this is from other players - money is shifting, not being generated as the term "faucet" suggests.

Given all the ISK sinks it provides and potential for content (both in material intercept and in mission runner intercept) I don't think it would be wise for CCP to mess with it in any serious way. That's completely aside from any speculation about player behavior and who will or won't leave the game.

Now can someone point me to those reports that say where all the money is pouring in from, in the economy? Because all I hear about is how nullsec is still king of ISK, with ISK payouts being consistent and large. Heck, someone in the "fighters getting tweaked" thread offered up an average tick of 50 million isk. That's a heck of an average tick. My BEST tick ever running level 4's was 20 mil, and that was just back to back really good missions. My average tick is half that at best. And I don't get chances for blue loot either. Odd that again, the "real" income level seems to be half of what people boast.

With all that said, I think that focusing on ISK faucets is worrying about one single attribute for a given space in a very complex game, and it is the wrong attribute for the perceived problem at hand. People migrate to their comfortable risk level and/or involvement level in the game. Right now I reside in highsec. I enjoyed my time in lowsec, but keeping up on constantly shifting politics on who was blue, who was red, who was neutral, and who was kinda neutral but you can fire back if they fire on you first, was getting tiresome. My job right now doesn't allow me that much time to keep up on things in this game. I can still do the occasional roam or op with my corp if I happen to log on at the correct time, but that's my life right now. Removing or nerfing level 4 missions won't change what I can commit to the game, it just makes it very difficult for me to replace my inevitable ship losses.

That's something that messing with ISK faucets won't change though. Some people have the discipline and time to keep up with the low/null politics and skullduggery, some don't. Anyone who hasn't yet stepped foot into lowsec isn't going to be forced, either. Remember this is a game - people do play it for fun on some level. If you take away what brings them in, they don't have an incentive to stay. Encourage them to explore, don't beat them with a bat and tell them they had it too easy, because you will not get the reaction you were hoping for.

I would make some changes to highsec though. Fix wardecs*, nerf Concord response times, get rid of faction police.

I like some of the ideas that have been tossed around for adjusting lowsec rules, because I do believe the game benefits from having diverse spaces. So, I'd be on-board with the idea of prohibiting supercaps (maybe even all caps?) and cynos in lowsec, which might encourage more roams and general PvP content in that zone. Maybe. At the very least I'd like to see that experimented with as a trial to see if it helps at all.

At the end of the day, nullsec has the majority of ISK, all the best toys, and space you can claim and expel others. That already makes it unique and enough incentive to draw people in who want that style of play and the rewards it brings. Highsec is more stable and reliable. We should focus on what we want lowsec to be and really specialize it to make it shine.

Do you mean making it NPC Sov, or Player Sov?

No caps/bubbles will in no way stop NS from crushing LS.
Nor will "LS swarms".
LS has a tiny population/resource base/geography compared to their NS neighbors.
NS wont even break a sweat in the process.

You will be evicted, blued or rented, almost overnight in order for said NS neighbors to move their borders/control right up against HS. They dont care about LS resources, only geography. Controlling the LS corridors makes their transfer of material between NS and HS safer.

The game doesn't teach someone how to hunt down another player ship, which leads to the observation that the game doesn't teach someone how to avoid being hunted down. ie PVP doesn't start ongrid, it only ends there, and its a major flaw that the PVE doesn't have enough of the similar elements.

What always happens with this debate, is that it gets utterly derailed by the self-entitled that want to run missions 'as is' even though its an utter cancer on new players (for ****s sake some of those missions are 14 years old). Whilst you can be anything, I think people join to be privateers, or space heros or space villains and that the game doesn't actually lead them there, and then lots of people accept the game as "slow".

IMO there could be vastly more lowsec, vastly less highsec, and the purpose of highsec could easily be to house market hubs and allow people to earn replacement cruisers (stealthy or otherwise) and to get missions into lowsec (since they have escalations, they have the mechanisms for this), for which stealthy cruisers generally succeed at, given that the hunting tools are also the survival tools, they are just as good at either purpose.

That entire highsec mission running game is so old its boob job has sagged.

As far as mining goes, they should change the name exhumer to, exhumed. The game avorion has a salvage mechanic that is far closer to the mark - ie if one goes to a scrapyard in avorion, aiming the bloody salvagers by observing the wreck has a huge impact on output. The netflix model of mining has to go.

IMO lowsec is the key to a bringing this game out of 2005, and far more radical solutions are actually required than anyone is actually proposing here.

Are we just talking Jump Freighters and Supercapitals - or ALL capitals (including carriers, dreadnoughts and freighters). And yes, asset recovery is a problem - so eliminate asset recovery from NS to LS (sorry, it's toast). As for supercapitals already there - give them a 30-day "get out of low-sec free" card. After that they cannot use the gates and they're stuck in that system. One other problem that we didn't touch on is LS supercapital production with Sotiyos (not sure how prevalent this is).

and just a few post above you have the audacity to gut lowsec yourself, well ..|.. !!!

Make system security scale with who is winning in FW, so Caldari lowsec/FW system captured by us will lower the security of Caldari hisec systems near it. This makes useless carebears like Arthur, defend his hisec and work.

One man mach and one man carrier versus 10 to 40 man fleet.

Get real.

On the topic more ppl need to stream in low sec from high sec in order for that to happen i think changes need to be made so low sec systems that borderline high systems and fastest routes linking high sectors(thru low sec) should be Border zones.

Border zones no capitals strong NPC presence at gates mostly (will respond as Concord but without dev hacks thru whole system )to prevent gate camping easy mode let baby seals in without immediately clubbing em to death

then start seeding minerals and missions that gonna take you to low can drop good stuff

than make incursions that are dipping in low sec HQ mostly but VG systems too

Also mix advance AI into this hard mining fleets pirate fleets seekers sleepers name it all good stuff make fuss in around there,

ppl should come for shiny stay for kicks.

what do you mean "LS doesnt require caps"? why do you feel caps and cyno's dont belong in lowsec?

hey mofo, are you not aware that citadels exist in LS as well?

about cynos, so bombers and blops are not allowed too?