Intergalactic Summit

Oh, that.

Please feel free to resume. You might have noticed, I like satire.

Or, you could, you know, show me where I'm making mistakes. Historically I've been under the impression that you actually agreed with most of my conclusions-- just, that you feel that's how your god wants humans to live, even if it means suffering the same kind of turmoil and collapse the Takmahl did.






I have no memory of that time, of course, Miz, but I think Ms. Leshrac is from that tradition?

Don't romanticise the past.

They were always represented by lunatics and clowns.

pft.

You're right, of course, now that I'm giving it some thought. In retrospect, my question from earlier was obviously a bit arrogant. I'd been thinking about the conversation as though it existed in isolation, and not, as would be the case in a closed off forum with a only a few users and public viewership, a continuation of one that's been repeated in some form or another a myriad of times. I know the feeling of discussing a matter over and over and over again, until it's become less an arguement and more of a ritual, so it shouldn't have surprised me that you'd want to keep your words blunt.

Quite funny, really. I accused you of a visceral response, but in reality, my question, rooted in my quick, gut-driven curiosity of your character, was the real one, while your original remark was more thought out. You must get people like me often, jumping into these old battles and acting like they just begun. I'll try to be less tedious in the future.

I did appreciate that explanation, though, so thank you. Serious question: Have you ever thought of writing a book? I think that's what most people do, when they feel like their ideas have grown big enough and been sharpened enough to properly cave someones head in.



You're a lot less partisan than I, Ms. Jenneth, or perhaps sentiment on the matter has warped your perspective. Or maybe, a lack of it my own?

But to bluntly speak my own mind, I think the Empire is a civilization that is very effective at preserving itself and it's ideology. However - without attempting any overtures of morality - I can't say it's actions, or the nature of it's mechanisms, paint me a picture of one based around compassion for mankinds suffering. It's a factor, for certain. But I think it's a false equivalency you're making: There are many reasons for a society's makers to want "social longevity and stability" that are distinctly not that, while on the other hand, it's hard to find another explanation for making "All human life is precious and should be protected" a cardinal virtue.

I'll consent, though, that it's quite good at teaching people to limit their ambitions.

Uh ... could be either, really. Both?

A little explanation might help. I'm (as you probably already guessed) not Amarr at all; I'm an Achur, Shuijing ("Crystal") sect. However, I'm a sworn retainer to Praefecta Lunarisse Daphiti, who very much is Amarr. I don't feel all that much attachment to the Empire, directly. It's my home, though, so some sentiment's probably inevitable. On the other hand, my heathen faith limits me to a servant's rank, and there are definitely things here I have some trouble with even if I understand the theoretical reasons for them.

One thing that's definitely true is that I have mostly a Caldari cultural view of the Federation. I'm not especially loyal to the State, either: I don't remember anything that happened to me more than about two years ago, which maybe kind of limits my ability to feel strong sentiment about home and hearth, which is a little important to the Caldari generally. However, I do still kind of have the typical Caldari reaction to the idea of democracy, which is basically disbelief.

"How exactly do you expect to sustainably run a country through rule-by-mob? Elites are elite for a reason!"




Well-- actually, I think the Amarr (unlike the Caldari) actually do hold the idea that "All human life is precious and should be protected" ... by being converted or conquered and added to the Empire. Once all of humanity is safely under the rule of the Kingdom of God in This World, we can get down seriously to mitigating the suffering that the process might, itself, have caused.

(I did say I don't agree with them about everything, right? Golden ships in the sky over Achura is literally a nightmare I have had, even if I can't remember what it was like living there.)

(Fortunately, from my point of view, the Amarr have hit a stumbling block or four in conquering humanity, and the remainder of the Reclaiming might have to be carried out peacefully, by persuasion. That, I have more trouble objecting to.)

The accusation that power structures are more interested in maintaining their own power than in helping people is a permanent one common to pretty much every civilization and culture. It's a fair question, but kind of a hard one to answer since it boils down to questioning leaders' motives more than their actions. Even the most benevolent ruler probably wants to stay in charge so they can keep being benevolent.

The Federation seems to approach this by switching out its rulership on a really regular basis according to popular will. The Empire takes the opposite approach: it maintains institutions arranged not so much to respond to individual merit (that, in principle, is the Caldari system) or popular sentiment as to identify and promote families that serve as reliable sources of merit over generations. Upward mobility is very slow, and downward can be very fast-- a single corrupt member is taken as a warning about the whole family, and Holders can end up slaves for that reason alone. (Just ask Sinjin Mokk. Expect to get a bunch of anti-Amarr rhetoric to go with the story, though; he's a little bitter.)

The thing that really interests me about the Amarr is the way the Empire's set up to simultaneously encourage Amarrian virtue (piety, generosity, obedience, etc.) and harness more questionable, but inevitable, human traits (greed, ambition, etc.) to constructive ends. It doesn't work perfectly (if it did, the Matari would all be Ammatar and there'd be no Sani Sabik), but its longevity isn't just the result of a lot of self-interested nobles managing to cling to power by their fingernails for century after century.

Seriously, why does anybody think that "religious indoctrination," "systematic oppression," "entrenched power," and "sometimes bad people win" are adequate explanation for four thousand years? The kinds of ills persistent, obvious injustice cause are more than unpleasant. They're destabilizing, and the timeline for stuff like that to do its work is not all that blasted long.

"The free people of the stars."

... well ... the current legal regime surrounding capsuleers does sort of set us up as a bunch of tiny nation-states in pursuit of some policy that only really makes sense if you assume something other than the four empires is at work. (Jove apprenticeship, maybe?) It's really strange, and it makes each capsuleer basically a petty autocrat. So if being a tiny dictator is your impression of being "free," Ms. Blackwind, you might have a point. Only, without shared order, infrastructure tends to degrade, and we're still a little dependent on the empires for that even if it sometimes seems like Upwell, et al, are trying to nudge us out of the nest.

A collapse of our host infrastructure would probably ... not be good.

Not so much shoehorn, but an observation. One that causes discussion. As I said in the beginning I was seeking clarification and I think I got it.

I am even certain that it was brought up before. Not that it is all that important.

I am also humble enough to know that I am nowhere in the league of Revan or Silas. Both had built remarkable legacies. Something to be envied.

I have serve as apprentice to some and served long enough to know the difference what is from Apocrypha and the Scriptures.

Yes there are raving cultist. Personalities who seem to think that have be sparked by the Divine to truly represent that Power.

I am Sani Sabik. Nor do I intend to replace those before me.

I do however intend to survive and endure as true Sani Sabik do.

You do know that many independent groups have a history of operating for years in WH and 0.0 space without relying much at highsec infrastructure, even before Upwell became a thing. Look at Alexylva Paradox and the Origin colony project, for example, and that's the most advertised one.

Regarding the host infrastructure, you seem to confuse the collapse of CONCORD and the imperial government with some extinction level cataclysm that terminates all available facilities belonging to all baseliner factions. Well, this is actually possible, but only while there is Empire-controlled CONCORD, and it decides one day to simply pull the plug on the capsuleer project.

Otherwise, even if highsec, CONCORD and central governments are no longer, the markets collapse and Jita becomes nullsec overnight, the capsuleer numbers might plummet, yes, those who have the will to adapt and survive, will do so. Not as convenient as it is now for all those who are used to be spoonfed free ISK? Sure.

But fun as hell.

You're quite a romantic, Ms. Jenneth, if you'll forgive the non-sequitur. It's a beautiful trait, even if it's one I've never really shared. You must make a lot of good friends.

I'll abstain from picking apart your post in full, though I'll comment that I never said the Empire was evil, or even a society that (at least often) forcefully indoctrinates it's people. In fact, I actually think the Empire is a fantastically designed system for many of the same reasons that you yourself have listed. The Amarrian religion itself is likely the most spectacular project of literary and political art that remains in the world today: Not only does it serve to to fulfill the underclasses more basic spiritual needs, as well as reliably encourage it's leaders to take it upon themselves to accommodate their human ones (panem et circenses, as they'd say over there), it's also proven itself extremely adaptable and capable of driving progress rather than impeding it, a feat that almost all authoritarian religions stumble on.

It's interesting that you imagine I would think the Empire is malicious, broken, or just a device to keep it's leaders in positions of comfortable power, just because I don't think it's built on the same root as the Federation.

To be clear: we're talking about "foundations" here, not what the Empire does day to day, right? Not the symptoms, but the virus, the truth (or the lie) at the heart itself. Now, with that in mind, I'd like you to think about the early history of the Empire, with as rational and calculated a mindset as you can muster.

Can you really tell me it was built with compassion for all mankind in mind, even then? The society, the faith in it's primeval form, all of it?

I think you'd find it hard to say the Federation wasn't. They were basically screaming it at the time; A desire to atone for past wrongs, to make a rejection of that pain something fundamental. It was the kind of almost idiotic purity of intent that can only be born on a mountain of ones errors.

Are they the same? And if not, what truth was there, in those early years?

g morion your the smartest not responding to your own comments person ever
I almost don't feel ********.

Having a conversation with yourself is stupid.