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Planet V Trade

Author
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#41 - 2017-03-13 02:13:44 UTC
Well I know EVE is a bit like this somewhat because pew pew is so closely tied to economic operations, and with that comes the whole epeen stuff, but business is business.

I don't mind who's making how much off broker fees as long as I have a secure/reliable trading platform with reasonable fees. I use PH backed fortizar for much of my trades in the Forge, and couldn't care less what amount of ISK they are raking in off people like me, because as far as I am concerned, when I look at my wallet and trades, the fee is acceptable to me and I'm doing well enough.

I don't buy any speeches on ideals or free market or some kind of principles or whatever. And I don't get butt hurt about how much someone is making off their operations - it's their business, if they doing well then good for them.

It is perfectly normal that people do things to make money/ISK, both IRL and in-game. There is absolutely nothing evil about wanting to make ISK(money) and doing what you can to maximise your profit. It is normal to charge for service and customers will either pay for it or go somewhere else depending on how they see your offer & its value for them.

I would NOT move to a different hub/fortizar market to 'support free market' or out of bitterness to any big entity, or because I don't want my ISK to go to whoever, or out of any pseudo philosophical principles - actually THAT is pretty opposite of free market isn't it?

I would actually be weary of markets that charge the minimum amount or none, because I may doubt their sustainability. I don't look for free/cheapest stuff around the universe. I'm happy to pay for something that is stable and reliable and have big enough force to back it up/defend it when sh1t his the fan.

So that's my 2 cents - for people like me, the biggest incentives to move to 'your' citadel would be assurance that you have the power/ISK/diplomatic relations to keep your structure running safely/reliably. I would be happy to be charged to use your service/platform where you use your income to strengthen the platform I'm using. I would prefer that than to save pennies with cheap broker fees but having to move around & set up new orders all the time as your citadels get re-inforced all the time.

In other words - your citadel has to be competitive/attractive on its own merit, as a business platform defended with sufficient force, or through some reliable diplomatic arrangements tied with ISK. Free market ideals or we are the good guys type of talks just don't cut it.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2017-03-13 02:26:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Karin Yang
Toobo wrote:
I don't mind who's making how much off broker fees as long as I have a secure/reliable trading platform with reasonable fees. I use PH backed fortizar for much of my trades in the Forge, and couldn't care less what amount of ISK they are raking in off people like me, because as far as I am concerned, when I look at my wallet and trades, the fee is acceptable to me and I'm doing well enough.

You mentioned reasonable fees. PH monopolized market is impossible to be at reasonable rate. The only reason they're still at 0.1% is that there's still competition. But I agree with your conclusion. Not many people care about long term outcome.
Jarr Kaleb
#43 - 2017-03-13 06:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarr Kaleb
Toobo wrote:
So that's my 2 cents - for people like me, the biggest incentives to move to 'your' citadel would be assurance that you have the power/ISK/diplomatic relations to keep your structure running safely/reliably.
All Upwell structures are safe because of Asset Safety, you will not lose any items in high-sec if a structure is destroyed.

You said you are using PH backed fortizar... is it ICY's trade hub? Don't you know that he is unanchoring his hub in Ashab, which currently is the biggest player-owned trade hub in Domain? As he himself said it's because he was unable to reach a deal with the people attacking the trade hub. As for The Forge, it is known that PH and ICY have "short-time agreement". What will happen if they are unable "to reach an agreement" in the future?

Even NETC, C4K or any other groups who seem to be reliable and\or have some backing, they all can disappear tomorrow. EvE community already seen how big projects\alliances crumble.

Imo if you're too concerned about safety and reliability you should probably just use Jita 4-4, it is the most safe and reliable trade hub out there.
William Ormono
Reason Will Prevail
#44 - 2017-03-13 17:26:41 UTC
As a person who is a new trader (regional trading mostly) and who is not yet very good at the craft of trading, here is my perspective:

Selling at a high profit margin is great, but it isn't everything. Volume is also a big thing to consider. I'd rather sell 100 things over a period of time and make 10 ISK per sale then sell 1 thing over that same period of time and make 100 ISK on that sale.

The historical trading hub stations (e.g. Jita, Dodixie, Amarr, Hek) range from very well established to reasonably well established and offer large customer bases. Granted, they come with a 2% broker fee, but that doesn't effect me at this stage of my carrier. I only trade in items that can be sold for at least 15% more than what I buy them at, so although I might not be maximizing the profit per unit sold, I am still making a profit. The trade hubs allow me to trade in larger volume, which typically means I can make enough ISK to keep me happy(ish).

Citadels don't seem to offer those same customer bases. Offering a broker rate of 0.1% just isn't very attractive if I'm losing the majority of my customers. Until people start flocking to key citadels the way they currently flock to station trade hubs, I don't think the broker rate savings will matter very much to me.

Also, the way I read the OP and some follow up posts made by others, it sound like the future of trade in Eve is at stake because the null guys will keep extorting higher and higher values from citadel owners, requiring that the owners raise brokerage rates so they have enough ISK to pay off their extortionists and that this process will break the trading system. That view seems a little too extreme for me - Worst case scenario, citadel brokerage fees will increase to the same level as NPC Stations. If they ever get as expensive as NPC stations, people will stop using them. NPC stations already have the advantage of being more established and don't have to worry about citadel security (reinforcing and all that business). The ONLY advantage I see to citadel trading is the lower brokerage rate.

Worse case scenario: PH is able to extort every single citadel owner in HS and as a result, every single citadel owner has to raise their brokerage rates to be in line with Station brokerage rates.

If this "Worse Case" occurs, it effectively means we will have the same brokerage fee's (+/- 2%) that existed in the game for the ten or so years before citadels were introduced and that there will be a lot of useless citadels out there.

This doesn't seem to be a very dire situation from where I'm standing. But I am admittedly new and not a very good trader, so maybe I'm missing the point.
Jarr Kaleb
#45 - 2017-03-14 16:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarr Kaleb
William Ormono wrote:
The ONLY advantage I see to citadel trading is the lower brokerage rate.
Citadels have more than one advantage over NPC stations. The one I like the most (besides fees) is that anyone can easily dock\undock with billions in cargo without worrying about gankers and their scouts.
Cor'El Dahken
Unicorn Fatale
#46 - 2017-03-14 16:42:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cor'El Dahken
Jarr Kaleb wrote:
William Ormono wrote:
The ONLY advantage I see to citadel trading is the lower brokerage rate.
Citadels have more than one advantage over NPC stations. The one I like the most (besides fees) is that anyone can easily dock\undock with billions in cargo without worrying about gankers and their scouts.



As a newish trader in eve myself. I am of the opinion that the more items that get 'destroyed' by gankers the better for me. As demand goes up and so follows price.
Put a decent collateral on your hauler contracts, tank your hauling ships properly. Then ganking shouldn't be an issue.

As for brokers fees. The higher broker fees the more people get pushed out of the market because they can't make decent profits anymore. Again, a win for me as a trader.

If you train the skills and grind the rep why shouldn't you get rewarded with decent fees at trade hubs. Why should some new alpha fly in and make just as much profit as you who have 'wasted' months training and grinding.

Don't get me wrong I have enjoyed the profits of using free ports immensely, but as someone who has spent the time training the skills and is starting to grind what rep I need to lower fees, I have no problem whatsoever with high fees in player owned citadels.

If you want a Freeport go and build one for yourself and don't open it up to anyone. See how many people are desperate for low fees when it costs them that much capital.
William Ormono
Reason Will Prevail
#47 - 2017-03-14 17:59:25 UTC  |  Edited by: William Ormono
Jarr Kaleb wrote:
Citadels have more than one advantage over NPC stations. The one I like the most (besides fees) is that anyone can easily dock\undock with billions in cargo without worrying about gankers and their scouts.


So again, I'm kinda new to this, but I have insta-dock and insta-undock bookmarks in all the major trade hubs, so this doesn't seem like an advantage to me. I have never even once been locked, never mind being shot or destroyed when docking or undocking in Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek or Rens.

Also, I was focusing on citadel advantages/disadvantages as they apply to a traders. Safe docking/undocking is more of a hauler issue than a trader's issue IMO.

You say there are more than one advantage to citadels over stations. Besides cheaper broker rates and safer docking/undocking what other advantages can I get from selling in a citadel?
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2017-03-14 20:51:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tipa Riot
William Ormono wrote:

selling in a citadel?

Maybe you didn't get it, but selling is not the main point here. Beside pilot services, only few actually sell stuff in public highsec citadels. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.

Jarr Kaleb
#49 - 2017-03-15 11:39:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Jarr Kaleb
William Ormono wrote:
So again, I'm kinda new to this, but I have insta-dock and insta-undock bookmarks in all the major trade hubs, so this doesn't seem like an advantage to me. I have never even once been locked, never mind being shot or destroyed when docking or undocking in Jita, Amarr, Dodixie, Hek or Rens.

Also, I was focusing on citadel advantages/disadvantages as they apply to a traders. Safe docking/undocking is more of a hauler issue than a trader's issue IMO.

You say there are more than one advantage to citadels over stations. Besides cheaper broker rates and safer docking/undocking what other advantages can I get from selling in a citadel?


Insta-undock bookmarks will help you avoid only inexperienced gankers. Experienced gankers\ganking groups usually have trained alt up with already deployed probes that can cover all of your insta-undock bookmarks no matter the distance from a station. When your ship land on a bookmark, their scouting\bumping ship lands on you with very little time difference.

As for the advantages... there aren't many advantages for a station trader who is "flipping plexes all day everyday" but if you're trading between stations\regions (maybe do some manufacturing as well) and haul your items yourself, the advantages besides cheaper broker rates are safer docking\undocking, citadel's delivery system, free offices and jump clones along with instant clones swapping (eg. nomads>ascendancy). It all sums up letting you to save quite a bit of time and money.
Love Turtle
Asteroid Belt Refining
#50 - 2017-03-15 11:58:23 UTC
Thank you, Jarr Kaleb. It is always helpful to receive advice on transport and trade. Hisec ganks happen quicker than the blink of an angel's glance. We cannot be complacent.

I am excited to see that Planet V Trade now has hubs in both Perimeter and Ashab. Go, Go,Go. It seems that, somehow, in spite of the concerted efforts of Pandemic Horde to monopolize trade and raise fees, the future of free trade has a glimmer of hope.

I will trade only in Planet V Trade hubs.

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#51 - 2017-03-15 14:54:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Toobo
EDIT: TL/DR in advance - what I said below was off the tone of the OP, where the whole thing was framed in some sort of ideological conflicts or whatever.

Karin Yang wrote:

You mentioned reasonable fees. PH monopolized market is impossible to be at reasonable rate. The only reason they're still at 0.1% is that there's still competition. But I agree with your conclusion. Not many people care about long term outcome.


I do not believe that such a monopoly can happen, even with the size of PH. If they truly monopolised, then yeah sure, theoretically they can call any price. But I just don't see that as realistic, so I see them as being probably powerful enough for long time yet still having some competition/incentives to be 'reasonable' with rates.

Jarr Kaleb wrote:

Imo if you're too concerned about safety and reliability you should probably just use Jita 4-4, it is the most safe and reliable trade hub out there.


thanks, but I am familiar with asset safety mechanics. Maybe I phrased it wrong - I do not worry about 'safety' of my 'assets' in such hubs, it's more about annoyance of orders getting cancelled & needing to be re-set up and such. For me personally this is annoying enough that I'm willing to pay a small fee to avoid it if I can, but not a real big enough loss to bear with Jita broker fee.

I do have some orders that I run from Jita 4-4 though, for :reasons:

The main point of what i said was that I do not mind whoever makes ISKies, as long as it serves my purpose and put me in the profit zone, be it PH or any other entity, as you point out they all come and go and join and break up at some point. I just sense that some people feel bitter when someone else/some entity makes lots of ISK, whereas I'm always of the opinion that if something is worth to me at what I consider reasonable price I don't mind paying for it.

It's kinda hard to explain because I'm mixing sentiments with business, but some people just really really hate paying anything more than the minimum (also IRL), and cry it's a rip off when something is charged more than they feel it should be. It's those sentiments that I do not empathise with. Did I see the price tag? Did I want it? Did I pay for it? Then that's the end of the story. It doesn't matter if the same product was being sold at 10% the price in the next shop or if the same product was being sold by a charity that donates money to a noble cause or if the shop I bought it from was sponsoring some evil organisations whatever.

I have never ever boycotted a product from a particular company IRL for any ethical/political/philosophical/ideal reasons and I never will, and that probably carries over to my in game attitude.

Like, really simple - i saw the price, acknowledged, and paid, no need for drama & talk of ideals & principles what so ever.

Just what I think. :p

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Love Turtle
Asteroid Belt Refining
#52 - 2017-03-15 16:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Love Turtle
Quote:
I do not believe that such a monopoly can happen, even with the size of PH. If they truly monopolised, then yeah sure, theoretically they can call any price. But I just don't see that as realistic, so I see them as being probably powerful enough for long time yet still having some competition/incentives to be 'reasonable' with rates.

Wow. I am struggling with this. I trade in Jita/Perimeter almost every day. I have for many years. I tried trading in the Pandemic Horde hubs; in the IChooseYou hub and now the scam Horde PEAT'S REBEL HUB. All of them have raised their broker fees when the Planet V Trade hub was destroyed.

Do you not realize why broker fees remain low in the region? Do you think the fees will remain at 0.0%/0.1% if Planet V Trade is forced out?

If you are willing to pay 2% instead of 0.0%/0.1%, then there is no explaining. It is not complex. Only Planet V Trade offers hope. The future of New Eden is dictated by the meta-game. You can understand it and take a position, or you can watch the troops march down the street and wave.

I know what I need to do. Planet V Trade forever.
Toobo
Project Fruit House
#53 - 2017-03-15 17:01:04 UTC
Love Turtle wrote:
Quote:
I do not believe that such a monopoly can happen, even with the size of PH. If they truly monopolised, then yeah sure, theoretically they can call any price. But I just don't see that as realistic, so I see them as being probably powerful enough for long time yet still having some competition/incentives to be 'reasonable' with rates.

Wow. I am struggling with this. I trade in Jita/Perimeter almost every day. I have for many years. I tried trading in the Pandemic Horde hubs; in the IChooseYou hub and now the scam Horde PEAT'S REBEL HUB. All of them have raised their broker fees when the Planet V Trade hub was destroyed.

Do you not realize why broker fees remain low in the region? Do you think the fees will remain at 0.0%/0.1% if Planet V Trade is forced out?

If you are willing to pay 2% instead of 0.0%/0.1%, then there is no explaining. It is not complex. Only Planet V Trade offers hope. The future of New Eden is dictated by the meta-game. You can understand it and take a position, or you can watch the troops march down the street and wave.

I know what I need to do. Planet V Trade forever.


There is a very definite ceiling on how high this can go - which is 2% minus individual skill and standing bonus for the NPC stations in Jita, unless CCP decides to remove all NPC stations market functionality.

Whatever any 'evil dudes' charge you that is less than NPC broker fee is a 'bonus' for you, it's a service and a benefit they offer, it increases your profit amount in your trading. Whatever they charge above NPC broker fee is an option you are never forced to use.

So here is the thing, look

1. Whoever monopolise or bully others or whatever will still set their broker fee to be lower than NPC broker fee, which means you still save some cost in setting up orders if you use their structures instead of NPC stations, so you ARE getting benefit from it, so it makes sense that you need to cough up the ISK for the benefit you are getting

2. If the broker fee ever goes above NPC fee, you are not forced to use those player owned fortizars and enjoy your 'cheaper' broker fee at jita trading

Whichever way you look at it they are offering (whoever they may be) cheaper option than what NPC station offers. Yeah how dare they make money while letting you trade with cheaper cost, right? How dare they MAKE PASSIVE ISK OFF ME while offering me discount on broker fees compared to NPCs?

That's the funny thing I'm pointing out here. When someone plants a citadel and run it and defends it and offers lower broker fee than NPC options, they are offering you a service and the money they make is what they earn for what they can offer.

Personally I would be happy to see the end of 0.0 or 0.1% broker fees. It doesn't help me much in the big picture. I would actually be making more ISK if the player owned market hubs had much higher broker fee as normally recognised standard, preferably over 1%, possibly up to 1.5%.

The impact such broker fees would have will benefit me greatly, so yes, I guess I also do have some individual agenda. But beside my own agenda, what I said earlier stands. They charge you less than NPC, which saves you cost, and if they charge more, no one's forcing you to use it.

And what's also funny is that the broker fee is something you would have paid anyway, it's a cost you cannot avoid without citadel mechanism - it is the ISK that would have gone to NPC and leave your hands, now it's only going to some other players - why be so bitter and don't want to give ISK to other real human players who run such structures while happily waste them to the NPCs. It's like 'I rather burn money than give it to someone else' kinda mindset when I look at it.

So well, again, that's what I think. I can accept people have different opinions, it's just that I cannot empathise with it at all.









Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#54 - 2017-03-15 17:06:50 UTC
Love Turtle wrote:
The future of New Eden is dictated by the meta-game. You can understand it and take a position, or you can watch the troops march down the street and wave.

I know what I need to do. Planet V Trade forever.


Sorry forgot to address this particular part in my last post.

I think I understand what's going on, and I like it. People want different things right? I like the changes that came and I like the way this is going. Just because someone sees the same thing you hate and says he likes it, it doesn't mean he doesn't understand it. He just likes different things.

1. I see X
2. I hate it
3. Person A sees X
4. He likes it
5. Person A doesn't understand X because if he understood what X is then he MUST hate it

This is tragic way of thinking. Absolutely tragic. In my view obviously. You may like it. ;)

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Toobo
Project Fruit House
#55 - 2017-03-15 17:17:30 UTC
I feel like rambling, so I'll just add another one (probably not good idea) and call it a night.

You remember IWI, well that got shut down. Sad. For me.

But oh well, from some players perspective, this was a 'good thing for the game'. because IWI was making so much ISK 'out of the game using out of the game mechanics that could not be attacked using in game methods, such as space ships pew pew'.

i.e. IWI was spinning and racking up so much ISK without every being in danger of losing their ISK by any in-game assault, I mean, you couldn't bring space ships to shoot at their slot machines on their website, duh.

Now there are player markets. You can make obscene amount of what some people would see as 'passive ISK' by being big enough to own and operate a market hub with enough traffic. But it does not matter if a Perimeter fortizar owner makes a 3 trillions a month from broker fees or some small time dude makes a few bil a month from some backwater system hubs.

The point is that these structures are in space, and they can be attacked. They may be owned and defended by the most powerful entity or with the biggest number of players or backed by the richest players or whatever, but the game mechanic is absolutely there for you to try to attack it and bring it down.

So it is in-game, built by materials gathered in space, using the NPC seeded and player researched BPOs, and it is in-space and it is destructible.

I think this is the point where people say 'working as intended' and move on.

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Allsales Final
Stars in No Sky
#56 - 2017-03-15 17:20:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Allsales Final
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Toobo
Project Fruit House
#57 - 2017-03-15 17:55:52 UTC
Allsales Final wrote:
Toobo wrote:

This is tragic way of thinking. Absolutely tragic. In my view obviously. You may like it. ;)

I don't know where to begin; in part, because you use so many words to say something so simple:

You want higher broker fees?

Well, I don't. I think most people don't. Maybe I am missing something. Send the isk to me, not the sink, then.

Very odd.


To put it in context,

The OP and Love Turtle have both pitched their points in political/ideological terms, liberally spraying words loaded with values and ideals, as if highsec population should cooperate under the banner of free market and some sort of moral justice to fight against the bigger force, whatever.

I just pointed out it's just business. No moral speech needed.

As for me wanting higher broker fees, it's just that not everyone operates in the same ways. There are people and operations that will benefit and make more ISK from higher broker fee market standard. If you were doing those you too would wish that broker fees would be higher, at least if you wanted to make more ISK.

Cheaper broker fee = cheaper 'cost' for me, bigger profit for me is just one common example - it's not wrong but it's not the only way business works and it's certainly looking at things from very limited perspective of minimising the cost.

The cost can increase but if that helps to create bigger profit where the new profit minus increased broker fee is bigger then obviously that makes more ISK. :p

Cheers Love! The cavalry's here!

Allsales Final
Stars in No Sky
#58 - 2017-03-15 18:30:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Allsales Final
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Love Turtle
Asteroid Belt Refining
#59 - 2017-03-15 18:32:22 UTC
I don't want to get involved with the bickering, so please leave me out of it.

Sometimes those who speak the most have other agendas. Enough said.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2017-03-15 18:41:29 UTC
The ideal situation here is, that everyone else pays high fees (to me) except myself and friends. P

With ingame perspective, I believe we see the beginning of the sovereignty war about empire space which was forced on us by CCP introducing citadels. Difficult to stay neutral unless you strictly use NPC stations only. Hence pick your side in this war.

I'm my own NPC alt.