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War decs : not achieving objectives

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Lucas Lucias
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#101 - 2017-02-28 16:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Lucias
Akane Togenada wrote:
As a member of a Corp that does not dock up when war decced but also won´t make an effort to fight back any system that would force a defender to participate in fleet PvP to not suffer negative consequences would be horrible.

If it's possible to monitor the only thing a defending corp should have to do in such a system is to undock their ships and play the game. If this means moving out of high-sec and into low, null or wormhole space to get away from the attackers then that to me seems equally 'active' as to create fleets to fight back.


I really like the setup of your alliance, when I had some of your people in Stain I tried to avoid killing your people, but every so often had to, so as to join in. But you are absolutely right, this fake forced fights are not going to shake my boat either. And this is why hisec is such a vapid place. You could put up a citadel or an ES, but they are so weak and useless in hisec that there is no point. I did build up a large asset base in hisec, but it is just one hell of a grind because CCP and certain players decided that they would force you out of hisec to earn ISK and yet all it did was make hisec even more boring.

To be blunt most war dec entities are as boring as hell, I had one now dead merc alliance tell me that he saw my alliance had fought back which is why he war decked my alliance and when I pointed out that my players were not even in his TZ he called me a loser, which was funny as hell, because a few posts later he was complaining about the amount of ISK he spent on war decs with no kills, I mean seriously, that is the type of stupidity you see from war deckers in hisec.

These artificial forced to defend something type ideas suck, I suggested an OS which gave watch list type data for a constellation that were easy to take down so the defender had something to attack that meant something but the boo hoo boyz hated the idea, because effort...

This game has too many people who just want easy catches and slick no issue kills for epeen.
Elsia Browne
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2017-02-28 20:19:35 UTC
Wow, lots of reading.

For those that believe that War decs could use some tweaking, yes everything could use a little tweaking. However, it needs to be well thought out and have the potential future in mind when coming up the solutions used to tweak the system.

For those that believe War decs are functioning as intended. Maybe as you and the others in your group intend them to function. CCP is aware of the problem and my guess they are working though potential solutions and reading the ideas that seem both reasonable and possible to implement.

Two things to consider;

1.) CCP wants conflict in the game
2.) CCP wants to implement as few mechanics as possible that hinder the ideals of sandbox game play.

So the thought of increasing or decreasing the actions and consequences imposed by NPCs in the game such as Concord will never happen. They have their balance there they are happy with it, or they would have continued to play with it through several patches until the balance was reached.

The thought of increasing or decreased war dec costs is on the table being that they have fiddled with it multiple times in the past and still seem to not like where it is at currently.

CCP has stated that they would like war decs to be a usable mechanic in Null sec however they haven't come to a solution that fits with the numbered statements above.

In the end it is what CCP decides to do with the game. They are fully aware of the stats and more than likely have it some where in the planning stages to alot dev team time to the issue however it isn't exactly on their high priority list yet due to it not effecting their bottom line.

This is what it is, if you want it to change. Well you play a game that relies heavily on economic models. Draw up a model that could effect CCP's money and you will have a way to control CCP.

CCP is doing it to themselves by the way. I'm sure they have looked at the numbers multiple times. The player retention for EVE isn't exactly the greatest, nor is player account creation. This whole Alpha Clone, Omega Clone thing was an attempt to fix that. FYI, when a game starts to go free to play when it was previously a subscription based game its on its last leg.
Alderson Point
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2017-02-28 21:56:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alderson Point
Elsia Browne wrote:
Wow, lots of reading.

For those that believe that War decs could use some tweaking, yes everything could use a little tweaking. However, it needs to be well thought out and have the potential future in mind when coming up the solutions used to tweak the system.

For those that believe War decs are functioning as intended. Maybe as you and the others in your group intend them to function. CCP is aware of the problem and my guess they are working though potential solutions and reading the ideas that seem both reasonable and possible to implement.

Two things to consider;

1.) CCP wants conflict in the game
2.) CCP wants to implement as few mechanics as possible that hinder the ideals of sandbox game play.

So the thought of increasing or decreasing the actions and consequences imposed by NPCs in the game such as Concord will never happen. They have their balance there they are happy with it, or they would have continued to play with it through several patches until the balance was reached.

The thought of increasing or decreased war dec costs is on the table being that they have fiddled with it multiple times in the past and still seem to not like where it is at currently.

CCP has stated that they would like war decs to be a usable mechanic in Null sec however they haven't come to a solution that fits with the numbered statements above.

In the end it is what CCP decides to do with the game. They are fully aware of the stats and more than likely have it some where in the planning stages to alot dev team time to the issue however it isn't exactly on their high priority list yet due to it not effecting their bottom line.

This is what it is, if you want it to change. Well you play a game that relies heavily on economic models. Draw up a model that could effect CCP's money and you will have a way to control CCP.

CCP is doing it to themselves by the way. I'm sure they have looked at the numbers multiple times. The player retention for EVE isn't exactly the greatest, nor is player account creation. This whole Alpha Clone, Omega Clone thing was an attempt to fix that. FYI, when a game starts to go free to play when it was previously a subscription based game its on its last leg.



Arguably, the wardec system is a major hit on CCP's bottom line, and if it is not a priority for them it sure as hell should be if they want to have Jobs in the future.

Four years ago, I joined EVE and not a single player I joined my first corporation with still plays EVE. We were wardecced, we fought back, lost horribly our cheap T1 ships and earned respect in the usual manner, almost permanent wardecs. Initially before the wardecs we were keen excited and enthusiastic, a bunch of players who expected to play and explore the universe for years, afterwards all we felt was crushed and disillusioned.

I am sure the cry from the wardeccers, "we didn't want those players anyway" will be raised now as it was then.

So, one player survived (me) of about 40.

What is the point of CCP recruiting new players when all that happens is they are cheap content to be preyed on for a month or two before leaving? It certainly doesn't seem to have got any better.
Akane Togenada
Doomheim
#104 - 2017-02-28 22:48:42 UTC
Alderson Point wrote:
Arguably, the wardec system is a major hit on CCP's bottom line, and if it is not a priority for them it sure as hell should be if they want to have Jobs in the future.

Four years ago, I joined EVE and not a single player I joined my first corporation with still plays EVE. We were wardecced, we fought back, lost horribly our cheap T1 ships and earned respect in the usual manner, almost permanent wardecs. Initially before the wardecs we were keen excited and enthusiastic, a bunch of players who expected to play and explore the universe for years, afterwards all we felt was crushed and disillusioned.

I am sure the cry from the wardeccers, "we didn't want those players anyway" will be raised now as it was then.

So, one player survived (me) of about 40.

What is the point of CCP recruiting new players when all that happens is they are cheap content to be preyed on for a month or two before leaving? It certainly doesn't seem to have got any better.


What's your alternative to how war deccs currently work. I think most players agree that it doesn´t really work very well currently but I've seen very few realistic ideas on how one can improve the mechanics. One issue I have is the idea some people have that newbies are supposed to be able to form a Corp without any experienced leadership and still be able to be mostly succesful.

My advice to all new players is to join an existing Corp/Alliance, the advantages compared to starting a brand new Corp are so many that there's not really any reason not chosing that path. All big alliances have Corps dedicated to teach new players the game and not taking advantage of this as a new player is a bad idea in my opinion.

For those unsure of what they want to do there's always EVE-Uni where you can learn anything and keep their options open.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#105 - 2017-03-01 00:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Akane Togenada wrote:
What's your alternative to how war deccs currently work. I think most players agree that it doesn´t really work very well currently but I've seen very few realistic ideas on how one can improve the mechanics. One issue I have is the idea some people have that newbies are supposed to be able to form a Corp without any experienced leadership and still be able to be mostly succesful.
This annoys me, wardec corps get the bad press when it's equally possible that people leave the game because their inexperienced CEO tells them that their only option is to dock up under a wardec, which is the worst option because they end up playing something else while docked and never coming back. My old character's first CEO told me to do that, I moved him to lowsec for a while instead, died, had fun.

Why would anybody follow somebody who has no idea about the game, or what they're doing?

Quote:
My advice to all new players is to join an existing Corp/Alliance, the advantages compared to starting a brand new Corp are so many that there's not really any reason not chosing that path. All big alliances have Corps dedicated to teach new players the game and not taking advantage of this as a new player is a bad idea in my opinion.

For those unsure of what they want to do there's always EVE-Uni where you can learn anything and keep their options open.

So much this.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#106 - 2017-03-01 00:40:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Why would anybody follow somebody who has no idea about the game, or what they're doing? .



Because we don't know that, right off the bat? And you know, in all honesty, the guy might have been wrong, but had his heart in the right place, trying to save you from a lot of grief.

Is that not possible?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#107 - 2017-03-01 00:57:20 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Why would anybody follow somebody who has no idea about the game, or what they're doing? .



Because we don't know that, right off the bat?
That's true enough, even a little knowledge can seem impressive when you have none yourself; which is why we always encourage newbies to join an established player corp, over in NCQA we tend to point them at the well known ones, they tend to have the infrastructure in place to do a really good job of educating and retaining newbies.

Quote:
And you know, in all honesty, the guy might have been wrong, but had his heart in the right place, trying to save you from a lot of grief.

Is that not possible?
He was still telling his corp the same 5 years later, although I understand he rolls the corp these days.

It's a valid response, it's just not the best option, nowhere near it.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#108 - 2017-03-01 01:00:19 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Why would anybody follow somebody who has no idea about the game, or what they're doing? .



Because we don't know that, right off the bat?
That's true enough, even a little knowledge can seem impressive when you have none yourself; which is why we always encourage newbies to join an established player corp, over in NCQA we tend to point them at the well known ones, they tend to have the infrastructure in place to do a really good job of educating and retaining newbies.

Quote:
And you know, in all honesty, the guy might have been wrong, but had his heart in the right place, trying to save you from a lot of grief.

Is that not possible?
He was still telling his corp the same 5 years later, although I understand he rolls the corp these days.

It's a valid response, it's just not the best option, nowhere near it.


Granted, on all points. Where are you on this spectrum? If I dropped my current selfish role and took a risk, would you train me in your corp, knowing what I am?

That is, is it not, what any CEO has to decide?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#109 - 2017-03-01 01:10:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Amojin wrote:
Granted, on all points. Where are you on this spectrum? If I dropped my current selfish role and took a risk, would you train me in your corp, knowing what I am?
Wrong person to ask, while I'm happy to share my knowledge, I'm no leader.

My play style is fairly solitary, most of my interaction with others is social or indirect in nature, a one man corp makes sense for me as a corp with others can't really give me anything that I don't already have

Quote:
That is, is it not, what any CEO has to decide?
Indeed, I know that I'm no leader, I'll follow but I won't follow a fool.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#110 - 2017-03-01 01:14:48 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Granted, on all points. Where are you on this spectrum? If I dropped my current selfish role and took a risk, would you train me in your corp, knowing what I am?
Wrong person to ask, while I'm happy to share my knowledge, I'm no leader.

My play style is fairly solitary, most of my interaction with others is social or indirect in nature, a one man corp makes sense for me as a corp with others can't really give me anything that I don't already have

Quote:
That is, is it not, what any CEO has to decide?
Indeed, I know that I'm no leader, I'll follow but I won't follow a fool.


That's too bad. I don't make the offer, in Wow, in a MUSH, or anywhere else, very often. So be it.

I tend to follow exactly what you just said, trust in me, and my own, my family, and my friends, and not a whole hell of a lot else. I made this offer to someone in Warcraft, exactly zero times. I understand that I need people more experienced than me, at some point, to progress.

You are the only one I would have willingly chosen. It's not all about just having 20k posts and a good record. I need to know that you also give a ****. Most don't. I'll keep looking.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#111 - 2017-03-01 01:33:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
^^ I'll take that as a compliment.

Seriously though, if you want to learn how to survive in Eve, join a corp, preferably one that does dirty deeds because they know every trick in the book, read the forums, especially crime and punishment and ships and modules.

If the information given on a topic doesn't tally with what you think you know, look into it; Eve Uni's wiki is the go to place for confirmation of a lot of things. Alternatively ask people to expand upon what they've said, most will happily go into detail; don't assume that you're right, the other poster may well know the subject intimately.

My advice to you would be to tone down your, for want of a better word, personality P; while a good attitude will get you far in Eve, an "attitude" will hinder you.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#112 - 2017-03-01 01:43:14 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
^^ I'll take that as a compliment.

Seriously though, if you want to learn how to survive in Eve, read the forums, especially crime and punishment and ships and modules.

If the information given on a topic doesn't tally with what you think you know, look into it; Eve Uni's wiki is the go to place for confirmation of a lot of things. Alternatively ask people to expand upon what they've said, most will happily go into detail; don't assume that you're right, the other poster may well know the subject intimately.

My advice to you would be to tone down your, for want of a better word, personality P; while a good attitude will get you far in Eve, "attitude" won't.


Really? Did the militant midget, in Good Times, tone down his attitude as Michael Evans? Did James Garner tone down his attitude in the Rockford Files? Did anyone, that ever amounted to jack ****, at any time, ever make the cardinal sin a priority?

To thine own self be true. I watch every movie River Phoenix ever made, and it''s quite an eye-opener compared to his ****-head brother Joaquin. River bought his dad a Costa Rican spread. Not Joquin. Joaquin is a drunk, a media whore, and quite frankly a Phoenix family disgrace.

While this may neither be here nor there, it's the way my mind works, fragments of this and that, and the only important part is the genuineness or falseness of the fact.

It's exremely difficult to find honesty. I worked at a fancy restaurant in college. I saw a lot of so called celebrities. I respected Morgan Freeman, I respected Mark Harmon. I felt sorry for Hank Williams, Jr. I saw a lot more of the people you all think are so wonderful. They're not. They're shitheads.

I'm not giving up my autonomy to someone I don't know or trust.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#113 - 2017-03-01 01:53:17 UTC
Amojin wrote:
I'm not giving up my autonomy to someone I don't know or trust.
I meant no offence, it was more of an observation on how you may come across to others.

It's totally your call to do as you wish when it comes to how you interact socially, but without actually knowing you what you say and what you type are all we have to go on.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#114 - 2017-03-01 01:55:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Amojin wrote:
I'm not giving up my autonomy to someone I don't know or trust.
I meant no offence, it was more of an observation on how you may come across to others.

It's totally your call to do as you wish when it comes to how you interact socially, but without actually knowing you what you say and what you type are all we have to go on.




Did I type something offensive to you? I read you pretty well, from your history, didn't I? You'd do a good job, if you bothered, and the fact that you refused just proves that you're not a liar. I'd refuse, too, at least at first.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#115 - 2017-03-01 02:07:58 UTC
And now I wish I'd kept my mouth shut Oops You're not offensive, I didn't mean to imply that

It was meant as a friendly bit of advice, it's obviously come across badly and for that I'm sorry.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Amojin
Doomheim
#116 - 2017-03-01 02:17:31 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
And now I wish I'd kept my mouth shut Oops You're not offensive, I didn't mean to imply that

It was meant as a friendly bit of advice, it's obviously come across badly and for that I'm sorry.


No worries. I was baiting you, pushing to see what you really wanted. The answer is that you want to do what you are currently doing. It's fine. I've been doing that, myself, for over a year.

I tend to push to see if people really believe what they are saying Don't take it personally, I would normally say. Except, this time, it was personal, yes. I really looked up a few months of your posts, actually I did that about 3 weeks ago. Yes, I really meant to make you think.

I wouldn't worry, overmuch, about the outcome, though. I don't like people messing with me, either.
Veyreuth
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2017-03-02 16:43:45 UTC
A common point in this thread is that war decades create content, and corporations that receive war decks should be grateful for the content and fight. I don't think people who made these points would feel the same way if there was a mechanic that allowed players to force other players to mine or build stuff. Mining and building stuff is content, but if you're not interested in either, you probably wouldn't be interested in a game mechanic that allows other players to force you to do either on their terms. You might even lose interest in the game, because you log in to do X, but are forced to do Y.

Don't take me the wrong way, there is a place for war decs and high sec shouldn't be safe. At the same time, if I'm a miner in a mining corporation and that's the joy that I get out of the game, and I'm given the choice between PvP in a war dec or staying docked, you need to appreciate that neither option is agreeable... just as being forced to mine or run industry jobs isn't agreeable if you want to PvP with your time.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#118 - 2017-03-02 16:53:31 UTC
I think people just need to view a wardec as what it really is.

It's a bribe to concord and the various empires to look the other way as your corp bashes another corp.

That's all it is.
Charley Varrick
State War Academy
Caldari State
#119 - 2017-03-02 17:12:05 UTC
Veyreuth wrote:
A common point in this thread is that war decades create content, and corporations that receive war decks should be grateful for the content and fight. I don't think people who made these points would feel the same way if there was a mechanic that allowed players to force other players to mine or build stuff. Mining and building stuff is content, but if you're not interested in either, you probably wouldn't be interested in a game mechanic that allows other players to force you to do either on their terms. You might even lose interest in the game, because you log in to do X, but are forced to do Y.

Don't take me the wrong way, there is a place for war decs and high sec shouldn't be safe. At the same time, if I'm a miner in a mining corporation and that's the joy that I get out of the game, and I'm given the choice between PvP in a war dec or staying docked, you need to appreciate that neither option is agreeable... just as being forced to mine or run industry jobs isn't agreeable if you want to PvP with your time.



I gotta say, you do raise a valid point. PVPers can force their content/play style on miners/industrialist but not the other way around. I can just see all the rage over a game mechanic that says "in order to complete the war dec you must go mine 2mill units of veldspar or run 10 lev4 missions". lol
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#120 - 2017-03-02 18:41:56 UTC
Charley Varrick wrote:
Veyreuth wrote:
A common point in this thread is that war decades create content, and corporations that receive war decks should be grateful for the content and fight. I don't think people who made these points would feel the same way if there was a mechanic that allowed players to force other players to mine or build stuff. Mining and building stuff is content, but if you're not interested in either, you probably wouldn't be interested in a game mechanic that allows other players to force you to do either on their terms. You might even lose interest in the game, because you log in to do X, but are forced to do Y.

Don't take me the wrong way, there is a place for war decs and high sec shouldn't be safe. At the same time, if I'm a miner in a mining corporation and that's the joy that I get out of the game, and I'm given the choice between PvP in a war dec or staying docked, you need to appreciate that neither option is agreeable... just as being forced to mine or run industry jobs isn't agreeable if you want to PvP with your time.



I gotta say, you do raise a valid point. PVPers can force their content/play style on miners/industrialist but not the other way around. I can just see all the rage over a game mechanic that says "in order to complete the war dec you must go mine 2mill units of veldspar or run 10 lev4 missions". lol


Well... you could argue that any time a PvP player buys something from the market that was manufactured, they took part in the manufacturing process.