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War decs : not achieving objectives

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Salvos Rhoska
#321 - 2017-03-16 16:54:15 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Snip

You have ignored and not responded to my questions to you.
Dont expect me to answer yours till you have answered mine.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#322 - 2017-03-16 16:56:48 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I think a key point to keep in mind that with war decs some of these players simply not not want ship-to-ship PvP. Ever. The idea of pushing some of them into that kind of PvP may very well push them out of the game, at least temporarily.

They are playing a PvP based game.

If they choose not to play a PvP based game for a week, so as to avoid PvP, then so be it.

Perfectly valid tactic.


I'm not disputing it as a tactic.

We really want players to not play at all? Instead of dropping to an NPC corp, it is GTFO? Yeah, no. Seems rather harsh to me. Having some subset of players basically say, "When I get war decced I don't really want to log in until that dec drops," seems like a dubious option for CCP and player retention.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#323 - 2017-03-16 16:58:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You have ignored and not responded to my questions to you.
Dont expect me to answer yours till you have answered mine.

What? Shocked

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Salvos Rhoska
#324 - 2017-03-16 16:58:50 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Going NPC does have a cost in the form of 10% NPC taxes to everything.

That is not a cost for joining an NPC Corp.
Its a tax on your income after joining an NPC Corp.

Two distinct and different things.


What™?

If you know your income is going to be reduced by 10% pretty sure you'll see that as a cost.

If you were a business and there was going to be a change in regulations, for example, that was going to raise your costs by 10% you'd see it as a cost. You'd likely respond with reducing however much you produce, raising your price, both, and in some cases maybe even shutting down operations and moving on to the next best opportunity.


The cost of joining is separate from taxes incurred from action post-joining.

Its not hard, Mr. Economist.

If you want 0% tax, flee to a new Corp of your own making, or an existing one.
If you want wardec safety, be prepared to pay for it, both as an entrance fee, and as a tax on your income.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#325 - 2017-03-16 17:00:28 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
You have ignored and not responded to my questions to you.
Dont expect me to answer yours till you have answered mine.

What? Shocked

Look back through the thread.
Its there.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#326 - 2017-03-16 17:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
I think a key point to keep in mind that with war decs some of these players simply not not want ship-to-ship PvP. Ever. The idea of pushing some of them into that kind of PvP may very well push them out of the game, at least temporarily.

They are playing a PvP based game.

If they choose not to play a PvP based game for a week, so as to avoid PvP, then so be it.

Perfectly valid tactic.


I'm not disputing it as a tactic.

We really want players to not play at all? Instead of dropping to an NPC corp, it is GTFO? Yeah, no. Seems rather harsh to me. Having some subset of players basically say, "When I get war decced I don't really want to log in until that dec drops," seems like a dubious option for CCP and player retention.


Nothing prevents them joining another corp, creating one, or going NPC.
Or, they can play on alts for a week. Or AFK for a week.

5 options + fighting as the 6th or hiring someone to fight for you as the 7th.

And your point was....?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#327 - 2017-03-16 17:03:44 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
If a player goes NPC, currently, they pay nothing, whilst the wardecer loses their wardec investment.
Is that fair?

Going to a war should be riskless?

Found, sorry was about to answer but there is new PLEX thread and forgot.
Is that fair you say? what is the cost of wardecc for attacker?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Salvos Rhoska
#328 - 2017-03-16 17:05:15 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
If a player goes NPC, currently, they pay nothing, whilst the wardecer loses their wardec investment.
Is that fair?

Going to a war should be riskless?

Found, sorry was about to answer but there is new PLEX thread and forgot.
Is that fair you say? what is the cost of wardecc for attacker?


That is not what I asked you.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#329 - 2017-03-16 17:07:30 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Going NPC does have a cost in the form of 10% NPC taxes to everything.

That is not a cost for joining an NPC Corp.
Its a tax on your income after joining an NPC Corp.

Two distinct and different things.


What™?

If you know your income is going to be reduced by 10% pretty sure you'll see that as a cost.

If you were a business and there was going to be a change in regulations, for example, that was going to raise your costs by 10% you'd see it as a cost. You'd likely respond with reducing however much you produce, raising your price, both, and in some cases maybe even shutting down operations and moving on to the next best opportunity.


The cost of joining is separate from taxes incurred from action post-joining.

Its not hard, Mr. Economist.

If you want 0% tax, flee to a new Corp of your own making, or an existing one.
If you want wardec safety, be prepared to pay for it, both as an entrance fee, and as a tax on your income.


It is still a cost. You were trying to read more into Indahmawar Fazmarai's comment. Going NPC corp entails a cost going forward that cost is a 10% tax....if your current corp has no taxes that is or taxes lower than NPC corps.

And you are missing my point from my last several posts, I probably did not make it clear enough:

You are saying you want to up those costs. Fine. That is not unreasonable.

What I am finding doubtful is how you want to impose those costs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#330 - 2017-03-16 17:12:44 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
That is not what I asked you.

Salvos, stop being Salvos for ten second, and link the question because I have no idea what you talking about.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#331 - 2017-03-16 17:16:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
If a player goes NPC, currently, they pay nothing, whilst the wardecer loses their wardec investment.
Is that fair?

Going to a war should be riskless?


NOTE: the quoting was messed up. I think it is correct now

Why is it that when somebody makes a point, the other party to the discussion runs to the ridiculous extreme?

Case in point above: Salvos notes, correctly, that if a corp decs another corp, and the players in the decced corp all drop to an NPC corp, the deccing corp has essentially lost their wardec investment.

So Jeremiah responds with this: Going to a war should be riskless?

Shocked

Uhhh, what?

The issue of the costs to those declaring war are moot once the war is declared. Once the war is declared that "investment" is sunk--i.e. unrecoverable. Sunk costs should have no impact on your decisions once they are sunk.

Prior to the costs being sunk they can have an impact on the decision: Do I sink these costs and hopefully get something out of it, or do I not sink them and not pursue this opportunity. Ironically, raising the stakes for war decced players to move to an NPC corp will change this calculus in favor of the war deccing corp. If it becomes less likely players will drop to an NPC corp, then the downside to sinking those costs also go down.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#332 - 2017-03-16 17:23:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Going NPC does have a cost in the form of 10% NPC taxes to everything.

That is not a cost for joining an NPC Corp.
Its a tax on your income after joining an NPC Corp.

Two distinct and different things.


What™?

If you know your income is going to be reduced by 10% pretty sure you'll see that as a cost.

If you were a business and there was going to be a change in regulations, for example, that was going to raise your costs by 10% you'd see it as a cost. You'd likely respond with reducing however much you produce, raising your price, both, and in some cases maybe even shutting down operations and moving on to the next best opportunity.


The cost of joining is separate from taxes incurred from action post-joining.

Its not hard, Mr. Economist.

If you want 0% tax, flee to a new Corp of your own making, or an existing one.
If you want wardec safety, be prepared to pay for it, both as an entrance fee, and as a tax on your income.


It is still a cost. You were trying to read more into Indahmawar Fazmarai's comment. Going NPC corp entails a cost going forward that cost is a 10% tax....if your current corp has no taxes that is or taxes lower than NPC corps.

And you are missing my point from my last several posts, I probably did not make it clear enough:

You are saying you want to up those costs. Fine. That is not unreasonable.

What I am finding doubtful is how you want to impose those costs.


Its a tax on earning profit in an NPC Corp, not a cost of joining one.
They are two separate costs. That is unequivocal.

My proposal is simple. A flat 75mil cost per character to join an NPC Corp.
If you cant/wont pay that for non-wardecability, join another player corps/alliance, or form a new Corps.
The former will cost you nothing, and the latter will cost you 1.6mil.
Or fly alts. Or fight. Or hire someone to fight for you. Or AFK for a week.

How many more options do you suggest a player dealing with a wardec needs?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#333 - 2017-03-16 17:31:14 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
That is not what I asked you.

Salvos, stop being Salvos for ten second, and link the question because I have no idea what you talking about.


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6874309#post6874309

And what is this "stop being Salvos" ****.
Ive never seen you before this thread.
I just now did your homework and due diligence for you.
How is that for "being Salvos"?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Salvos Rhoska
#334 - 2017-03-16 17:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
So Salvos responds with this: Going to a war should be riskless?

Uhhh, what?.


Jeremiah said "Going to a war should be riskless?".
Not me.

I responded with "Wat?" and politely asked for an explanation.

Your facts and people are arse backwards and confused, Teckos

I didnt say that. He did.
And I was just as confused as you are about it, so I said "Wat?", as you did, and asked for an explanation.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#335 - 2017-03-16 17:44:06 UTC
Lost track of this thread slightly, but has anyone pointed out that avoiding a war dec is not the only reason to drop to an NPC corp?

There are several reasons someone might want to leave their corp, and not actually go straight into another player corp. Having to pay 75 mil to do so might be a little steep imo.

But then I'm not all that bothered about wars myself. Wars exist at this time solely as a means to bypass Concord mechanics, and they do this perfectly well. However they are not unavoidable, nor should they be.

If the defending corp has no assets to protect, and subsequently disbands into NPC corps, so what? It was a pointless war dec to start with obviously, so all the deccers have lost is their initial fee.....perhaps they should of considered a little more carefully before spending it.

If the dec results in the destruction of a few careless haulers/ missioners who should of paid more attention, then the dec "worked". All good.

I for one couldn't care less if random deccing happens, and not particularly bothered if people can avoid it. The only time war decs actually matter as far as I'm concerned is when there is an "purpose" to them, namely the removal of in-space assets, or the control of an area. In those types of dec, I do feel that the mechanics around in-space assets should be set up in such a way as to make it impossible to take down a structure before a dec goes live....if you want your fancy space station you better be in a position to defend it.....or rich enough to hire mercs to defend it for you.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#336 - 2017-03-16 17:44:45 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Its a tax on earning profit in an NPC Corp, not a cost of joining one.


Actually it is. It isn't a cost you pay explicitly when you join, but it is still a cost. A cost that is on certain income streams. And it starts the moment you join.

What you want to impose is a sunk cost on top of the NPC corp tax costs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#337 - 2017-03-16 17:51:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
So Salvos responds with this: Going to a war should be riskless?

Uhhh, what?.


Jeremiah said "Going to a war should be riskless?".
Not me.

I responded with "Wat?" and politely asked for an explanation.

Your facts and people are arse backwards and confused, Teckos

I didnt say that. He did.
And I was just as confused as you are about it, so I said "Wat?", as you did, and asked for an explanation.


Yes, looks like the quoting in the last couple of posts was messed up.

There changed the quotes to be accurate, and swapped names around.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Salvos Rhoska
#338 - 2017-03-16 18:12:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Teckos Pech wrote:
What you want to impose is a sunk cost on top of the NPC corp tax costs.

Its not a cost till you pay it.
If you perform 0 tax inducing actions in an Corp, you incur 0 cost.

That NPC Corps have a 10% tax rate is what NPC Corps are.
If you dont want a 10% tax rate, dont join one.

Yes, I want to implement a flat cost for joining an NPC Corp.
The 75mil figure is negotiable, the onus is that avoiding wardecs by joining NPC should not be without cost.

Not only is free transfer to an NPC Corp unfair to the wardeccers 50+mil investment sunk, it is anathema in EVE.
NOTHING, anywhere in EVE, should be free, as far as practically possible. Especially SAFETY should not be free.

Note also that the 75mil figure was submitted as part of a larger proposal in which NPC Corps always are at war with a diametrically opposed NPC Corp. The purpose of that, was to create a sufficient, but not insurmountable, and identical cost to both the player escaping a wardec, and a dedicated aggressor to pursue them (plus their lost 50+mil on the initial wardec).

75mil is enough of a mark up, to offset the wardeccers initial investment to cause the target to choose to go NPC, such that the target incurs atleast a 25mil penalty for doing so.

If the target wont fight, they should pay not to, just as the aggressor paid to fight, unless they join another player corp/alliance, and thus involve other players in it, which is a PvP choice in essence.

Swapping to an NPC Corp willy-nilly, at no cost, harms EVE and content.

We can disagree, but I personally think escaping into an NPC Corp is too easy and cheap, and too safe.
This is detrimental to content, and inequitable when its free.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Torin Corax
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#339 - 2017-03-16 18:24:30 UTC
Salvos, not sure if you specified this in a previous post. Concerning the permanent NPC wars....is this a player only distinction or are you involving the NPC's themselves in this? Namely, are you talking about enforced FW for all?

I am not particularly interested in partaking of FW at this time, and approve of the fact that it is a voluntary activity/ playstyle. As you are no doubt aware I have issues with NPC "interference" in player-driven activities ;)

If you are talking about a war that only extends to players themselves though...I might be ok with that. However in such a circumstance I'd go so far as to suggest that the requirement to pay to drop into an NPC corp seems superfluous.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#340 - 2017-03-16 18:24:59 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
What you want to impose is a sunk cost on top of the NPC corp tax costs.

Its not a cost till you pay it.
If you perform 0 tax inducing actions in an Corp, you incur 0 cost.

That NPC Corps have a 10% tax rate is what NPC Corps are.
If you dont want a 10% tax rate, dont join one.

Yes, I want to implement a flat cost for joining an NPC Corp.
The 75mil figure is negotiable, the onus is that avoiding wardecs should not be without cost.

Not only is free transfer to an NPC Corp unfair to the wardeccers 50+mil investment sunk, it is anathema in EVE.
NOTHING, anywhere in EVE, should be free, as far as practically possible. Especially SAFETY should not be free.

Note also that the 75mil figure was submitted as part of a larger proposal in which NPC Corps always are at war with a diametrically opposed NPC Corp. The purpose of that, was to create a sufficient, but not insurmountable, and identical cost to both the player escaping a wardec, and a dedicated aggressor to pursue them (plus their lost 50+mil on the initial wardec).

75mil is enough of a mark up, to offset the wardeccers initial investment to cause the target to choose to go NPC, such that the target incurs atleast a 25mil penalty for doing so.

If the target wont fight, they should pay not to, just as the aggressor paid to fight.

We can disagree, but I personally think escaping into an NPC Corp is too easy and cheap, and too safe.
This is detrimental to content, and inequitable when its free.


Okay, not paying it is a cost too.

To avoid that cost I have to basically set certain income streams to zero. That is even more costly in terms of forgone ISK.

Joining an NPC corp is not free. Maybe it is not costly enough, I'm just not sure your approach is good. For example another way to increase the costs is to impose a 60 day minimum in NPC corps.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online