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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#621 - 2017-02-27 07:23:33 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX

Define Criminal.

Maybe you should do it as you seems to think you know this better than me, so teach me.
Taking your tack.

I asked first, and I have a sneaking suspicion that your definition is not the same as the one we're using.

How do you define criminal?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#622 - 2017-02-27 07:24:13 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

But again, this is not what the issue is about anyways, it's about what kind of consequences every criminals in EVE should face for doing crimes times after times independent of how many of few ships they have and independent of how much or little isk they have and independent of who they are and where they are. Once they commit a crime, then something will happen to the criminals that isn't harsh enough, specially if they just keep doing it.

That's what this is all about, so stop making lame excuses.


so again, for the nth time, what are those consequences and it's veracity to warrant this change.


You don't get any more consequences or penalty other than the 15 minute Concord timer for doing ganks in high sec which i have said a million times that is the problem. It's simple to just jump into a new ship and keep doing the ganks without ANY more consequences than just the 15 minute Concord timer.

Because of that, there should be a criminal system in EVE that punishes the criminals / gankers harder and harder the more crimes they do, which is a normal thing to do against criminals in the first place.

What's so hard about this to understand?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#623 - 2017-02-27 07:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX

Define Criminal.

Maybe you should do it as you seems to think you know this better than me, so teach me.
Taking your tack.

I asked first, and I have a sneaking suspicion that your definition is not the same as the one we're using.

How do you define criminal?

Ok, so you are basicly saying i know this better than you and have to explain this to you and teach you how this works?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#624 - 2017-02-27 07:27:46 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX

Define Criminal.

Maybe you should do it as you seems to think you know this better than me, so teach me.
Taking your tack.

I asked first, and I have a sneaking suspicion that your definition is not the same as the one we're using.

How do you define criminal?

Ok, so you are basicly saying i know this better than you and have to explain this to you and teach you how this works?
No, I'm asking you how you define criminal. I already know what a criminal in Eve is.

It's a simple request, stop deflecting and answer the question.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#625 - 2017-02-27 07:34:51 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX

Define Criminal.

Maybe you should do it as you seems to think you know this better than me, so teach me.
Taking your tack.

I asked first, and I have a sneaking suspicion that your definition is not the same as the one we're using.

How do you define criminal?

Ok, so you are basicly saying i know this better than you and have to explain this to you and teach you how this works?
No, I'm asking you how you define criminal. I already know what a criminal in Eve is.

It's a simple request, stop deflecting and answer the question.

A criminal is someone who commit an act that is breaking the law. And by breaking the law, you should be punished harder and harder the more you breaks the law. This is a normal practice against criminals this way.

When you look at what a criminal in real life is............

In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. The term "crime" does not, in modern criminal law, have any simple and universally accepted definition, though statutory definitions have been provided for certain purposes. The most popular view is that crime is a category created by law; in other words, something is a crime if declared as such by the relevant and applicable law. One proposed definition is that a crime or offence (or criminal offence) is an act harmful not only to some individual or individuals but also to a community, society or the state ("a public wrong"). Such acts are forbidden and punishable by law.

The notion that acts such as murder, **** and theft are to be prohibited exists worldwide. What precisely is a criminal offence is defined by criminal law of each country. While many have a catalogue of crimes called the criminal code, in some common law countries no such comprehensive statute exists.

The state (government) has the power to severely restrict one's liberty for committing a crime. In modern societies, there are procedures to which investigations and trials must adhere. If found guilty, an offender may be sentenced to a form of reparation such as a community sentence, or, depending on the nature of their offence, to undergo imprisonment, life imprisonment or, in some jurisdictions, execution.

Usually, to be classified as a crime, the "act of doing something criminal" (actus reus) must – with certain exceptions – be accompanied by the "intention to do something criminal" (mens rea).

While every crime violates the law, not every violation of the law counts as a crime. Breaches of private law (torts and breaches of contract) are not automatically punished by the state, but can be enforced through civil procedure.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#626 - 2017-02-27 07:41:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
A criminal is someone who commit an act that is breaking the law. And by breaking the law, you should be punished harder and harder the more you breaks the law. This is a normal practice against crininals this way.

When you look at what a criminal in real life is............

In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. The term "crime" does not, in modern criminal law, have any simple and universally accepted definition, though statutory definitions have been provided for certain purposes. The most popular view is that crime is a category created by law; in other words, something is a crime if declared as such by the relevant and applicable law. One proposed definition is that a crime or offence (or criminal offence) is an act harmful not only to some individual or individuals but also to a community, society or the state ("a public wrong"). Such acts are forbidden and punishable by law.

The notion that acts such as murder, **** and theft are to be prohibited exists worldwide. What precisely is a criminal offence is defined by criminal law of each country. While many have a catalogue of crimes called the criminal code, in some common law countries no such comprehensive statute exists.

The state (government) has the power to severely restrict one's liberty for committing a crime. In modern societies, there are procedures to which investigations and trials must adhere. If found guilty, an offender may be sentenced to a form of reparation such as a community sentence, or, depending on the nature of their offence, to undergo imprisonment, life imprisonment or, in some jurisdictions, execution.

Usually, to be classified as a crime, the "act of doing something criminal" (actus reus) must – with certain exceptions – be accompanied by the "intention to do something criminal" (mens rea).

While every crime violates the law, not every violation of the law counts as a crime. Breaches of private law (torts and breaches of contract) are not automatically punished by the state, but can be enforced through civil procedure.
Yep as I thought, you're using the real life definition of criminal, as copied verbatim from wikipedia.

We're using the ingame mechanics definition, which is somebody that has a criminal flag.

Context is everything, and in the context of Eve your definition is wrong.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#627 - 2017-02-27 07:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yep as I thought, you're using the real life definition of criminal, as copied verbatim from wikipedia.

We're using the ingame mechanics definition, which is somebody who has a criminal flag.

Context is everything, and in the context of Eve your definition is wrong.

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments for what a crimninal is in EVE when EVE is all about human characters anyways?

We live in a human world after all.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#628 - 2017-02-27 07:53:28 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

Keep to the point of what kind of consequences a criminal should face once they commit a crime or just leave this topic with your lame trolling.

It doesn't help what kind of excuses you use when the whole point is that when the criminals DOES have a ship in station and then undocks and then ganks someone that is what this is all about. Not anything before that. Only what the criminal player does after they have undocked a ship no matter how rarely they would be able to get a ship or not.

If they can get 1 million Destroyers into the station or if they only can do one gank before they are out of ships doesn't matter as it's the act of criminal acts after you have undocked a ship that is what i'm talking about.

Keep to that or simply just stop making troll posts.


The point is that a suicide ganker cannot reship if somebody did not pre-position those ships, fit them, and then put them on contract.

That you want to ignore this is because it does not fit with your narrative....which makes you dishonest in the extreme.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#629 - 2017-02-27 07:54:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
NightmareX wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

But again, this is not what the issue is about anyways, it's about what kind of consequences every criminals in EVE should face for doing crimes times after times independent of how many of few ships they have and independent of how much or little isk they have and independent of who they are and where they are. Once they commit a crime, then something will happen to the criminals that isn't harsh enough, specially if they just keep doing it.

That's what this is all about, so stop making lame excuses.


so again, for the nth time, what are those consequences and it's veracity to warrant this change.


You don't get any more consequences or penalty other than the 15 minute Concord timer for doing ganks in high sec which i have said a million times that is the problem. It's simple to just jump into a new ship and keep doing the ganks without ANY more consequences than just the 15 minute Concord timer.

Because of that, there should be a criminal system in EVE that punishes the criminals / gankers harder and harder the more crimes they do, which is a normal thing to do against criminals in the first place.

What's so hard about this to understand?


because your answer is revolving around what you FEEL and NO concrete evidence to support that the change is needed.

read your reply again, your 1st sentence on your 1st paragraph just mentioned that you feel 15 min is not enough and therefore a problem, why? after that, no explanation whatsoever, why the fck is 15 min not enough?

then you start your 2nd paragraph with, 'because of that..' as if you said any to explain anything. then you again mentioned that criminals/gankers should be punished harder and harder the more crimes they do, again, why? what i find funny about your statement there is you implied that we are just simple criminals and forget how POWERFUL capsuleers we are. lol

Just Add Water
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#630 - 2017-02-27 07:55:00 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

A criminal is someone who commit an act that is breaking the law. And by breaking the law, you should be punished harder and harder the more you breaks the law. This is a normal practice against criminals this way.

When you look at what a criminal in real life is............

In ordinary language, a crime is an unlawful act punishable by a state or other authority. The term "crime" does not, in modern criminal law, have any simple and universally accepted definition, though statutory definitions have been provided for certain purposes. The most popular view is that crime is a category created by law; in other words, something is a crime if declared as such by the relevant and applicable law. One proposed definition is that a crime or offence (or criminal offence) is an act harmful not only to some individual or individuals but also to a community, society or the state ("a public wrong"). Such acts are forbidden and punishable by law.

The notion that acts such as murder, **** and theft are to be prohibited exists worldwide. What precisely is a criminal offence is defined by criminal law of each country. While many have a catalogue of crimes called the criminal code, in some common law countries no such comprehensive statute exists.

The state (government) has the power to severely restrict one's liberty for committing a crime. In modern societies, there are procedures to which investigations and trials must adhere. If found guilty, an offender may be sentenced to a form of reparation such as a community sentence, or, depending on the nature of their offence, to undergo imprisonment, life imprisonment or, in some jurisdictions, execution.

Usually, to be classified as a crime, the "act of doing something criminal" (actus reus) must – with certain exceptions – be accompanied by the "intention to do something criminal" (mens rea).

While every crime violates the law, not every violation of the law counts as a crime. Breaches of private law (torts and breaches of contract) are not automatically punished by the state, but can be enforced through civil procedure.


WTIF....?

Shocked

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#631 - 2017-02-27 07:56:17 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is that a suicide ganker cannot reship if somebody did not pre-position those ships, fit them, and then put them on contract.

That you want to ignore this is because it does not fit with your narrative....which makes you dishonest in the extreme.

Again, you are making no sense at all. If you want to talk, then please come back when you can talk about what the issue is with the act of doing crimes. Don't expect me to take you any serious from now on if you can't HTFU and discuss the actual issue. I will ignore you lame trolling from now on.

Have a nice day.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#632 - 2017-02-27 07:56:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Yeah, looks like its a dirtsucker definition of crime/criminal activity. the sort that capsuleers are known to not pay attention to. 1 isk is more than a planet dweller is likely to see in a lifetime. The smallest ship could lay waste to a planet, but that would be unprofitable. Capsuleers are immortal, what laws can matter to someone who has a backup or six?

Your idea that punishment should be a dettering force goes against what eve is. Players are the enemy, rats are just an economic faucet. Face it, people that want more punishment want less risk, less difficulty. To be clear they want WOW, or Archeage or any other hand holding consent based mock economy/war game.

If eve bothers you that much, you do have a choice of not playing. But you wont stop, because you would be admitting defeat. Your only chance at winning is to try to use the devs to ruin other people fun, instead of doing it yourself. Wipe your own ass, feed yourself, put on your own clothes like a big boy, or go play with the toddlers in the WOW playpen.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#633 - 2017-02-27 07:58:03 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yep as I thought, you're using the real life definition of criminal, as copied verbatim from wikipedia.

We're using the ingame mechanics definition, which is somebody who has a criminal flag.

Context is everything, and in the context of Eve your definition is wrong.

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments for what a crimninal is in EVE when EVE is all about human characters anyways?

We live in a human world after all.


WE ARE NOT HUMANS WE ARE IMMORTAL POWERFUL CAPSULEERS, CONCORD IS AFRAID OF US, THE ONLY THING SAVING THEM FROM ANNIHILATION IS BECAUSE WE DON"T CARE.

Just Add Water
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#634 - 2017-02-27 07:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Nat Silverguard wrote:
because your answer is revolving around what you FEEL and NO concrete evidence to support that the change is needed.

read your reply again, your 1st sentence on your 1st paragraph just mentioned that you feel 15 min is not enough and therefore a problem, why? after that, no explanation whatsoever, why the fck is 15 min not enough?

then you start your 2nd paragraph with, 'because of that..' as if you said any to explained anything. then you again mentioned that criminals/gankers should be punished harder and harder the more crimes they do, again, why? what i find funny about your statement there is you implied that we are just simple criminals and forget how POWERFUL capsuleers we are. lol



Again, as you have ignored all of my points i have been telling earlier, then i'm also gonna ignore you for not reading those points from now on.

I have given many good points on why a criminal in EVE should be treated as a criminal like in real life as we are playing a game that is all about humans after all. So it's not just about what i feel, but about what a criminal actually is and how they should be treated.

And this is what you can't even explain why it shouldn't be like that in EVE.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#635 - 2017-02-27 08:00:10 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments.....


Because it is a farking video game you doorknob.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#636 - 2017-02-27 08:01:30 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
The point is that a suicide ganker cannot reship if somebody did not pre-position those ships, fit them, and then put them on contract.

That you want to ignore this is because it does not fit with your narrative....which makes you dishonest in the extreme.

Again, you are making no sense at all. If you want to talk, then please come back when you can talk about what the issue is with the act of doing crimes. Don't expect me to take you any serious from now on if you can't HTFU and discuss the actual issue. I will ignore you lame trolling from now on.

Have a nice day.


Yes, it is totally nonsensical to ask, "Where do those ships come from."

Yes...completely ridiculous.

Jesus, but you are just being boneheaded in the extreme.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#637 - 2017-02-27 08:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
NightmareX wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
because your answer is revolving around what you FEEL and NO concrete evidence to support that the change is needed.

read your reply again, your 1st sentence on your 1st paragraph just mentioned that you feel 15 min is not enough and therefore a problem, why? after that, no explanation whatsoever, why the fck is 15 min not enough?

then you start your 2nd paragraph with, 'because of that..' as if you said any to explained anything. then you again mentioned that criminals/gankers should be punished harder and harder the more crimes they do, again, why? what i find funny about your statement there is you implied that we are just simple criminals and forget how POWERFUL capsuleers we are. lol



Again, as you have ignored all of my points i have been telling earlier, then i'm also gonna ignore you for not reading those points from now on.

I have given many good points on why a criminal in EVE should be treated as a criminal like in real life as we are playing a game that is all about humans after all. So it's not just about what i feel, but about what a criminal actually is and how they should be treated.

And this is what you can't even explain why it shouldn't be like that in EVE.


dude, stop with the real life comparison.

in game we are not humans, we are capsuleers, get that through your skull.

in real life, i won't be orbiting a plex, trying to caputre or protect a solar system for a hippie govenment.

Just Add Water
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#638 - 2017-02-27 08:02:38 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments.....


Because it is a farking video game you doorknob.

Like i said earlier, lame excuse for what the real issue is. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean you can just keep ganking other like no tomorrow without more consequences for keep doing it.

It's a game that has to be fun for everyone to play and not just for the gankers. And like i also said earlier that you seems to have ignored completely is that no freighter polits is having fun playing EVE knowing that the gankers can just keep ganking forever without facing any harder consequences for doing their crimes more and more.

That's the issue to.
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yes, it is totally nonsensical to ask, "Where do those ships come from."

Yes...completely ridiculous.

Jesus, but you are just being boneheaded in the extreme.

News @ 11 for you. It's the act of crimes in space with a ship that matters here independent of how many or few ships you have available.

The fact that you haven't figured this out yet, tells me that your IQ can't be high.
Nat Silverguard wrote:
dude, stop with the real life comparison.

in game we are not humans, we are capsuleers, get that through your skull.


Read over what i said to Teckos. So please stop with the lame excuses.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#639 - 2017-02-27 08:07:34 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments.....


Because it is a farking video game you doorknob.

Like i said earlier, lame excuse for what the real issue is. Just because it's a game, doesn't mean you can just keep ganking other like no tomorrow without more consequences for keep doing it.

It's a game that has to be fun for everyone to play and not just for the gankers. And like i also said earlier that you seems to have ignored completely is that no freighter polits is having fun playing EVE knowing that the gankers can just keep ganking forever without facing any harder consequences for doing their crimes more and more.

That's the issue to.


In this video game we play immortals...people who cannot die. Kill my current meat puppet and my consciousness will fly across light years to a new meat puppet that will house my consciousness...I will then step into a new ship and continue on my merry way. I cannot be permanently killed. I can only be sent to a far off destination, at best.

I no longer identify with the dirt dwellers crawling along the surface of various planets. I have moved beyond them.

As such your notions of justice and law do not hold for me and my kind.

That is the lore of this game.

That you keep trying to shoe-horn everything into today's mores and norms just makes you look like a fool. Especially for a player since 2004. Are you sure you didn't buy that character?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#640 - 2017-02-27 08:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yep as I thought, you're using the real life definition of criminal, as copied verbatim from wikipedia.

We're using the ingame mechanics definition, which is somebody who has a criminal flag.

Context is everything, and in the context of Eve your definition is wrong.

The question is, why shouldn't we use real life arguments for what a crimninal is in EVE when EVE is all about human characters anyways?

We live in a human world after all.
We, as in the players, live in a human world; our characters live in another universe.

Reality and fantasy, know the difference.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack