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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2017-02-27 06:18:02 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You're claiming that ganking is too easy, when provided evidence as to what actually goes into organising a ganking operation, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

As for ganking in Jita, for the most part they ship the stuff in themselves, they already have a logistics chain in place, they have no need to pay over-inflated Jita market prices. The current operation in Jita took months of planning and coordination to organise.

Ganking is easy once you have the ships in your hangar which is the whole point. The point is that you as a criminal can commit crimes / ganking way to easy once you have undocked. And on top of that continue to do that times after times without any more consequences.

Let's keep to the point instead of bringing in other things that hasn't anything to do with doing the actual crimes.


Yes, lets assume away all the hard work of various people and then yes, it is easy.

And of course completely and totally dishonest. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#582 - 2017-02-27 06:19:27 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.


Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#583 - 2017-02-27 06:19:30 UTC
Nightmarex, have you ever ganked before?

HTFU
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#584 - 2017-02-27 06:22:27 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.


Derp-dee-derp-dee-derp.

The potential loot drop is what determines who gets ganked or not. So, 7 kills and 75 billion in loot. Let's subtract of 20 billion in hull value (and overestimate) which means that 55 million in loot. It means that on average, about 7.9 billion was in those ships of which 3.9 billion dropped in loot.

Now...why was that possible? It was possible because freighter pilots put about 7.9 billion worth cargo into their cargo hold.

If they had not done that, there would be nothing to post about.



Lets just look at 5.9t vs 14bil.... and thats just karma fleet (burn jita events must be off the chain since this doesn't happen outside the burn jita events.)

Kusion: 9.48t vs 31bil - a solo gank pilot


Solo gank with multiple pilots.

But why does he get 9.48 trillion? And have you separated out hull value vs. drop value? What? You haven't? Geee. How about how many JFs vs. freighters? Have you categorized the kill value vs. loss value by that category? No?

Well **** son, you have some work to do don't you.

Throwing around big numbers doesn't mean **** if they aren't put into context.

Did you ever take a statistics course? Can you eve-mail me the professor's name? I want to contact him and have him give you and F retroactively.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#585 - 2017-02-27 06:23:24 UTC
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Imya Wormhole wrote:
I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him.
I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix".

Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences.

Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE.

Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today.


this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore...

CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.




Hi Nat, your late to the party, but better late than not at all. P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#586 - 2017-02-27 06:28:09 UTC
Faylee Freir wrote:
Nightmarex, have you ever ganked before?


Good question.

Jonah is not really a "shoot them in the face kind of guy" and that's cool. But he has actually gone a couple of gank fleets just to see what it was like. And based on his posts it was a informative experience.

I think every Bad™ should do what Jonah did. Just try it and see what it is like. You don't have to like or keep on doing it, but see what it actually takes. Instead of making assumptions have an honest and up front discussion with people who gank freighters. You probably won't get to talk to the head-honchos, but talk to some of the people who do it. If your lucky maybe you can talk to the poor sod who fits the ships and puts them on contracts. Granted, my understanding is CCP has made that easier, but back in the day that was some serious work.

This notion that "ganking is easy money" is just too stupid to believe. Anyone saying that has not had to put 300 ships on contract.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#587 - 2017-02-27 06:30:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.


Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here.

The point is still that they can go in together by ganking something juicy and still be able to do that without any more consequences other than having to wait 15 mins.

It's that what we are talking about. And that 15 minute timer is the problem. It's way to short when you start to gank more and more.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#588 - 2017-02-27 06:30:26 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Imya Wormhole wrote:
I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him.
I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix".

Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences.

Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE.

Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today.


this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore...

CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.




Hence the edit in the OP: CONCORD -> Faction Police


so how can a single major faction (ex. caldari) control capsuleers if CONCORD itself which is supported by not only 1, but by 4 major factions, can not?

not to mention the fact that caldari (for jita) are full of whimps and are incompetent, what do you expect them to accomplish against powerful capsuleers?!

Just Add Water
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#589 - 2017-02-27 06:31:30 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Imya Wormhole wrote:
I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him.
I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix".

Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences.

Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE.

Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today.


this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore...

CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.




Hi Nat, your late to the party, but better late than not at all. P


o7

Just Add Water
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#590 - 2017-02-27 06:32:45 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.


Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here.

The point is still that they can go in together by ganking something juicy and still be able to do that without any more consequences other than having to wait 15 mins.

It's that what we are talking about. And that 15 minute timer is the problem. It's way to short when you start to gank more and more.


No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.

There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#591 - 2017-02-27 06:35:14 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.

There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic.

You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Faylee Freir
Abusing Game Mechanics
#592 - 2017-02-27 06:38:26 UTC
Hi Nightmarex. I noticed you ignored my question so I will ask it again.

Have you ever ganked before? I assume you've done lots of freighter ganking and know the ins and outs of the mechanics and such.

Can you please indulge us on your personal experience with ganking?

HTFU
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#593 - 2017-02-27 06:41:33 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.


Your non-answer is duly noted. You were claiming that 10 criminals jump into HS, and then fleet up. But it can't just be 10 random criminals can it. They might very well shoot each other as the freighter. It is your boneheaded assumptions that are the problem here.

The point is still that they can go in together by ganking something juicy and still be able to do that without any more consequences other than having to wait 15 mins.

It's that what we are talking about. And that 15 minute timer is the problem. It's way to short when you start to gank more and more.


unless you provide any evidence that the rate of ganked freighter compared to the freighters that travels to the jita pipe line and are on auto pilots are high, 15 mins are infact short and needs to be further reduced, i say to 2 mins for balance.

Just Add Water
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#594 - 2017-02-27 06:42:30 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Faylee Freir wrote:
Hi Nightmarex. I noticed you ignored my question so I will ask it again.

Have you ever ganked before? I assume you've done lots of freighter ganking and know the ins and outs of the mechanics and such.

Can you please indulge us on your personal experience with ganking?

I have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i'm pretty sure i know most mechanics in EVE. And to answer your question. Yes, i have been ganking stuffs (not telling you what i have been ganking though) sometimes since i started to play EVE. But the mechanics behind ganking is super easy to understand anyways, so you don't have to be a rocket scientists to understand the whole picture of it.

It's not hard to understand that a criminal should face harder and harder penalties the more crimes they do in empire, like it has been for every types of criminals done in real life where there are police deployed.
Nat Silverguard wrote:
unless you provide any evidence that the rate of ganked freighter compared to the freighters that travels to the jita pipe line and are on auto pilots are high, 15 mins are infact short and needs to be further reduced, i say to 2 mins for balance.

This has nothing to do with how many freighters that are ganked. It has ONLY to do with the consequences a ganker is facing for doing the same crimes over and over again with the current system that is the problem.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#595 - 2017-02-27 06:42:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
@ Faylee There's an epidemic of it.

I'm waiting for an answer to a question I asked 20 odd pages ago.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#596 - 2017-02-27 06:50:23 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.

There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic.

You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more.


Easy?

No, I don't agree because alot of work goes into ganking. There is a reason why Goons, et. al.decided to do another Burn Jita event weeks ago. They needed that time to pre-position assets to make Burn Jita feasible. Weeks.

You keep saying, "It is easy." And then offer a stupid "They just re-ship." Just so story. Well how did those ships get there? How did the modules and ammo get there? What about comms, FCs, scouts, bumpers, etc.

I'd call you a liar, but I think you are just simply totally clueless.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#597 - 2017-02-27 06:52:43 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Faylee Freir wrote:
Hi Nightmarex. I noticed you ignored my question so I will ask it again.

Have you ever ganked before? I assume you've done lots of freighter ganking and know the ins and outs of the mechanics and such.

Can you please indulge us on your personal experience with ganking?

I have been playing EVE since early 2004, so i'm pretty sure i know most mechanics in EVE.


Yada yada yada....what is your experience with ganking please?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#598 - 2017-02-27 06:53:46 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
No. They won't thought. Take 10 random -10's and it is not clear at all they'll fleet up. They might, but the chances are it won't happen. If 10 -10's who are part of the same group show up, they will likely fleet up. But that is an entirely different issue.

There is no evidence that ganking is endemic, let alone an epidemic.

You still get my point, even though you wont admit it that is way to easy to just keep ganking times after times when you have the ships ready in station. And my idea has to go towards each single players anyways. If you do a crime alone or if you do it with 120 others, it doesn't matter. You should get pusnished harder and harder for each players who commit crimes the more ganks or crimes you / they do. That's all that matters. Yes, what you do and what the consequences should be from that is what i'm talking about and nothing more.


Easy?

No, I don't agree because alot of work goes into ganking. There is a reason why Goons, et. al.decided to do another Burn Jita event weeks ago. They needed that time to pre-position assets to make Burn Jita feasible. Weeks.

You keep saying, "It is easy." And then offer a stupid "They just re-ship." Just so story. Well how did those ships get there? How did the modules and ammo get there? What about comms, FCs, scouts, bumpers, etc.

I'd call you a liar, but I think you are just simply totally clueless.

Again, logistics has nothing to do with what you do with the ships AFTER you have got them. How hard is this to understand?

I'm talking about the consequences you should face AFTER you have committed a crime / gank with your ships.

Yes, once you have started your ganking event or something, you will already have a butt load of them ready in station that you can just jump into and undock to gank another victim right away without getting any more consequences than the normal 15 minute Concord timer. Yey, such a hard task right there.

This is not hard to understand and you have to be incredible stupid to not understand that doing crimes out in space with a PVP fitted ship has nothing to do with the logistics behind getting a ship to a station.
Teckos Pech wrote:
Yada yada yada....what is your experience with ganking please?

I will tell you that when you can explain to me what a criminal is and how they should be treated.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#599 - 2017-02-27 06:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nat Silverguard
NightmareX wrote:

Nat Silverguard wrote:
unless you provide any evidence that the rate of ganked freighter compared to the freighters that travels to the jita pipe line and are on auto pilots are high, 15 mins are infact short and needs to be further reduced, i say to 2 mins for balance.

This has nothing to do with how many freighters that are ganked. It has ONLY to do with the consequences a ganker is facing for doing the same crimes over and over again with the current system that is the problem.


ok, so how much of this activity impact the whole freighting business, if not at all, to warrant a change?

take note, if you are making this change and it is not to address the frieghter ganking, then you can take this petition and shove it up your a**, we don't need this non-sense.

Just Add Water
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#600 - 2017-02-27 06:56:34 UTC
According to zkillboard NightmareX has killed 4 freighters and 1 jump freighter. Two of the freighters we killed in LS and 2 in HS, the two HS kills appear to be war decs. And the JF kill was clearly a HS war dec.

So, pretty much no ganking experience at all. None.

Now that that is settled....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online