These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#561 - 2017-02-27 02:35:45 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Karma Fleet - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - 75+bil in top 7 in last 7 days - + all the non-top 7 ganks.

Gimme Da Loot - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - These guys operate with Karma Fleet most of the time in Jita

Jason Kusion - https://zkillboard.com/character/95034355/ - Used to operate in Uedama mainly solo but since I started raping all his isk he moved to Jita to stage there.

All of these guys have centralized and stage from Jita V - Moon 17 station. Look at the history going back and you will see that their all day everyday ganking brings in xxx billions a week.


how is that a problem?

If it rakes in billions a week its only because freighter pilots are being dumb enough to put it in their cross hairs?
Who'll give me odds that he's counting the kill value as the amount the gankers get from the kill, and that he's ignoring that the 3 examples he's used have all have a multitude of mutual kills?




im not counting anything... links were asked for.
I beg to differ, you clearly stated 75+ bill for KarmaFleet in the last 7 days for their top 7 killers, where did that number come from?

Was it based on the total value of the kills or the value of the loot?

The loot being the one that matters, because that's where the 10's of billion a day in profit that you claim is being made comes from.


The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#562 - 2017-02-27 02:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Hpw did that ship get there?

I'll give you a clue, they have a logistics chain which provides, fits and distributes them, that logistics chain and all the associated activities that ensure the gankers can hop into a prefitted ship and on undock warp to preprovided safespots is where 95% of the effort involved in ganking is.

As I said, you can't see beyond the end of your nose.

This is about what you do as a criminal. Delivering ships somewhere is something everyone does all day long, so i'm not sure on why you takes that into the picture here when we are talking about the criminal activities some players are doing?

Not only that, but if you comes from Jita and then do the gankings, you will already have everything on market there. So no need for any logistics in that case.
Daichi Yamato wrote:
NightmareX wrote:

Yes, they do, because once they start their ganking, they will already have a million ships ready in hangar ready to be used once you have lost one ship. So all you have to do is to wait 15 minutes before you undock your next ship, and that's it. It shouldn't be that easy for criminals.


and all those ships have to be bought, hauled and fit.

Not if you comes from Jita like now with the Burn Jita event, duuuh.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#563 - 2017-02-27 02:36:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Lei YingLu wrote:
And you cant fly around HS in a Talos without having your sec status fixed.


But you can fly gank ships in highsec without fixing your status and that is the issue here.
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#564 - 2017-02-27 02:39:50 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
And you cant fly around HS in a Talos without having your sec status fixed.


But you can fly gank ships in highsec without fixing you status and that is the issue here.


Yes that may be true but you have to bring 3 times as many people to perform it as a result. And that is just the people that are doing DPS let alone the rest of the support fleet.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#565 - 2017-02-27 02:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Hpw did that ship get there?

I'll give you a clue, they have a logistics chain which provides, fits and distributes them, that logistics chain and all the associated activities that ensure the gankers can hop into a prefitted ship and on undock warp to preprovided safespots is where 95% of the effort involved in ganking is.

As I said, you can't see beyond the end of your nose.

This is about what you do as a criminal. Delivering ships somewhere is something everyone does all day long, so i'm not sure on why you takes that into the picture here when we are talking about the criminal activities some players are doing?

Not only that, but if you comes from Jita and then do the gankings, you will already have everything on market there. So no need for any logistics in that case.
Again, you miss the point.

You're claiming that ganking is too easy, when provided evidence as to what actually goes into organising a ganking operation, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

As for ganking in Jita, for the most part they ship the stuff in themselves, they already have a logistics chain in place, they have no need to pay over-inflated Jita market prices. The current operation in Jita took months of planning and coordination to organise.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#566 - 2017-02-27 02:46:58 UTC
Lei YingLu wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
And you cant fly around HS in a Talos without having your sec status fixed.


But you can fly gank ships in highsec without fixing you status and that is the issue here.


Yes that may be true but you have to bring 3 times as many people to perform it as a result. And that is just the people that are doing DPS let alone the rest of the support fleet.


I know you are goons so you can only have one type of public opinion on it... but I think you understand why the OP was made.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#567 - 2017-02-27 02:48:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Erich Einstein wrote:
The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.
I don't care about what the freighter pilot loses, their losses are the result of their choices.

The loot drop is where the profit is, you've claimed that people are earning 1-10 billion every 15 minutes, those earnings come from the loot. If your figure is based on the kill value then your figures for the earnings from ganking are inherently flawed.

So once again where did you get the figure of 75+ Billion for Karma Fleet? How much of it was loot, and how much are people earning from those kills?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#568 - 2017-02-27 02:54:00 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
And you cant fly around HS in a Talos without having your sec status fixed.


But you can fly gank ships in highsec without fixing you status and that is the issue here.


Yes that may be true but you have to bring 3 times as many people to perform it as a result. And that is just the people that are doing DPS let alone the rest of the support fleet.


I know you are goons so you can only have one type of public opinion on it... but I think you understand why the OP was made.


My opinions do not reflect that of my corp or my alliance. They are only my opinions as a player. This thread is a discussion in which I stated my opinions and you defended yours. The fact that I am a Goon does not mean that I HAVE to act, believe, or behave a certain way.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#569 - 2017-02-27 02:55:42 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
You're claiming that ganking is too easy, when provided evidence as to what actually goes into organising a ganking operation, you dismiss it because it doesn't suit your agenda.

As for ganking in Jita, for the most part they ship the stuff in themselves, they already have a logistics chain in place, they have no need to pay over-inflated Jita market prices. The current operation in Jita took months of planning and coordination to organise.

Ganking is easy once you have the ships in your hangar which is the whole point. The point is that you as a criminal can commit crimes / ganking way to easy once you have undocked. And on top of that continue to do that times after times without any more consequences.

Let's keep to the point instead of bringing in other things that hasn't anything to do with doing the actual crimes.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#570 - 2017-02-27 03:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
NightmareX wrote:
Ganking is easy once you have the ships in your hangar which is the whole point. The point is that you as a criminal can commit crimes / ganking way to easy once you have undocked. And on top of that continue to do that times after times without any more consequences.
Yet again, you can't see past your own agenda.

Quote:
Let's keep to the point instead of bringing in other things that hasn't anything to do with doing the actual crimes.
I am keeping to the point; what goes into organising a ganking operation has everything to do with your claim that ganking is too easy.

I get that the truth doesn't fit in with your agenda, fortunately you don't get to dictate the content of my posts.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#571 - 2017-02-27 03:21:53 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Yet again, you can't see past your own agenda.

Well, there is one problem with that argument. You haven't explained ANYTHING on why i'm wrong in what i'm saying here. I know it's dead easy to gank someone with small ships like a Destroyer once you have a fitted Destroyer ready to undock with. Everyone knows this. And this is what it's all about.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I am keeping to the point; what goes into organising a ganking operation has everything to do with your claim that ganking is too easy.

No you don't, because doing logistics has nothing to do with the actual crimes of ganking. It's the consequences of ganking i'm talking about.

Hauling ships somewhere has nothing to do with what a ganker does against someone.

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
I get that the truth doesn't fit in with your agenda, fortunately you don't get to dictate the content of my posts.

Well, you better start explaining your arguments to what i'm saying in the first place before you start to claim things like that towards me.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#572 - 2017-02-27 03:23:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lei YingLu
Redacted
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#573 - 2017-02-27 04:05:29 UTC
NightmareX wrote:


And no, I don't see the issue, because I am not at all convinced that ganking is a big problem.

Yeah, one dude / outlaw was just an example. Because if that gets applies to one outlaw, then every other outlaws will get affected by the same. So because of that, a bunch of gankers can't gank that easily anylonger after comitting crimes before (the same day).[/quote]

But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#574 - 2017-02-27 04:06:35 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
@OP
So using this weekend as I'm assuming that is mostly what you are referring to in relation to the post and comments. But for arguments sake, how many of those freighters that died this weekend were triple bulkhead fit?


Check my corp and twitch videos and see what I do on the daily. I by all means am excluding this past burn jita event from the OP. This goon ganking (and I mean big fleets, not little miner ganking) has gone on repeatedly for for the last few month. Sure there has always been ganking, but goons are taking it to a new level staging out of Jita V - moon 17 station. Nothing to do with burn jita event. I havnt even logged in since the burn Jita event started.

Look up all of the people who operate from that staging area on zkill and you will see just how much ganking isk they are getting away with. Follow them for a day and you will see just how hard it is to prevent anything they are doing. AG cant even prevent a freighter from being bumped without going criminal and just have to watch freighters burn to the ground like they are frigates.


If you wouldnt mind, could you please reference me to a few kills?


Karma Fleet - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - 75+bil in top 7 in last 7 days - + all the non-top 7 ganks.

Gimme Da Loot - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - These guys operate with Karma Fleet most of the time in Jita

Jason Kusion - https://zkillboard.com/character/95034355/ - Used to operate in Uedama mainly solo but since I started raping all his isk he moved to Jita to stage there.

All of these guys have centralized and stage from Jita V - Moon 17 station. Look at the history going back and you will see that their all day everyday ganking brings in xxx billions a week.

Just look at the 5.96t vs 14bil in losses.


Dude, you are aware Burn Jita is going one, right? As such freighter ganking stats are going to be incredibly biased. You are looking at an outlier FFS.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#575 - 2017-02-27 04:08:34 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Karma Fleet - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - 75+bil in top 7 in last 7 days - + all the non-top 7 ganks.

Gimme Da Loot - https://zkillboard.com/alliance/99006785/ - These guys operate with Karma Fleet most of the time in Jita

Jason Kusion - https://zkillboard.com/character/95034355/ - Used to operate in Uedama mainly solo but since I started raping all his isk he moved to Jita to stage there.

All of these guys have centralized and stage from Jita V - Moon 17 station. Look at the history going back and you will see that their all day everyday ganking brings in xxx billions a week.


how is that a problem?

If it rakes in billions a week its only because freighter pilots are being dumb enough to put it in their cross hairs?


STFU


A quality argument there.

And from the guy who appears to be totally clueless that Burn Jita has been going on for over 24 hours--i.e. your data is heavily influenced by an event that is aperiodic and hard to predict. What we in the statistics profession call and outlier.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#576 - 2017-02-27 04:13:11 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.


Derp-dee-derp-dee-derp.

The potential loot drop is what determines who gets ganked or not. So, 7 kills and 75 billion in loot. Let's subtract of 20 billion in hull value (and overestimate) which means that 55 million in loot. It means that on average, about 7.9 billion was in those ships of which 3.9 billion dropped in loot.

Now...why was that possible? It was possible because freighter pilots put about 7.9 billion worth cargo into their cargo hold.

If they had not done that, there would be nothing to post about.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#577 - 2017-02-27 04:35:24 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
But not all outlaws are going to fleet up with each other are they? You keep treating them as one monolithic group with the same set of goals with is totally daft and why everyone thinks your position is ridiculous.

A crime is still a crime no matter who does it and no matter where you do it in high sec. If one guy easily can gank one small ship in his Destroyer, then it can be as easy to gang up together to gank something much bigger and do the same crime over and over without any more consequences.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#578 - 2017-02-27 04:41:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


The loot drop is not what matter to those being ganked... Look at both sides.


Derp-dee-derp-dee-derp.

The potential loot drop is what determines who gets ganked or not. So, 7 kills and 75 billion in loot. Let's subtract of 20 billion in hull value (and overestimate) which means that 55 million in loot. It means that on average, about 7.9 billion was in those ships of which 3.9 billion dropped in loot.

Now...why was that possible? It was possible because freighter pilots put about 7.9 billion worth cargo into their cargo hold.

If they had not done that, there would be nothing to post about.



Lets just look at 5.9t vs 14bil.... and thats just karma fleet (burn jita events must be off the chain since this doesn't happen outside the burn jita events.)

Kusion: 9.48t vs 31bil - a solo gank pilot
Nat Silverguard
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#579 - 2017-02-27 05:24:41 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Imya Wormhole wrote:
I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him.
I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix".

Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences.

Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE.

Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today.


this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore...

CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.


Just Add Water
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#580 - 2017-02-27 05:46:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Nat Silverguard wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Imya Wormhole wrote:
I love how he is using the goons WWB background while complaining about goons ganking him.
I love how both the OP and NightmareX appear to be wholly ignorant of the mechanic that they're trying to "fix".

Says the guy who think doing crimes over and over again should not gain you more penalities or consequences.

Don't pretend to be a smart guy if you can't explain why there shouldn't be a system like that in EVE.

Oh i forgot. That's because you then can't do the risk free and no consequences ganking all day long as easily as you can do it today.


this mofos doesn't know the mechanics and lore...

CONCORD won't do what you or the OP suggest ever, they're only humans and are very much wary of us capsuleers. infact, they are already losing control, anymore intervention and impartiality will cause an all out war between capsuleers and they dont want that to happen. the only thing that holds this system is that us capsuleers are emphatic, if they make a move that will make capsuleers rally on to something against them is the time CONCORD dies.




Hence the edit in the OP: CONCORD -> Faction Police