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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#481 - 2017-02-27 01:08:59 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
No one is saying anyone should be locked out of high sec. We are only saying the criminals should get penalized harder the more crimes they do in high sec.

Is that so hard to understand?


Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

Quote:
This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly.


That would effectively lock them out.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#482 - 2017-02-27 01:09:17 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ganking doesnt happen anywhere near on the scale it used to.

Ganking miners used to be something everyone did, it used to be profitable. Now not so much. Freighter ganking used to be done by quite a few groups, but now there are only two of any significance. You use to be able to perform two ganks on two different grids with one ship by being aligned before concord showed up.

Maybe one nerf doesnt have a significant effect on ganking, but its quite evident to me that the multitude of nerfs ganking has suffered has had an affect.

-EHP buffs to both miners and freighters
-faster responses from concord
-Nerfs to ganking tactics like hyperdunking and warping away from concord
-Insurance removed
-Suspect timers as oppose to old aggression rules
-Kill rights becoming public

It has most certainly taken its toll, and we've lost players for it.


actually its grown quite alot. Just a few months ago it was mainly kusion wrecking in uedema. (Im not talking miner ganks) Now Goons have seriously scaled up in Jita V - moon 17 station and pull in double and occasionally triple digit billions daily.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#483 - 2017-02-27 01:09:21 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ganking doesnt happen anywhere near on the scale it used to.

Ganking miners used to be something everyone did, it used to be profitable. Now not so much. Freighter ganking used to be done by quite a few groups, but now there are only two of any significance. You use to be able to perform two ganks on two different grids with one ship by being aligned before concord showed up.

Maybe one nerf doesnt have a significant effect on ganking, but its quite evident to me that the multitude of nerfs ganking has suffered has had an affect.

-EHP buffs to both miners and freighters
-faster responses from concord
-Nerfs to ganking tactics like hyperdunking and warping away from concord
-Insurance removed
-Suspect timers as oppose to old aggression rules
-Kill rights becoming public

It has most certainly taken its toll, and we've lost players for it.

Do you have any evidences to prove that?

Remember that back in the days, there was WAAAAAY lesser peoples playing EVE. So you should rather look at the number of gankings / total players in EVE and then see on how the ganking today actually is compared to the old days.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#484 - 2017-02-27 01:09:27 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


We are glad its fun. OP has no intention of trying to end that fun, just fix the system to deal with out of control goon gank fleets.


Its precisely what you are trying to end, by making it such a chore to maintain that no one wants to do it.

Out of control? what does out of control even look like? Bearing in mind how much you've lied in this thread and everytime i ask you to link what makes you think its so bad you dont.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#485 - 2017-02-27 01:09:56 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category.

You didn't answer my question.


The answer is, "No." Everyone can have fun.

Again, do you think the freigher pilots is having fun knowing they can get ganked over and over all day long every 15 minutes because the criminals doesn't get harsher consequences / penalties the more crimes / ganking they do?


I think a player can have fun trying to avoid that fate, I know I do.

Like I said, it depends on your attitude.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#486 - 2017-02-27 01:10:29 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
Okay, I'll bite. Criminals in real life based off of the crime they commit are given a punishment of jail time based off of laws put in place. Every crime has a set standard punishment as far as minimum and maximum. This is very much the same in Eve. Eve has put down standard consequences based off of different crimes committed. Because the game doesn't treat podding someone like 1st degree murder is treated in real life doesn't mean that there are not consequences.


Ever heard of three strikes and you are out. This applies to repeat offenders. RL is not as generous as EVE. You can adjust the hit you take for podding in lowsec along with the OP, I have no problem with that. But technically, you shouldnt be podding in lowsec if you dont want to hurt your security status.


Maybe because it is a game and meant to be fun. Well if you have the right attitude.

So the game can only be fun for the gankers?

Do you think it's fun for the freighter pilots who basicly can die every 15 minutes to some ganking because there is no system in EVE that gives the gankers more penalty the more they gank?


There is more penalty, the lower my sec status goes, the less area's that I can go with out being hunted by Faction Police and eventually being able to be freely attacked anywhere in the game by everyone. This is all in addition to the kill rights that people receive and have every opportunity for a period of 30 days to hunt my ass down and kill me. The more people I kill the more of those I have as well. My point is and was in the quote portion earlier is that there are set consequences just like there is in real life that you keep trying to compare this to.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#487 - 2017-02-27 01:11:34 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

If their crimes have been done in low sec, things should be like it is now. Nothing is needed to be changed there. We are however talking about the crimes you have done in HIGH SEC.

Then it will be something else.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#488 - 2017-02-27 01:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Wander Prian
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

If their crimes have been done in low sec, things should be like it is now. Nothing is needed to be changed there. We are however talking about the crimes you have done in HIGH SEC.

Then it will be something else.


Last I checked, it was about criminals in general. Nowhere does it state it only applies to crimes commited in highsec. That would basically make 2 different kinds of criminals, while both would have the same standing. Which would mean a special-case coding, which is terribly crude and CCP doesn't like doing that, meaning not gonna happen (This is just a "what if" since I've yet to see zero proof of this "issue")

Wormholer for life.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#489 - 2017-02-27 01:12:37 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category.

You didn't answer my question.


The answer is, "No." Everyone can have fun.

Again, do you think the freigher pilots is having fun knowing they can get ganked over and over all day long every 15 minutes because the criminals doesn't get harsher consequences / penalties the more crimes / ganking they do?
If the freighter pilot is actually playing the game being hunted can be as much fun as being the hunter.

Denying gankers the opportunity for fun at your expense by virtue of the choices you make is fun.


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#490 - 2017-02-27 01:12:59 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
No one is saying anyone should be locked out of high sec. We are only saying the criminals should get penalized harder the more crimes they do in high sec.

Is that so hard to understand?


Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

Quote:
This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly.


That would effectively lock them out.


no it would not. It would require them to lower their security status between ganks so that they stayed within the given systems phase one limit. This means spending some of the gank isk on repair tags and mabye even some mission running / rat killing. Obviously tags would be the easiest way. The economic tag availability would control the gank abilities and keep it honest.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#491 - 2017-02-27 01:13:17 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@Nightmare
Making ganking more difficult and more punishable makes ganking less frequent, which is bad.

It doesn't. You all said the same thing last time ganking was nerfed where Concord doesn't pay out insurance to gankers anylonger. But what did happen?

Yes, they did keep going as nothing had happened. Same will be here. All that will be different is that you have to be more clever and more smart to be able to keep doing the ganking after your first ganking and so on as the consequences will be harder the more you gank.


Got any numbers to support that. I don't think I said it wouldn't reduce ganking. I pointed out it gave rise to professional ganking and yet here we are again with Bads™ asking for "one more nerf and it will be balanced."


Yeah, balance it, not take the fun out of it. They have shown that you can over-eat all day long in highsec and no one in your corp ever has to pay for a sub again. Let the chump freighter pilots pay for it. Even at only hauling a bil max in a freighter, there is plenty of profit to be made when you do it after each 15min timer.


You are not talking about something that can be balanced. You can't fix stupid. If a player does something stupid there is a good chance they'll suffer the consequences. It has happened to all of us.

And I have a freighter/JF alt, so it is not like I'm not out there taking these risks too, I just minimize/manage them.

And would stop bringing up the loot drops/ISK side? You get so prissy and whiny whenever somebody points out it is the result of imprudent players and something CCP should and probably cannot do anything about.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#492 - 2017-02-27 01:14:06 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

Do you have any evidences to prove that?

Remember that back in the days, there was WAAAAAY lesser peoples playing EVE. So you should rather look at the number of gankings / total players in EVE and then see on how the ganking today actually is compared to the old days.


Erm, yeah, so less players but more ganking = more ganking per player.

Yeah i could quickly prove that my barge has taken more shots in previous years than this last few, and given more time could use zkill to see how many freighters die in this last year compared to previous.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#493 - 2017-02-27 01:14:10 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Like I said if you have the right attitude. Obviously you seem to be deficient in that category.

You didn't answer my question.


The answer is, "No." Everyone can have fun.

Again, do you think the freigher pilots is having fun knowing they can get ganked over and over all day long every 15 minutes because the criminals doesn't get harsher consequences / penalties the more crimes / ganking they do?
If the freighter pilot is actually playing the game being hunted can be as much fun as being the hunter.

Denying gankers the opportunity for fun at your expense by virtue of the choices you make is fun.




Yeah, spot me like 10 bil then so that I can enjoy some content.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#494 - 2017-02-27 01:14:31 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
No one is saying anyone should be locked out of high sec. We are only saying the criminals should get penalized harder the more crimes they do in high sec.

Is that so hard to understand?


Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

Quote:
This second phase of aggression would consist of stations and jump gates instantly webbing and warp-disrupting while CONCORD moves in. This prevents serial criminals from freely moving through highsec and also prevent gank fleets from staging in highsec systems unless they control their security status correctly.


That would effectively lock them out.


no it would not. It would require them to lower their security status between ganks so that they stayed within the given systems phase one limit. This means spending some of the gank isk on repair tags and mabye even some mission running / rat killing. Obviously tags would be the easiest way. The economic tag availability would control the gank abilities and keep it honest.


Then they aren't criminals then are they. So you would effectively lock out criminals...until they are no long criminals.

Jesus, you are amazingly dishonest.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#495 - 2017-02-27 01:15:15 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Lei YingLu wrote:
There is more penalty, the lower my sec status goes, the less area's that I can go with out being hunted by Faction Police and eventually being able to be freely attacked anywhere in the game by everyone. This is all in addition to the kill rights that people receive and have every opportunity for a period of 30 days to hunt my ass down and kill me. The more people I kill the more of those I have as well. My point is and was in the quote portion earlier is that there are set consequences just like there is in real life that you keep trying to compare this to.

Ehh ok?

You can still fly around in high sec in a Destroyer with a -10 sec status. All you have to make sure is that no one tackles you before you enters warp. But that's relatively easy to avoid.

The fact is that if you are categotized as an outlaw (-5 or lower), you shouldn't be able to be sitting in a ship (except for a Shuttle) while being in high sec. Yes, you have to use an alt or other friends to be able to get your newly bought ships out of Jita or high sec in the same way as freighter pilots have to use a bunch of alt or friends all the time according to you to be able to do their business. So don't you think it would be fair that way towards the gankers to that they will need alts or others to be able to keep doing their crimes in high sec with new ships and so on?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#496 - 2017-02-27 01:16:59 UTC
Wander Prian wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Not true. What if one commits their criminal acts in LS? You want to effectively lock them out too. And maybe you should re-read the OP.

If their crimes have been done in low sec, things should be like it is now. Nothing is needed to be changed there. We are however talking about the crimes you have done in HIGH SEC.

Then it will be something else.


Last I checked, it was about criminals in general. Nowhere does it state it only applies to crimes commited in highsec. That would basically make 2 different kinds of criminals, while both would have the same standing. Which would mean a special-case coding, which is terribly crude and CCP doesn't like doing that, meaning not gonna happen (This is just a "what if" since I've yet to see zero proof of this "issue")


Crimes are crimes if the system you are in says they are crimes. Although pirating in lowsec is a popular thing to do, the game wants to discourage your from podding in lowsec and attacking people unless you have reason to on gates and stations.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#497 - 2017-02-27 01:17:10 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Erm, yeah, so less players but more ganking = more ganking per player.

Yeah i could quickly prove that my barge has taken more shots in previous years than this last few, and given more time could use zkill to see how many freighters die in this last year compared to previous.

Again, where is the proof on your claims?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#498 - 2017-02-27 01:17:29 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Ganking doesnt happen anywhere near on the scale it used to.

Ganking miners used to be something everyone did, it used to be profitable. Now not so much. Freighter ganking used to be done by quite a few groups, but now there are only two of any significance. You use to be able to perform two ganks on two different grids with one ship by being aligned before concord showed up.

Maybe one nerf doesnt have a significant effect on ganking, but its quite evident to me that the multitude of nerfs ganking has suffered has had an affect.

-EHP buffs to both miners and freighters
-faster responses from concord
-Nerfs to ganking tactics like hyperdunking and warping away from concord
-Insurance removed
-Suspect timers as oppose to old aggression rules
-Kill rights becoming public

It has most certainly taken its toll, and we've lost players for it.


actually its grown quite alot. Just a few months ago it was mainly kusion wrecking in uedema. (Im not talking miner ganks) Now Goons have seriously scaled up in Jita V - moon 17 station and pull in double and occasionally triple digit billions daily.


Nope. Miniluv has been around for quite awhile. Years in fact. And the rule of thumb for Goons appears to be: 6 billion or more--gank it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#499 - 2017-02-27 01:18:30 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Remember that back in the days, there was WAAAAAY lesser peoples playing EVE. So you should rather look at the number of gankings / total players in EVE and then see on how the ganking today actually is compared to the old days.
You're misrepresenting the facts.

The period covering 2008 to 2014 would beg to differ, online numbers were higher then than they have been in the period since, only with the introduction of Alpha clones have the numbers jumped back to similar levels.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#500 - 2017-02-27 01:18:53 UTC
Lei YingLu wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
Okay, I'll bite. Criminals in real life based off of the crime they commit are given a punishment of jail time based off of laws put in place. Every crime has a set standard punishment as far as minimum and maximum. This is very much the same in Eve. Eve has put down standard consequences based off of different crimes committed. Because the game doesn't treat podding someone like 1st degree murder is treated in real life doesn't mean that there are not consequences.


Ever heard of three strikes and you are out. This applies to repeat offenders. RL is not as generous as EVE. You can adjust the hit you take for podding in lowsec along with the OP, I have no problem with that. But technically, you shouldnt be podding in lowsec if you dont want to hurt your security status.


Maybe because it is a game and meant to be fun. Well if you have the right attitude.

So the game can only be fun for the gankers?

Do you think it's fun for the freighter pilots who basicly can die every 15 minutes to some ganking because there is no system in EVE that gives the gankers more penalty the more they gank?


There is more penalty, the lower my sec status goes, the less area's that I can go with out being hunted by Faction Police and eventually being able to be freely attacked anywhere in the game by everyone. This is all in addition to the kill rights that people receive and have every opportunity for a period of 30 days to hunt my ass down and kill me. The more people I kill the more of those I have as well. My point is and was in the quote portion earlier is that there are set consequences just like there is in real life that you keep trying to compare this to.


Sure, for the average pilot it sounds like enough, but for a career ganker, those things mean nothing to them. None of that stuff bothers their agenda one bit.