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High Sec Ganking - CONCORD Balance request

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Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2017-02-27 00:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Okay, let me help you here, although it probably won’t make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.

What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the “economic void” that his competition has created by having half is stuff go “poof” in a ball of fire.

This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, “Of human action, but not of human design.” The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.

Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce Jonah’s opportunities too.


Except this is wrong, because people will still gank under the OP proposed changes. Gankers just have to keep thier security status in check to be effective highsec gankers.


I didn't write they would stop ganking, I wrote 'reduce'.

Do you need a link to a dictionary website?

If you reduce the ganking you reduce Jonah's opportunities.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#422 - 2017-02-27 00:28:58 UTC
Ive actually looked at youtube, still looking in fact. No solo ganks.

Do you have a link?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#423 - 2017-02-27 00:29:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Daichi is not a ganker. Nor am I really. I did it as part of Burn Jita events, but outside of that...not really.

I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that.


Nope. And how would i prove it. I can link every char i have and you'd still try to claim that i'm hiding just one more account. So whats the point?

Your logic is to say that anyone who doesnt want ganking nerfed MUST be a ganker. And you wonder why we cant take you seriously enough to reply to your posts?

We've been very gracious replying to your senseless tripe this far. I honestly don't mind if you can argue your case but i dont think youre even trying.

Endless ganking ruins the game - How? Can you show us this somehow? Because apparently less than 1% of players leaving the game claim ship loss to be the reason. The vast majority of players leaving seemingly do so out of boredom/lack of engagement.

Real Life - Is a good guide everynow and then. But only when backed up with gameplay, other wide CONCORD shouldnt be omnipotent. So what gameplay benefits will come from preventing endless ganking loops?


We've asked you this, but you dont really respond to these points. Still wondering why i want to ignore you?

Well, you haven't explained to me why criminals in EVE shouldn't be treated like criminals though. So if you can't answer that simple question, then don't expect anyone else to answer your questions.

Maybe you should do a google search of what a criminal is and how they are treated by the law enforcement before you claim to know how a criminal is supposed to be?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#424 - 2017-02-27 00:29:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.


I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced.


How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec. For gankers, this is everything you could have ever wanted.


Because that is not the cap for criminals. The players have the tools to deal with people with low enough security status in highsec, without CONCORD-response. It's just that they CHOOSE not to do anything.

Eve is set up in such a way that the players are supposed to be the worst enemy, not NPC's.

Again, show me proof that there is something unbalanced. So far all I've seen is " I don't want to use the tools that CCP gave me, CCPLS, nerf criminals."


Its not worth it to boat around a svipul fleet that matches the size of goons ganks squad just to protect your lonely freighter who is trying to make 10mil isk per contract. Nor should that many people be required to show so much attention to one freighter. People want to play other aspects of the game. By that standard, only large corps are allowed to move freighter loads.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#425 - 2017-02-27 00:30:53 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


Its not worth it to boat around a svipul fleet that matches the size of goons ganks squad just to protect your lonely freighter who is trying to make 10mil isk per contract.


Good thing you don't need too. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Lei YingLu
Designated Drivers
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#426 - 2017-02-27 00:31:01 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
If a mouse is given a cookie, he is bound to want some milk. If he is given the milk, what will he want next?

Quoted from a children's book. The problem being that yes say some or everything you want at the point in time CCP implements. Even after that people will be still crying for nerfs to ganking until ganking is no longer able to be performed in HS. Only then will people stop crying about ganking.


Sorry, I agree with ganking... but yet im the OP owner... weird.


I wasnt talking about you more as the game as a whole. If CCP was going to grant your wish of how ganking mechanics should be, they'd have to listen to the next guy right? Then that guy is going to want even more stringent controls on ganking until it is no longer a thing. There is always someone who's not going to like something and want the game to be changed to suit their needs/wishes. I respect the fact that you didnt request an outright ban on ganking. As far as the Alpha clones not being able to do so I dont agree. I think that they should be able to enjoy every different style of play in the game. Now do I think that an Alpha should be able to sit on the Jita undock with a tornado? No.
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#427 - 2017-02-27 00:31:37 UTC  |  Edited by: NightmareX
Teckos Pech wrote:
It doen't matter, you'll just claim I have a fourth or fifth account....short of giving you access to my credit card account, and even then you'll likely say I have yet another account with yet another credit card.

Nope. So knock of this childish bullshit, it is just making you look like an idiot.

As you don't know the definition of what a criminal is and how they are supposed to be treated and because the way you are against a system like this that is logic by human nature to treat criminals, then i do believe you infact are a massive ganker with an alt that doesn't want to have a harder time for doing the crimes over and over.

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#428 - 2017-02-27 00:32:52 UTC
NightmareX wrote:

Well, you haven't explained to me why criminals in EVE shouldn't be treated like criminals though. So if you can't answer that simple question, then don't expect anyone else to answer your questions.

Maybe you should do a google search of what a criminal is and how they are treated by the law enforcement before you claim to know how a criminal is supposed to be?



If you have a 0 or positive sec status can anyone shoot you without a CONCORD response? No.

Can you shoot a -10 without a CONCORD response? Yes.

You are factually wrong.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#429 - 2017-02-27 00:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Erich Einstein
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.


I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced.


How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec.


No you can't.

Go get a -10 sec status and try flying a battle ship or a freighter around HS.


Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#430 - 2017-02-27 00:34:25 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
It doen't matter, you'll just claim I have a fourth or fifth account....short of giving you access to my credit card account, and even then you'll likely say I have yet another account with yet another credit card.

Nope. So knock of this childish bullshit, it is just making you look like an idiot.

As you don't know the definition of what a criminal is and how they are supposed to be treated and because the way you are against a system like this that is logic by human nature to treat criminals, then i do believe you infact are a massive ganker with an alt that doesn't want to have a harder time for doing the crimes over and over.


I am quite well aware of what it means to have a -9 sec status as I had that level a sec status until recently.

I had to fly around in travel ceptors, shuttles and my pod.

And if I lingered anyone could shoot me.

You are the one factually wrong here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#431 - 2017-02-27 00:34:30 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
NightmareX wrote:


EDIT: And if you are not a ganker, then why are you so much against treating criminals like actual criminals then?


He has an interest in what is good for the overall game, not his own personal agenda.

And you think it's good overall for the game to let the players who get suicided over and over and over every 15 mins see that the criminals doesn't get punished harder for continuing the criminal activities where they just freely can do that without any risks for them?


They do get punished. They lose their ship every time and gankers have no guarantee that they'll be paid. They lose sec status.

Its good for the overall game that they are still allowed to operate in hi-sec yeah. Because ganking is good for the game. MORE ganking would be good for the game for the reasons i put forward a few pages back.

You have yet to tell me how the current situation is bad for the game. Unrealistic perhaps, but so are many things in this game. Is there a gameplay reason the current situation is so bad?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#432 - 2017-02-27 00:35:20 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.


I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced.


How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec.


No you can't.

Go get a -10 sec status and try flying a battle ship or a freighter around HS.


Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.


They are only a threat when in a group. Which is also a restriction.

You keep saying this like it is some sort of rampant problem. It isn't a problem.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#433 - 2017-02-27 00:35:42 UTC
NightmareX wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
NightmareX wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Daichi is not a ganker. Nor am I really. I did it as part of Burn Jita events, but outside of that...not really.

I'm pretty sure you all here have alt's who does that day in and out and are using the excuse that you don't do it with one character. I'm not flat out stupid if you think i'am that.


Nope. And how would i prove it. I can link every char i have and you'd still try to claim that i'm hiding just one more account. So whats the point?

Your logic is to say that anyone who doesnt want ganking nerfed MUST be a ganker. And you wonder why we cant take you seriously enough to reply to your posts?

We've been very gracious replying to your senseless tripe this far. I honestly don't mind if you can argue your case but i dont think youre even trying.

Endless ganking ruins the game - How? Can you show us this somehow? Because apparently less than 1% of players leaving the game claim ship loss to be the reason. The vast majority of players leaving seemingly do so out of boredom/lack of engagement.

Real Life - Is a good guide everynow and then. But only when backed up with gameplay, other wide CONCORD shouldnt be omnipotent. So what gameplay benefits will come from preventing endless ganking loops?


We've asked you this, but you dont really respond to these points. Still wondering why i want to ignore you?

Well, you haven't explained to me why criminals in EVE shouldn't be treated like criminals though. So if you can't answer that simple question, then don't expect anyone else to answer your questions.

Maybe you should do a google search of what a criminal is and how they are treated by the law enforcement before you claim to know how a criminal is supposed to be?


You do know this is a game? Certain things are different in here, that you wouldn't do in real life. I doubt you would be going around shooting people in the face in real life, just to have fun.

Fun gameplay > copying real life.

Wormholer for life.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#434 - 2017-02-27 00:35:56 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:


Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.


They can barely get through with a destroyer...but why is that so bad?

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#435 - 2017-02-27 00:36:56 UTC
Lei YingLu wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Lei YingLu wrote:
If a mouse is given a cookie, he is bound to want some milk. If he is given the milk, what will he want next?

Quoted from a children's book. The problem being that yes say some or everything you want at the point in time CCP implements. Even after that people will be still crying for nerfs to ganking until ganking is no longer able to be performed in HS. Only then will people stop crying about ganking.


Sorry, I agree with ganking... but yet im the OP owner... weird.


I wasnt talking about you more as the game as a whole. If CCP was going to grant your wish of how ganking mechanics should be, they'd have to listen to the next guy right? Then that guy is going to want even more stringent controls on ganking until it is no longer a thing. There is always someone who's not going to like something and want the game to be changed to suit their needs/wishes. I respect the fact that you didnt request an outright ban on ganking. As far as the Alpha clones not being able to do so I dont agree. I think that they should be able to enjoy every different style of play in the game. Now do I think that an Alpha should be able to sit on the Jita undock with a tornado? No.


Wait, wait....are you talking about incentives...perverse incentives?!?! And rent seeking?

In my EVE? No wai! P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Wander Prian
Nosferatu Security Foundation
#436 - 2017-02-27 00:37:18 UTC
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Wander Prian wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


I'd be happy too, but why dont I just tell you. I have this toon which swoops the **** out of loot all over the map. I have a pvp toon that actively contributes to gank efforts, and a third toon that runs and owns citadels. I dont play favorites, but I also realize that game mechanics are not perfect and need to be fixed when they are abused or dont work effectively in preventing unbalanced gameplay.


I've yet to see any kind of proof of that unbalanced gameplay. All I see is your opinions that something is unbalanced.


How is the fact that criminal behavior is capped at faction police chasing you not proof. Once you get to this point, you can do whatever you want as a criminal without ever really being killed until you want to be killed in highsec.


No you can't.

Go get a -10 sec status and try flying a battle ship or a freighter around HS.


Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.


You keep saying that you are talking about criminals and ganking has nothing to do with it, yet you keep using gankers as your proof that something needs to be done about criminals... There are other reasons for players getting a low security status, not just ganking.

Wormholer for life.
Erich Einstein
Swoop Salvage
#437 - 2017-02-27 00:37:28 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Okay, let me help you here, although it probably won’t make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.

What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the “economic void” that his competition has created by having half is stuff go “poof” in a ball of fire.

This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, “Of human action, but not of human design.” The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.

Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce Jonah’s opportunities too.


Except this is wrong, because people will still gank under the OP proposed changes. Gankers just have to keep thier security status in check to be effective highsec gankers.


I didn't write they would stop ganking, I wrote 'reduce'.

Do you need a link to a dictionary website?

If you reduce the ganking you reduce Jonah's opportunities.

Yeah maybe if Jonah is ignorant to history and his surroundings. Not everyone is a mindless sheep.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#438 - 2017-02-27 00:38:33 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:


Yeah, but its not strict enough. You should only be able to fly a pod or shuttle in highsec with a -10.0 status, not a potential gank ships. Lower your security status and you get to fly bigger and bigger ships. Its called being accountable for your criminal activity.


They can barely get through with a destroyer...but why is that so bad?


And then the only way to gank is to be in a group. Kusion uses alts, but to PLEX that many accounts, my God it sounds like a damn job.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#439 - 2017-02-27 00:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Erich Einstein wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:


Okay, let me help you here, although it probably won’t make much effort...but maybe it will make sense down the road or to someone else.

What Jonah is saying is that making it difficult for people to just dump tons of stuff into a freighter and haul it around it creates opportunities for Jonah. Jonah can exploit this by being prudent. While his competition is getting his freighter ganked and half his stuff scooped, Jonah can either buy that stuff from the gankers or he can step in and fill the “economic void” that his competition has created by having half is stuff go “poof” in a ball of fire.

This is an example of emergence. Something coming about without somebody intending it to come about. As Adam Ferguson, the Scottish Enlightenment Philosopher, put it, “Of human action, but not of human design.” The gankers were not intending to create this opportunity for Jonah, but they did.

Take away or reduce the ganking and you reduce Jonah’s opportunities too.


Except this is wrong, because people will still gank under the OP proposed changes. Gankers just have to keep thier security status in check to be effective highsec gankers.


I didn't write they would stop ganking, I wrote 'reduce'.

Do you need a link to a dictionary website?

If you reduce the ganking you reduce Jonah's opportunities.

Yeah maybe if Jonah is ignorant to history and his surroundings. Not everyone is a mindless sheep.


Wat™? That does not even make sense given what I wrote.

Man talk about pearls before swine.....

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
NightmareX
Pandemic Horde High Sec Division
#440 - 2017-02-27 00:42:17 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
If you have a 0 or positive sec status can anyone shoot you without a CONCORD response? No.

Can you shoot a -10 without a CONCORD response? Yes.

You are factually wrong.

If you have 0 in sec status, nothing will happen from the faction police. If you however do a gank / suicide against someone, then Concord will first kill you and give you a 15 minute timer. Everything here is normal.

Next gank you do, you will get a 1 hour timer from Concord. And everything here is still normal except that you will get a longer Concord timer for each gank you do. And so on until you will get locked out from entering high sec in a ship except for a shuttle for a whole day. Yeah, let's say you can do 4-5 ganks every day before you get locked out from entering high sec in a ship except for a Shuttle.

And if you do the gankings that lowers your security status, then the faction police should be much harder against you the lower your security status is. Because of that, you have to work for your security status to be able to avoid an evantually brutal faction police.

The whole point is that you shouldn't be able to enter high sec in a fitted ship, or a ship (except for a Shuttle) at all if you have a low enough security status to begin with. Yes, if freighter pilots have to use a bunch of alt or others to be able to do their business, then you should also be forced to use alts or other friends to get a new ship that you have bought in Jita out of Jita to be able to continue doing your ganks.

Doesn't that sounds fair?

Here is a list of my current EVE / PVP videos:

1: Asteroid Madness

2: Clash of the Empires

3: Suddenly Spaceships fighting in Tama