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[March] Rorqual and Mining changes

First post First post First post
Grognard Commissar
Goonswarm Federation
#301 - 2017-02-24 05:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Grognard Commissar
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Grognard Commissar wrote:
out of control? how so? i'd posit that relatively cheap capitals are good for the game. the only reason the market is crashing, is because the belts are not balanced with the consumption

Grognard Commissar wrote:
they'll never stop the slide, until they fix it so that all the minerals get used. they can nerf mining into the ground, not going to fix it at all.

also, keep ion mind that the (fitted) rorqual costs as much as 4 (fitted) ratting carriers... and is locked in place for 5 minutes

See above link for the graph on Pyrite prices. The same thing is happening to Tritanium, Isogen, Nocxium, and Morphite. The only reason that Megacyte, Zydrine, and Mexallon spiked after the initial jump was because the impact on all the other more readily available minerals was more immediate. Now that supply is truly starting to out strip demand on even those we're starting to see all of them slide as well, with Mexallon being the last because the primary ores for getting it didn't used to be as valuable as the ABCs but right now it's become a bottle neck.

The reason the market is crashing is because of Rorqual mining. Rorquals and their absurd m3 per minute have created a massive influx of minerals into the market that's massive out stripped demand. CCP can't magically make players consume more minerals, so they have to arrest the supply by nerfing the Rorqual.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't really matter how much a Rorqual costs if they aren't dying, and right now they really aren't, at least not with nearly enough frequency to come close to offsetting the volume of minerals they mine.

Gamble Aces wrote:
Here's my tinfoil hat theory.

CCP gives zero fucks about the mineral market. CCP has lost a shitload of subs because people that previously had 10-12 accounts mining now have 1-3 accounts. Now they think by nerfing rorquals and buffing barges all these people will pay their subs again.

Lol, no. Just look at this thread or go talk to some miners. All the miners with 10 subs started training them for Rorquals as fast as they could.

If anyone was going to un-sub over the present state of the Rorqual it's the smaller High Sec miners that are watching their chances of making a PLEX each month disappear with the falling price of Trit.

I'm getting the feeling that you're a station trader, with zero experience in nullsec inductry, or general sovnull operations.

we don't care about the jita price, the only minerals we export here, is morphite, because we get wayyy more than we can use. the rest of everythign we mine goes straight via contract to the builders that make caps. a bit gets used for other stuff, because, in nullsec, it's usually easier to just build everything.

also, look at your numbers, trit is falling, but mex is actually going up. that's because of the mineral imbalance
Arthur Aihaken
#302 - 2017-02-24 05:09:11 UTC
When's the riot scheduled for?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Grognard Commissar
Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2017-02-24 05:11:36 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
When's the riot scheduled for?

nah, miners don't riot, we simply stop mining
Bag ol' Dciks
#304 - 2017-02-24 06:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aleverette
"It is also gaining massive bonuses to drones that turn it into a combat powerhouse and a mining operation all ON ITS OWN when used alongside Excavator Drones." quote from your old mining foreman revolution dev blog.

You see the problem? It is not players who only own one or two Rorquals, but the multi boxing Rorqual mining fleet (seriously, there is a 30+ multi boxing Rorqual guy live with me in the same system). You did not turn Rorqual into a mining carrier, instead, you turned it into a super large Exhumer.

I feel the way to make Rorqual right is making it function differently in different players' hands. ADD MINING FIGHTER SYSTEM ASAP, let Rorqual be a powerful solo mining ship to normal players and a fleet boost/PANIC protector to ultra multi-boxing "industrial imperialists" exhumer fleet.
Or simply divide Rorqual into two ships, one specialized in fleet boost and can use the nerfed-version excavator drones to mine; meanwhile the other variant can perform much better solo mining operation and use fighter system.

The old mining fighter idea is really awsome, why you abandoned it? If you think what you have done to carriers back to Citadel release was right, then do the same thing to Rorqual.

BTW just ask players for subs is better than these kinds of GIVE YOU A CAKE AND TAKE IT AWAY BULLSHIT

BBTW If you guys choose to nerf Rorqual exactly as the thread says, rename "Excavator Mining Drone" to "Transverse Radioactive Integrated Gravitational Gliding Effective Responding Excavator Drone"
Millerz Magnum
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#305 - 2017-02-24 06:17:59 UTC
No no nononono no no no no no no

Every FIN time CCP, every time you nerf hammer. How did you not expect them to be used as tackle when you didn't disable their ability to engage hostile actions while in PANIC is beyond me. This either means you are simple minded or you don't do nearly enough testing, and probably should Sell CCP like your looking to do.

However angry I may be, I can reasonable agree that they should not be able to engage hostiles in any manner (but should be able to rr friendlies.). This can be solved two ways, one is disallowing aggressive action with the panic module. Another is to hit the nail on the head, and make the rorq the first ship in eve that cannot fit any type of point entirely. Both ways eliminate the combat problem.

I also do agree with entosis bs, however that is easily solved by not letting them fit an entosis module. Even disallow all the possible PANIC saved hulls to fit it as well, solved.

Your then left with the god cyno, and I think after the above two suggestions are preformed, it wont matter, atleast not nearly as much. If they cannot tackle, and cannot entosis, the main use of the cyno will be to save their own skin, and you cant take that away from them.

I do not agree with making them have to lock a rock to panic. Its just plain stupid. They are only 80% immune to ewar in "siege", like all caps, and a falcon or a few griffs will be the Achilles heal of the rorq. Not only will they not be able to PANIC once engaged, but will become the easiest killed capital with the strongest useless tanking ability.

So take away their combat abilities, but do not nerf where panic can be activated.

Also disagree with more min nerfs. F off with the nerfs, but FIX your stupidly planned out module.
Advenat Bedala
#306 - 2017-02-24 06:30:59 UTC
Quick idea:

Make PANIC consume locked asteroid(s). Not for mining nerf but for lore reasons...
Having almost self-focused module need to lock something without affecting this something is counter-intuitive.

Maybe it should affect PANIC's duration.
20 seconds or so for 0 asteroids (Like emergency damage control)
1-2 minutes extra for each locked asteroid

PS anyway I cannot hope this post will be seen by devs =)
Barry Ryan
Dyslexics Are Teople POO
#307 - 2017-02-24 06:42:14 UTC
I love Eve online. But what a ******* joke CCP is atm
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#308 - 2017-02-24 06:44:02 UTC
CCP, if you enforce these changes alive you should cover everyone investments what players have done to get into rorquals. You just cant turn something "great" with small period time back where they was before. Sounds like you have given to your players false expectations.

Umino Iruka
#309 - 2017-02-24 07:00:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Umino Iruka
This has nothing to do with rorquals mining too much.

THIS, is CCP's laziness and stupid game design coming back to bite us all in the ass!

The first obvious thing here is the mexallon bottleneck and nothing being done about it. The gneiss roids deplete over 3 times faster than ABC's and spodumain - fix the damn thing already and keep an eye on arkonor and bistot so we don't face the same bottleneck in megacyte.

The second, and perhaps more important problem here are mineral sinks. You remember those idiotic 20bil dreads, 75bil supers and 265bil titans (production costs) that no one really wants? Well guess what? Those could have been an amazing mineral sink if they were affordable enough to go mainstream. If they all cost double what their t1 counterparts cost, everyone would want one (having all types of pirate capitals available would help immensely as well - pirate carriers anyone?) and the gears of industry would turn once again. None of that would matter of course, if their blueprints aren't readily available in the game as well.

Structures could have had their mineral requirements increased as well to help with spending minerals - destruction of those could have helped a lot as well, but as it stands, citadels only managed to screw the small groups with their extra reinforcement timers and not being vulnerable to dread bombs like POS's and if the trend continues and drilling platforms get the same dps cap mechanic and another reinforcement timer, the only thing that's gonna increase is the rate of burnt out players in the game (maybe we could all turn to alpha clones and forget this end-game foolishness instead?).

So what could be done about all this? It would take CCP getting off their lazy asses and actually producing something for a change. The current rate of releasing pirate caps means all the pirate factions will get covered by the end of this decade (not if they want to do mordu's boyz, sisters and rogue drones as well - in that case, add another 2 years to the road map for pirate caps).

Let's not forget that all the models for these pirate caps (it's probably more correct to say skins rather than models but whatever) are already done, all it takes is giving them some traits and releasing them - even though the laziness goes so far that we aren't even getting all of the capital types on each pirate faction...

And what is the intended fix for this laziness? Forget for a moment that the rorqual never did anything for lowsec people because mining is a complete waste of time in low. So now the 11bil mining capital is being dumbed down to the level of a sanctum running carrier in null - I mean, CCP obviously wants people out of hisec and in low and null/wh, but it would be a real travesty if a capital miner in null is making more money than a hisec incursion F1 monkey.

Also....0 max locked targets at PANIC activation fixes all other issues, takes a real genius to figure that one out!
Octavian Madullier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2017-02-24 07:13:42 UTC
Yes good change CCP ...

correct me if i am wrong but the Rorq was supposed to be a MINING thingi ... not a combat vessel per see ...and yes PL ... F U ...

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Hayley Oberstein
Lemet-Oberstein Venture Enterprises
#311 - 2017-02-24 07:47:57 UTC
I enjoy these changes, a Rorq shouldn't be something you can just fly around solo and only hit the panic button once you're caught. I'm surprised at the amount of people upset that they can no longer afford to 'safely' fly around solo in a ship that expensive, let alone an industrial ship, and not have to worry about losing it.
Jakara Dakara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2017-02-24 08:16:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Jakara Dakara
Well i agree with the need of wanting to adjust the mineral economy some, but instead of hitting the faucet directly you might consider increasing some of the mineral sinks as well?

Still hit the excavators with a bit of a nerf, keep a 60 second cycle time but make the base ore mined 150-175 m3.
Still boost Mining laser field enhancement (barges and exhumers need some love).
Nerf null sec EC complexes bonuses a bit, in particular the component building aspect.
Increase the Mineral cost of building excavators.
Increase fuel requirement for the Industrial Core.
Still spread out the Ore in the anomalies some.
and most importantly, nerf low ends in null some (Spoud and Gneiss in particular) Mexallon is your current null bottle neck, this will make nullsec entities require to come out of null to trade some, I know people have said they want to reduce the dependence on needed to go to jita, but with citadel market hubs being set up that is taking care of itself slowly.

I suspect that by going around and adjust things separately it will make it easier to adjust the market in the future, say if another huge mineral sink comes along in a few years (player build stargates?) as well as make it easier to adjust if mining falls out of favor again and mineral prices spike to hard.

I also strongly suspect you can hit the rorq a lot harder and still not even dent the mineral economy. Miners will just buy and extra rorq alt and will reduce the effect of the nerf, where as increasing mineral usage will and more importantly forcing null sec to come to empire to get a steady supply of low ends will actually encourage some of the rorqs to come out of the belt and participate in trading, logistics and hopefully securing the route.


A random thought, increase rat spawns in belt and have them target the excavator drones mining as a priority?
if a rorq is shooting rats it can't be mining and I would bet you would see a few more excavators go pop.
Harry Forever
#313 - 2017-02-24 08:31:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Harry Forever
why would anybody still bring out a +10b ship if you nerf again the mining yield, I already stopped training into one of them because of your last nerf.. the risk is just too high

you also brought back capital fights and lots of content because of those ships in the belts, one day we even had a super drop on a rorq in 7rm.. more bigger ships will get lost and more stuff will be used, I don't see more mineral supply as a big problem, it will even out over time
Leila Pegasus
Pain And Compliance
#314 - 2017-02-24 08:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Leila Pegasus
It was multiple times said that this lock asteroid thing would solve the problem.

Well not realy what u gone do if the fight happend to happen in a asteroid belt. Then the Tackle rorqual just returns. By disallowing points of any sort to be fittet to a Rorqual hull it would leave the mining rorqual so he can at least panic also if he happens to mine the last roid on the other hand the tackle rorqual would be gone for good.

about the changes to the drones make them pls at least faster specialy if u gone increase the rock sizes and the time they are flying useless through space.

The incentive to take rorquals out (for mining) should be not reduced by letting them have a mod that does not help them if they happen to mine the last rock. It makes no sense nore is that rorqual thats mining there and clearing blets the the route of the problem so leave him alone.
State War Academy
Caldari State
#315 - 2017-02-24 09:02:19 UTC
I'll just straight up say it instead of abbreviating or walking around it...

CCP WHAT IN THE ACTUAL ****? You already nerfed the Rorq. Now we're getting another nerf that fucks us even harder 6 ways from Sunday. EWAR negating a PANIC? Really? I hope that isn't the case because I'd have to go back to carrier ratting. Oh wait, that's getting a ******* nerf too. If you want to make a useful nerf, which I believe is what the orignial idea of the panic was intended to do, make it so we can't use scrams, webs, points or anything along those lines of combat modules. PANIC module was a great idea for Rorquals since we were gifted the Excavators.

You guys are already nerfing those. Don't nerf the damn PANIC as well. Make it so PvP related mods cannot be used in PANIC mode. Indy Core Prevents EWAR, sure, but it doesn't stop incoming damage. As much as I don't want to admit it, nerfing the Excavator's will surely save the mineral market, and that's gonna be another hit to anyone who does industry and uses those drones. Those drones dented the **** out of our wallets, but they're worth it. Don't make the EVE Community of Rorqual pilots regret the training.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#316 - 2017-02-24 09:14:25 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Initial activation of the PANIC module would require the Rorqual to have an active target lock on an asteroid.

Please don't. This would make the PANIC module essentially useless. Figure out some other way, this is just a duct tape style solution that limits ways to use the PANIC. With this change you're essentially forcing Rorqual pilots to activate it as soon as hostiles land on grid, and that is rarely ever preferable.

If you need to tie it to mining so badly, only allow activation if the Rorqual is within 100KM of an asteroid.

The PANIC module is what allows Rorquals to be in belts in the first place. If any douche muffin frigate with ECM can prevent you from using it, the entire purpose of that module is gone. Period.

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Vokan Tain
Pandemic Horde
#317 - 2017-02-24 09:30:14 UTC
This nerf as many have said is a complete over reach.

However it will have the desired effect, people who live to mine will go back to hulk fleets, and those who have moved from carrier ratting to rorqs, will sell the rorqs and go back to risking less for the same isk per hour.

Fozzie is your most creative solution for Panic module really that I must have an asteroid locked. ...

and i was in such a good friday mood.
Tr0pa de elite.
#318 - 2017-02-24 09:32:16 UTC
In all I like the Changes. However , some concerns. While exhumers have longer range, Anoms are still pretty spread out and I do not see this as changing much.
Second on the panic module. Major issue. after the last roid is down you can often have close to a full cycle of Indy core before you can Warp out. This will be a very vulnerable time as there are no Roids to lock onto.
Surely there is a better way to fix this.
Keep up the good work Fozzie
Dmitrii Satohin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2017-02-24 09:48:39 UTC
Dont nerth rorqual yet . Let the ore price fall and everything should get very cheap
Amphal Deka
The Darwin Establishment
#320 - 2017-02-24 09:59:49 UTC
I'm still not happy with the costs of the Excavator Drones. They cost more then the rorqual it's self! I be better off with t3 battle ship doing sites with no risk really. Excavator Drones need to be place in the LP store and nerf the t2 drone parts off it. Let's get the cost down to around of a hulk fitted up. Not letting the darn Excavator Drones be worth 1.7 which is very unhealthy for the market. Anyone at this point can drive cost up or control them.