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[March] Balance Tweaks: Fighters, Supercarriers & Burst Projectors

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erik destroyer
Doomheim
#461 - 2017-03-23 18:52:37 UTC
damn well geuss i will put my carrier i got not so long ago away...........

the fighters just sit in space while given commands and then owww wait here they come bang one down damn recall recall **** lost another............ well that was an full squad nice work ccp u defiantly f it up this time.

this patch is bad really bad i u should have only fixed the bug that would have been enough but no make the sinature radius cruiser lvl sweet see the fighters pop damn there goes my keyboard smashing it to make them react to the new hotkeys......
erik destroyer
Doomheim
#462 - 2017-03-23 18:55:33 UTC
Trevize Demerzel wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Tested this new patch with my supercarrier.

Nothing really changed. And it was expected more or less having 1 Haven being done in 5:30. Most of the time NPC targeted my fighters but it is too fast for them to do any significant damage anyway.

So this change mainly targeted carrier pilots. And i'm still not convinced that they needed it What?


Doesn't seem to have even affected Carriers much beyond multi-box/AFK capability. So far I've seen no change from people ratting Blood Raiders, Sansha, Guristas, Rogue Drones, and Serpentis. Haven't been able to find a video or person who does Angels though and there's been some concern raised over their TPs and Webs. If anyone has a video with the changes I'm curious if the concerns with Angels have been as overblown as those with other factions.



Angels are fine. If anything the patch made me more conscience of efficiency and my ticks have gone up.

It only made it a little hairy when swapping heavy fighter types to deal with a dread with both subcaps and a dread trying to alpha your fighters, but I've already adopted to that as well.

I'm finding this is mostly a nerf to PVP and heavy fighters. PVE is very much a keyboard/click fest, been playing a lot with the new fighter assignable hotkeys.



the angels rip true ur fighters........... ive lost like 5 minimum per site. even while trying to use the new hotkeys they just react to slow the battleship is like yumm fresh meat.....
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#463 - 2017-03-23 22:35:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Dictateur Imperator
Legal procedure is starting for the game accessibility change.
We will see.
Miles Tullius Eldard
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#464 - 2017-03-23 22:45:41 UTC
So CCP wants to reduce total income it looks like. Rorquals got nerfed, as they should be, Carriers got nerfed for no apparent reason. So now Incursions are now the best way to make isk? Seriously CCP you want highsec battleships to be the best moneymaker in the game? You want anyone with 6 injectors and a 1b isk to be able to immediately jump into 250m an hour (Better than carrier ratting, rorqual mining, and now supercarrier ratting) in reletive safety. Makes sense.

Because I totally trained a carrier account for three years to be bested by a subcap in highsec, that trained for 40 days.

Sources being TVP's minimum skills and fittings pages.
https://wiki.thevalhallaproject.info/doku.php?id=guides:minimum_skill_requirements
https://wiki.thevalhallaproject.info/doku.php?id=fittings:hq_doctrines_and_ship_fittings
Vladimir Petrovski
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#465 - 2017-03-24 18:16:09 UTC
Although I can use T2 fighters, I refuse to use them ratting. Absolutely no point in losing a ~13mil fighter as opposed to a ~2-3mil fighter, especially with the new sig radius change. Before the change, fighters were not OP. We used them, and saw them countered properly.

  • IF the goal is to make it so that non-tactical players (ie: point-and-click) do not become quite as butt-hurt, then you're heading in the right direction.
  • IF your goal is to make the utilization of carriers in ratting less reasonable and more cost-prohibitive, then you're heading in the right direction.
  • IF your goal is to make PVPing in a carrier, and thus the utilization of carriers, less appealing and more cost-prohibitive, since the ONLY offensive capability for a carrier are its fighters, and the only feasible defensive capability are its fighters then you're heading in the right direction. (Short-range modules such as webs, points, neuts aside mind you)


I took a break from this game for nearly three years, and it definitely appears that CCP still is not listening to the players. Yes, we need to have more content, more give-and-take, more challenge, but not at the expense of reasonability and proper give-and-take.
Kravhan
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#466 - 2017-03-25 01:51:28 UTC
I tried to run a C3 Unsecured Frontier Database in a Thanatos. Killed 2 Sleepers before aggro switched to fighters. Immediately recalled fighters and lost two fighters even though they were only 15km away. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Bailed and returned with a Rattlesnake...

Problem Addict
#467 - 2017-03-26 16:29:32 UTC
OK really smart people.
Tell your fighters to orbit the next target BEFORE your current target explodes.

They will still fire upon the current target until it explodes and will move onto the next designated "orbit" which you can then begin firing upon.

This will result in non-stop fightermovement and non-stop application of fighter DPS.

#getgood
Lugia3
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#468 - 2017-03-26 19:21:35 UTC
Hey would you look at that, the changes went through and carrier ratting is still the exact same as it used to be! How apocalyptic!

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#469 - 2017-03-26 19:25:24 UTC
Problem Addict wrote:
OK really smart people.
Tell your fighters to orbit the next target BEFORE your current target explodes.

They will still fire upon the current target until it explodes and will move onto the next designated "orbit" which you can then begin firing upon.

This will result in non-stop fightermovement and non-stop application of fighter DPS.

#getgood



You are really smart ... some people can't for RL reason. So be very smart and read all other people beofre post.
Shoto Neto
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2017-03-27 08:41:54 UTC
So let's talk about numbers in carrier ratting now. It was bad before, now its horrible.

An average gate haven has 50 rats.
To kill them effectively and not lose fighters you need to repeat the following sequence for each rat:

1.Attack target - F1, will count it as click to simplify
2.Select next target - click
3.Orbit next target - click

That's the basic secuence. In addition you need to lock each rat with ctrl+click so 50 more clicks.
Then you have the rockets and you need to shoot them all to be effective. Since shooting full salvo is a waste, you need to fire 1 or 2 rockets per BS rat. Thats 36 clicks.

Summing it up: 50 locking clicks, plus 3*50 basic sequence clicks, plus 36 rocket click gives us 236 clicks per haven.
Average carrier does haven in 10 minutes or so.
Now we divide 600 seconds by 236 clicks and it gives us one click each 2.5 seconds. EACH 2.5 SECONDS!!!

Numbers are pretty accurate from my experience as when I rat in carrier I have literally no time to chat.

In conclusion - CCPlease, clicking each 2.5 seconds is very, very bad gameplay, please fix it.
Ideally, I would want to click things only when I need to shoot rockets, use mwd or making fighters shoot priority targets.

Emma Ai
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#471 - 2017-03-27 11:51:09 UTC
Shoto Neto wrote:
So let's talk about numbers in carrier ratting now. It was bad before, now its horrible.

...
Now we divide 600 seconds by 236 clicks and it gives us one click each 2.5 seconds. EACH 2.5 SECONDS!!!
...


They think you are robot. Or dont think. Or think: Killing NPC its so exciting!

Yesterday NPC killed 2 fighters. I complited ~21 anomales. I tried to be attentive, and used "w". I always watch for figter`s shield but is was useless. It was tediously i didnt have time for chat, read some ingame information... It was horrible. TY CCP
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#472 - 2017-03-27 14:14:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

Frostys Virpio wrote:


So what you are asking for is "buff carrier/super rating" since those harder site would need to be more lucrative to get run.


Doesn't have to be Carrier/Super ratting, CCP have already said they want the end-game of Null PvE to be more group focused. Content that requires a group to be run is inherently harder to because you need to organize the group, and you need people you can rely on.

Case and point is Incursions. They make almost as much as a mediocre Carrier Ratting pilot per hour but you need to rely on 39 other pilots knowing what they're doing, especially the Logi, or you can quite easily lose your ship, and that's without factoring in player interference. Create something like that in Null but make it permanent local content instead of a roving spawn system and you could quite reasonably dial up the risk, rewards, and general difficulty of the PvE for pilots in Null without throwing the whole game's economy out of whack.

Besides it doesn't need to be a huge difference in payouts. Players will always gravitate towards the highest possible payout so long as the Risk/Reward balance isn't obviously out of whack.


I was looking from the point of view where he only wanted new sites for carrier/super ratting. He never mentioned it would require anything else like forming groups. I'm all for group ratting begin made a thing since right now, doing so is essentially a self nerf.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#473 - 2017-03-27 14:18:40 UTC
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Legal procedure is starting for the game accessibility change.
We will see.


Keep us posted on your legal battle about a single feature in a game no longer being as accessible as it used to be. I really want to hear about it.
Dictateur Imperator
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#474 - 2017-03-27 17:26:27 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Dictateur Imperator wrote:
Legal procedure is starting for the game accessibility change.
We will see.


Keep us posted on your legal battle about a single feature in a game no longer being as accessible as it used to be. I really want to hear about it.


In fact no the first time CCP have legal problem... but i, general they finish per negociate when they understand it's not a joke or a fake .

Mags Trigelian
Running with Wolves
Northern Coalition.
#475 - 2017-03-28 22:08:56 UTC
Every haven I run I now lose a fighter. I am aware of using orbit to keep the fighters moving because they stop dead in space otherwise. No way to prevent the sudden bursts of damage, usually the problem is the last large wave but sometimes earlier smaller waves as well.

Escalations at least in angel space have disssapeared, haven't seen any pop up for about 30+ sites.
Domination spawns commonly contain nothing of value.
Dreads, see your fighters go pop, pop, pop, pop... so the dreads are still masters at tracking anything and everything.

So yeah, excellent patch. And it got worse since patchday.

I just read another post about capital drone durability rigs, will consider it :(
Affenmesserkampf Achsoo
#476 - 2017-03-29 06:34:30 UTC
Try carrier ratting with 3 accounts absolutely stressful to play, no fun at all. and u will lose fighters. Expensive as they are its not a good deal to rat anymore with more than one account.

So paying for many years for 3 accounts. Two are now sitting on station.... maybe skill rorqual and adapt? better not it cant even warp away in danger xD.

hoping they fix this horribly mess with the fighters.... not only for pve even for pvp the squads melt away.... 3 support fighters to tackle a enemy? would be a shame if a whole squad cant survive long enough to kill a target....
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#477 - 2017-03-29 10:01:49 UTC
Affenmesserkampf Achsoo wrote:
Try carrier ratting with 3 accounts absolutely stressful to play, no fun at all. and u will lose fighters. Expensive as they are its not a good deal to rat anymore with more than one account.........


Yes - and I am afraid that this ^^ is exactly why the change(s) have happened.

Ratting with 3 x Ishtars mostly afk, or indeed 3 x Carriers before the changes to Fighters, doesn't break the isk faucet from ratting. But being able to run 3 x Carriers/Supers does - and that's why....

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium

Gadzooki
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#478 - 2017-03-29 20:17:01 UTC
Problem Addict wrote:
OK really smart people.
Tell your fighters to orbit the next target BEFORE your current target explodes.

They will still fire upon the current target until it explodes and will move onto the next designated "orbit" which you can then begin firing upon.

This will result in non-stop fightermovement and non-stop application of fighter DPS.

#getgood



I invite you to come to Angel space and see what happens the instant a web lands on your fighter group.
Its disengenius comments like yours that make CCP think they have achieved balance but really have killed an entire category of ships for many people.

Do yourself a favor and #getinformed before you talk about something you have no knowledge about.
Slivo
Hidden Baguette
X877.
#479 - 2017-04-02 10:14:08 UTC
This is a nightmare in WH too.
Sleepers focus and kill your fighters no matter if they are moving, orbitting or not.
I loose 4 fighter each anomalie being active and the more careful I can be.
Trevize Demerzel
#480 - 2017-04-10 15:03:32 UTC
NPC Dreads can alpha an entire squad off the field in seconds. Odd... as a PVP dread can't even track them well enough to hit them... How come an NPC dread can?

-