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Pirate Battleships & Absurd Ganker Arguments

First post
Author
Salvos Rhoska
#241 - 2017-02-27 10:39:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Black Pedro wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
snip

Not convinced.

You are making intel gathering a suspect-level offence for dubious reasons. I see no plausible way this change would increase player interaction and activity, only decrease it.

Good luck getting your idea implemented.


The intent of scanning someones fit/hold, is itself dubious, and as others have stated, almost exclusively used for the purpose of ascertaining whether to suicide gank the ship or not.

You have yourselves, over and over, stated how valuable the tactical intel on a ships fit/cargo is.
Why then should it be gained at no risk?

Wardecced targets can also fit/cargo scanned, but obviously in that situation, no suspect penalty is applied, as they are war. Nor is it a suicide gank related issue, as CONCORD does not interfere.

It is not rational that fitt/hold scanning does not incur risk/cost.

A suspect timer does not prevent you from continuing scanning other ships.
A suspect timer does not prevent a suicide gank from happening, nor prevent informing that suicide gank with tactically valuable data.
Afaik, even an Alpha in a rookie ship can perform fit/cargo scanning.
A suspect timer increases interaction and pvp, by making the scanning ship (which is gathering data on targets for a suicide gank) itself a valid target.

That is fair quid pro quo.
If you want valuable tactical data on a potential target for a suicide gank, go ahead and scan them, but be prepared to defend yourself as a consequence.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#242 - 2017-02-27 10:46:03 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#243 - 2017-02-27 10:46:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.

So it should be ok if they get a suspect timer, since it is not a "punishment". After all he/she can still run missions. All it will do is increase player interaction, which is a good thing I hear.
Salvos Rhoska
#244 - 2017-02-27 10:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.

Your "ability to scan people" is not reduced.
Scan all you want.
A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.

Furthermore, its not the suicide gankers (as in the attack ships) which do the scanning.
You are again conflating suicide gankers, with the scanning ships and hauling ships involved in the operation.
They are not a homogeneous whole, they are distinct entities with distinct different mechanics.
Salvos Rhoska
#245 - 2017-02-27 10:52:03 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.

So it should be ok if they get a suspect timer, since it is not a "punishment". After all he/she can still run missions. All it will do is increase player interaction, which is a good thing I hear.


Yes. Exactly.
Dom Arkaral
Slavers Union
#246 - 2017-02-27 10:52:29 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.

Your "ability to scan people" is not reduced.
Scan all you want.
A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.

Furthermore, its not the suicide gankers (as in the attack ships) which do the scanning.
You are again conflating suicide gankers, with the scanning ships and hauling ships involved in the operation.
They are not a homogeneous whole, they are distinct entities with distinct different mechanics.

So people using scanners in HS when they want to see how much cap their prey has left get suspect too?
Neato

Tear Gatherer. Quebecker. Has no Honer. Salt Harvester.

Broadcast 4 Reps -- YOU ARE NOT ALONE, EVER

Instigator of the First ISD Thunderdome

CCL Loyalist

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#247 - 2017-02-27 10:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.

So it should be ok if they get a suspect timer, since it is not a "punishment". After all he/she can still run missions. All it will do is increase player interaction, which is a good thing I hear.

Yep, this seems like an equivalent argument, especially if missions involve shooting factions and not pirates.

After all, the flagging system is run by DED, who are an agreement between the races.

So if a player shoots a faction ship, they should go suspect at least. Surely it's 'logical' that the empires aren't going to be happy witht capsuleers that shoot their citizens.

It's not a punishment after all.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Salvos Rhoska
#248 - 2017-02-27 10:54:28 UTC
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
... reducing consequence for the ganking alts in the group effort.

Typical stupid Salvos 'logic'. I don't want to reduce anything.

Scanning ships can be ganked, just like any other. No change needed.


All ships can be ganked. So what?

The issue is that scanning ships incur no risk/cost for acquiring valuable data from a potential targets fit/cargo.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#249 - 2017-02-27 10:55:22 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.

Your "ability to scan people" is not reduced.
Scan all you want.
A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.


Yes it is reduced simply because you have to replace that scanning ship every time you scan something. Do you have any iddea how many ship need to be scanned before you find a profitable target? Hundreds of ships get scanned, under your plan each and every time you scan you will likely get blown up and every time you will need to go and grab a new ship which means an hours work will become a weeks work.

You also completely render the passive targeter pointless
Salvos Rhoska
#250 - 2017-02-27 10:57:11 UTC
Dom Arkaral wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.

Your "ability to scan people" is not reduced.
Scan all you want.
A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.

Furthermore, its not the suicide gankers (as in the attack ships) which do the scanning.
You are again conflating suicide gankers, with the scanning ships and hauling ships involved in the operation.
They are not a homogeneous whole, they are distinct entities with distinct different mechanics.

So people using scanners in HS when they want to see how much cap their prey has left get suspect too?
Neato


Yes.

Unless its a War target, or engagement timers have already been activated.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#251 - 2017-02-27 10:57:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
... reducing consequence for the ganking alts in the group effort.

Typical stupid Salvos 'logic'. I don't want to reduce anything.

Scanning ships can be ganked, just like any other. No change needed.


All ships can be ganked. So what?

The issue is that scanning ships incur no risk/cost for acquiring valuable data from a potential targets fit/cargo.

So if there is no risk already, how would I even be wanting it to be reduced? How can you reduce risk to less than 0 in that case?

Your logic gets weirder every post.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2017-02-27 10:58:53 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
... reducing consequence for the ganking alts in the group effort.

Typical stupid Salvos 'logic'. I don't want to reduce anything.

Scanning ships can be ganked, just like any other. No change needed.


All ships can be ganked. So what?

The issue is that scanning ships incur no risk/cost for acquiring valuable data from a potential targets fit/cargo.



  • Their scans can be blocked by double wrapping

  • Their scans do not work on blockade runners

  • Their scans do not work on people pulling the MWD cloak trick

  • The scan ship can be ganked.

  • Thats more risk than a hauler has.
    Salvos Rhoska
    #253 - 2017-02-27 11:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
    baltec1 wrote:
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

    NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

    A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
    Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.


    Which as I pointed out to you several times means gankers will have greatly reduced ability to scan people. That is a hefty nerf.

    Your "ability to scan people" is not reduced.
    Scan all you want.
    A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.


    Yes it is reduced simply because you have to replace that scanning ship every time you scan something. Do you have any iddea how many ship need to be scanned before you find a profitable target? Hundreds of ships get scanned, under your plan each and every time you scan you will likely get blown up and every time you will need to go and grab a new ship which means an hours work will become a weeks work.

    You also completely render the passive targeter pointless


    You dont "have" to replace it, unless it is destroyed (pvp is fine).
    A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.

    I dont care how many targets you have to scan to find a profitable target.
    That is your problem, not the games or its mechanics.
    You dont have to scan ships inorder to suicide gank them.

    As I said, afaik scanning can be done by rookie ships with Alpha clones.
    Hire/involve them instead then.

    The passive targeter is not rendered pointless.
    You can still use it to acquire targets without their notice (WHICH IS ITS POINT), but if you activate a scan module on that target, suspect tag will be applied.
    Salvos Rhoska
    #254 - 2017-02-27 11:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
    Shae Tadaruwa wrote:
    Ima Wreckyou wrote:
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:
    baltec1 wrote:
    Well in that case lets put the exact same punishments on anyone who shoots an NPC ship. After all, according to you its risk and punishment free.

    NPCs are not players, or capsuleers.

    A suspect timer is not a "punishment".
    Its a mechanic which enables NPC free player conflict, as a consequence of taking action against another player.

    So it should be ok if they get a suspect timer, since it is not a "punishment". After all he/she can still run missions. All it will do is increase player interaction, which is a good thing I hear.

    Yep, this seems like an equivalent argument, especially if missions involve shooting factions and not pirates.

    After all, the flagging system is run by DED, who are an agreement between the races.

    So if a player shoots a faction ship, they should go suspect at least. Surely it's 'logical' that the empires aren't going to be happy witht capsuleers that shoot their citizens.

    It's not a punishment after all.


    NPCs are not players.

    NPC destruction incurs a standing loss.
    It makes the NPC entity increasingly hostile towards you, but is unrelated to your situation with other players.
    Furthermore, NPC entities do not interfere with suspect timers.
    Infinity Ziona
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #255 - 2017-02-27 11:11:47 UTC
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:


    Yes.

    Unless its a War target, or engagement timers have already been activated.

    M8 the last gank on zkill has 79 stealth bombers (3 billion) to kill a Rhea carrying 2 billion that dropped 630 mill. Do you really thinkan losing an ibis with a 30k scanner is going to deter them?

    CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

    Kaalrus pwned..... :)

    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #256 - 2017-02-27 11:19:18 UTC
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:




    You dont "have" to replace it, unless it is destroyed (pvp is fine).
    A suspect timer does not prevent you from scanning.


    Scan ships are super easy to find and easy to kill, you will have people who will dedicate their time to blowing them up. Under your plan losing the scanning ship is all but guaranteed.
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:

    I dont care how many targets you have to scan to find a profitable target.
    That is your problem, not the games or its mechanics.
    You dont have to scan ships inorder to suicide gank them.


    You do have to scan them if you want to turn a profit. It doesn't matter if you don't care this is what will happen with your plan. Needless to say your play would be a very heavy blow to ganking and would reduce greatly the number of people ganking simply because turning a profit would become borderline impossible.

    Salvos Rhoska wrote:

    As I said, afaik scanning can be done by rookie ships with Alpha clones.
    Hire/involve them instead then.


    You are still ignoring what I am telling you. The big issue is the amount of time you will lose under your plan means the vast bulk of potential targets will not be scanned. You are effectively killing profitable ganking because they can't scan enough ships to be able to find the profitable targets. They would be relying on blind luck their one scan result every few minutes pings a viable target.

    Salvos Rhoska wrote:

    The passive targeter is not rendered pointless.

    You can still use it to acquire targets without their notice, but if you activate a scan module on that target, suspect tag will be applied.


    What is the point of hiding your locking the ship if you go suspect the moment you hit scan? You literally light up like a Christmas tree.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #257 - 2017-02-27 11:21:47 UTC
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:


    NPCs are not players.

    NPC destruction incurs a standing loss.
    It makes the NPC entity increasingly hostile towards you, but is unrelated to your situation with other players.
    Furthermore, NPC entities do not interfere with suspect timers.


    If its not a nerf and not a risk then mission runners who are blatantly are breaking the no aggression in highsec rules should at the very least go suspect.
    Salvos Rhoska
    #258 - 2017-02-27 11:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
    Infinity Ziona wrote:
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:


    Yes.

    Unless its a War target, or engagement timers have already been activated.

    M8 the last gank on zkill has 79 stealth bombers (3 billion) to kill a Rhea carrying 2 billion that dropped 630 mill. Do you really thinkan losing an ibis with a 30k scanner is going to deter them?


    I dont care who it does or does not deter.
    Thats up to each individual player.

    I am concerned with rational balance that aligns with EVE's core ethos.

    If you want valuable tactical data on a ships fit/cargo, this should come at cost/risk.

    Use a rookie ship, or a BS to scan, thats up to you.
    But then be prepared to defend yourself once you go suspect.

    As we have all agreed, the purpose of scanning a ships fit/cargo, is inorder to ascertain whether to suicide gank it, and with what effort/configuration.

    Thus a scanning ship is implicitly involved in the suicide gank group effort, and should carry its own risk/cost commensurately in that, both to their own benefit from the proceeds, as weighed against their targets interests.

    Suspect timer fulfills all these.
    baltec1
    Bat Country
    Pandemic Horde
    #259 - 2017-02-27 11:27:26 UTC
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:

    Suspect timer fulfills all these.


    It destroys for profit ganking, which is what you want. This isn't the first nerf ganking idea you have started.
    Infinity Ziona
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #260 - 2017-02-27 11:27:56 UTC
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:
    Infinity Ziona wrote:
    Salvos Rhoska wrote:


    Yes.

    Unless its a War target, or engagement timers have already been activated.

    M8 the last gank on zkill has 79 stealth bombers (3 billion) to kill a Rhea carrying 2 billion that dropped 630 mill. Do you really thinkan losing an ibis with a 30k scanner is going to deter them?


    I dont care who it does or does not deter.
    Thats up to each individual player.

    I am concerned with rational balance that aligns with EVE's core ethos.

    If you want valuable tactical data on a ships fit/cargo, this should come at cost/risk.

    Use a rookie ship, or a BS to scan, thats up to you.
    But then be prepared to defend yourself once you go suspect.

    As we have all agreed, the purpose of scanning a ships fit/cargo, is inorder to ascertain whether to suicide gank it, and with what effort/configuration.

    Thus a scanning ship is implicitly involved in the suicide gank group effort, and should carry its own risk/cost commensurately in that, both to their own benefit from the proceeds, as weighed against their targets interests.

    Suspect timer fulfills all these.

    Then post it in features and ideas. Its an idiotic idea but go ahead.

    CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

    Kaalrus pwned..... :)