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Pirate Battleships & Absurd Ganker Arguments

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Author
Salvos Rhoska
#201 - 2017-02-26 12:56:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Going suspect for scanning a ship does not prevent you from scanning other ships, or suicide ganking.

If you want valuable data on the private contents of a ship, then be prepared to accept risk for doing so.

Hire/involve Alphas as scanners for that data if you dont want to do it yourself.
You can scan ships in a rookie ship, with Alpha skill sets. (iirc)

Scanning =/= Suicide ganking.
They are systemically unrelated actions.

It is nonsense to claim, that going from being unable to aggress a scanning ship, to being able to aggress a scanning ship, would reduce pvp in HS. It categorically increases it. There is no way to argue around that.

I typically fly ships with more than enough alpha dmg/tracking to instablap any frigate, and almost cruisers.
If someone scans my ship and my personal data, and this incurred a suspect tag, I will blow them out of space.
Not only that, but I will instablap any other scanning ships I come across with active suspect timers.

Currently, I cannot do that. It is abundantly clear, even in my example above, that incurring a suspect timer for intrusively gaining valuable data on my personal fit/hold, will lead to more pvp than now.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#202 - 2017-02-26 13:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Going suspect for scanning a ship, does not prevent you from scanning other ships, or suicide ganking.


The exploding part does, thats the part you are adding. Scanning mods dont tend to work after your ship is turned to dust.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

If you want valuable data on the private contents of a ship, then be prepared to accept risk for doing so.

Hire/involve Alphas as scanners for that data if you dont want to do it yourself.
You can scan ships in a rookie ship, with Alpha skill sets. (iirc)


Not free and still takes time. your effectiveness is greatly reduced.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Scanning =/= Suicide ganking.
They are systemically unrelated actions.


Name any other activity that used a cargo scanner.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It is nonsense to claim, that going from being unable to aggress a scanning ship, to being able to aggress a scanning ship, would reduce pvp in HS. It categorically increases it. There is no way to argue around that.


You can agress a scanning ship currently, its called ganking.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

I typically fly ships with more than enough alpha dmg/tracking to instablap any frigate, and almost cruisers.
If someone scans my ship and my personal data, and this incurred a suspect tag, I will blow them out of space.
Currently, I cannot do that. It is abundantly clear, even in my example above, that incurring a suspect timer for intrusively gaining valuable data on my personal fit/hold, will lead to more pvp than now.


You scan a ship, you die, you go back to the station for another ship, warp back to the gate, you scan a ship, you die.

Its unworkable, do you even know how many ships you need to scan before you find a target? Go and count how many ships pass though the amarr/jita trade route over an hour. Under your plan you would be scanning at best a fraction of the ships you could before, this is what will mean fewer ganks happening. This is a big nerf to targeted ganking and if you need an example of what happens when you nerf targeted ganking into the ground just look at what happened to barge piracy (It doesn't exist anymore).
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#203 - 2017-02-26 13:25:36 UTC
Aaron wrote:
Why do people keep complaining about ganking??

I've lost my patience with complainers. The gankers simply use a small window of opportunity in order to gank you, this is the delay it takes concord to respond. As gamers its your job to work out a way to close that window of opportunity. This is achieved by working with others and implementing logical tactics where u will be successful in avoiding or escaping from a gank.

There are consequences to going at it alone and listening to no one..you will not benefit. What ever you do in eve do it carefully and for god sake talk to someone with experience and listen to how they overcame obstacles and try it for yourself.


Well said.

Remove standings and insurance.

Salvos Rhoska
#204 - 2017-02-26 13:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Its no-one elses problem if your scanning ship explodes, than your own.

You dont need a scanning ship to suicide gank.

If you want to invasively investigate my private fit/hold, for data as to whether to attack me or not, I should be able to retaliate for you doing so.

The argument that "I should be able to pry into your private ship/hold data, so as to decide whether to suicide gank you or not, and there is nothing you can do about it" is crap.

What goddam business is it of yours what my fit is or what Im carrying?

If you are going to invade my personal data, for purposes of deciding whether to suicide gank me, I should be able to defend myself by eliminating you.

IRL if you think Im going to stand by while you investigate the contents of my car, my pockets/bag or my house for purposes of destroying them and stealing their contents, you better believe I will come at you with all force available to me.

PS: As to any other activity that uses a cargo scanner, exploration does to investigate relic/data/ghost can contents.
Again your dishonesty is apparent. If you had spent even 5s on considering this, you would not have had to ask.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#205 - 2017-02-26 13:53:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its no-one elses problem if your scanning ship explodes, than your own.

You dont need a scanning ship to suicide gank.

If you want to invasively investigate my private fit/hold, for data as to whether to attack me or not, I should be able to retaliate for you doing so.

The argument that "I should be able to pry into your private ship/hold data, so as to decide whether to suicide gank you or not, and there is nothing you can do about it" is crap.

What goddam business is it of yours what my fit is or what Im carrying?

If you are going to invade my personal data, for purposes of deciding whether to suicide gank me, I should be able to defend myself by eliminating you.

IRL if you think Im going to stand by while you investigate the contents of my car, my pockets/bag or my house for purposes of destroying them and stealing their contents, you better believe I will come at you with all force available to me.

This is all pretty silly.

You don't need a cargo scanner to suicide gank something. You do however need a scanner if you want to be a highsec pirate. It is fundamental to the profession to assess the potential reward before you commit a criminal act which comes with a high, unavoidable cost.

Your claim to real-life is tenuous at best. I am free to wander the streets peering into cars or shop windows, looking for something to steal. It would be suspicious sure, and I might get a visit from the police, but some shop owner or car driver who sees me can't walk up and beat me up over it. Similarly, I am free to "scan" objects with safe amounts of radiation and analyze the output if I so desire. I can also use infrared camera to look into wall or under clothes. It's all fine in a public space as long as you don't trespass or damage anything in most jurisdictions.

But this is a game. I am open to the possibility of more game play around intel and scanning, contraband and smuggling, but for pirates to ply their trade they need to know what is in a ship. It's why the module was added to the game in the first place. Reducing its utility would be a straight out nerf to the profitability of the profession, and one that isn't likely to make any interesting content.

There is no compelling reason to make it suspect offence, and every possibility it would reduce people finding profitable targets to shoot. Yet another change that will reduce content and make the game more boring. Therefore, it isn't one likely to happen.

If you don't want your stuff scanned, there is a whole ship class that is a hard counter to that. Use a Blockade Runner.
Salvos Rhoska
#206 - 2017-02-26 14:05:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Black Pedro wrote:
Snip.

None of which argues why the act of ship/cargo scanning should not incur a suspect timer.

Its an invasive action taken to ascertain otherwise private data, for the purposes of determining whether to attack them via suicide gank, or not. Its action taken for the specific purpose of committing a crime.

Suicide gank ships are subject to 100% fatality from CONCORD.
Hauling ships for the loot, are subject to suspect timers.
Scanning ships, however, have no consequence for their action, though they are implicit in determining the metrics of a suicide gank.

It is not unreasonable, considering the invasiveness of scanning, and the direct intent behind that to suicide gank a ship, that there should be recourse for action against the scanning ship as well.

PS: "It would be suspicious sure"
This fulfills the suspect tag requirement in EVE.
CONCORD (ergo, law enforcement) will not intervene, but players will.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#207 - 2017-02-26 14:55:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Snip.

...Its an invasive action taken to ascertain otherwise private data...

In the context of a spaceship game, I would like you to define 'private data' if you please, that deserves a Suspect Timer?

- Ship cargo seems to be it for you at the least.

mmm...

- Bumping is definitely am invasive physical agression, should go Suspect.
- Damn, targeting a ship should be highly Suspect in the first place.
- Reminds me: Passive Targeters and Ship Scanner mods: Suspect in Hisec if you even have one fitted and activated, for they are definitely invasive and gank oriented modules isn't it.
- Locator agents, to learn where you live? That is surely a violation of privacy. Suspect it.
- Corp history? Of course it is. Suspect.
- Killboards are bad offenders, but what can one do, eh.
- LOCAL for heaven's sake. CCP what about players privacy? You should add a checkbox to LOCAL. Anyone with the box checked: Suspect.

One more nerf.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#208 - 2017-02-26 15:07:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Its an invasive action taken to ascertain otherwise private data, for the purposes of determining whether to attack them via suicide gank, or not. Its action taken for the specific purpose of committing a crime.
Yup. A crime in a video game where players are suppose to commit crimes against one another.

I don't disagree you have some moral reason to be aggrieved that someone is looking up your skirt at all the goodies in your cargo hold. I am just not sure it makes for a better game to give that part of the piracy process a suspect flag based on the fact it invades your privacy. Seems like it is perfectly appropriate to keep collecting intel as a legal thing to do in New Eden, while stealing stuff, or worse, shooting someone else isn't and deserves a flag for retaliation.

Well, it's not me you have to convince about the greatness of your idea. I suggest you write your arguments down and post it in the appropriate forum.
Keno Skir
#209 - 2017-02-26 15:18:48 UTC
Love that this is 10 pages now :D
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#210 - 2017-02-26 15:24:28 UTC
The tinfoil must flow.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#211 - 2017-02-26 15:35:15 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its an invasive action ...

So what?

"Invasive" isn't a criteria that triggers flags. It's whether it's an offensive module or not. The mechanics are pretty clear:

https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/introducing-the-new-and-improved-crimewatch/

A cargo scanner is not an offensive module. No flag. As it should be.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Wolfgang Jannesen
Czerka.
What Could Possibly Go Wr0ng
#212 - 2017-02-26 15:39:27 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Snip.

...Its an invasive action taken to ascertain otherwise private data...

In the context of a spaceship game, I would like you to define 'private data' if you please, that deserves a Suspect Timer?

- Ship cargo seems to be it for you at the least.

mmm...

- Bumping is definitely am invasive physical agression, should go Suspect.
- Damn, targeting a ship should be highly Suspect in the first place.
- Reminds me: Passive Targeters and Ship Scanner mods: Suspect in Hisec if you even have one fitted and activated, for they are definitely invasive and gank oriented modules isn't it.
- Locator agents, to learn where you live? That is surely a violation of privacy. Suspect it.
- Corp history? Of course it is. Suspect.
- Killboards are bad offenders, but what can one do, eh.
- LOCAL for heaven's sake. CCP what about players privacy? You should add a checkbox to LOCAL. Anyone with the box checked: Suspect.

One more nerf.


Nothing could have summed it up better.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#213 - 2017-02-26 16:43:58 UTC
Wow, just when you think carebears couldn't possibly get any more entitled...

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com

Akane Togenada
Doomheim
#214 - 2017-02-26 16:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Akane Togenada
Scanning of your ship is only an issue if you donĀ“t fit your ship properly and carry stuff worth 'to much'. How hard can it be to calculate EHP x 3000 (or whatever value you find acceptable) to see how much ISK worth of stuff you should carry in order to not be a juicy target for a group of Gankers.

Now granted I often widely exceed this value in my paper-thin exploration frigate but then that's a calculated risk on my behalf and I would never dream of whining if someone takes advantage of it.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#215 - 2017-02-26 17:50:47 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its no-one elses problem if your scanning ship explodes, than your own.

You dont need a scanning ship to suicide gank.

If you want to invasively investigate my private fit/hold, for data as to whether to attack me or not, I should be able to retaliate for you doing so.

The argument that "I should be able to pry into your private ship/hold data, so as to decide whether to suicide gank you or not, and there is nothing you can do about it" is crap.

What goddam business is it of yours what my fit is or what Im carrying?

If you are going to invade my personal data, for purposes of deciding whether to suicide gank me, I should be able to defend myself by eliminating you.

IRL if you think Im going to stand by while you investigate the contents of my car, my pockets/bag or my house for purposes of destroying them and stealing their contents, you better believe I will come at you with all force available to me.

PS: As to any other activity that uses a cargo scanner, exploration does to investigate relic/data/ghost can contents.
Again your dishonesty is apparent. If you had spent even 5s on considering this, you would not have had to ask.


And here we get to the truth, this was never about more pvp but pushing for even higher levels of safety via nerfs. We have several counters to scanning, we can already blow up the scanning ship, you can also avoid being locked entirely. This is just another call to nerf ganking so you don't have to put any effort into your own gameplay.
Mr Mieyli
Doomheim
#216 - 2017-02-26 19:49:39 UTC
How about lowering the number of turrets on destroyers and moving those slots to mids and lows?

This post brought to you by CCP's alpha forum alt initiative. Playing the eve forums has never come cheaper.

NofriendNoLifeStilPostin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#217 - 2017-02-26 23:06:23 UTC  |  Edited by: NofriendNoLifeStilPostin
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its no-one elses problem if your scanning ship explodes, than your own.

You dont need a scanning ship to suicide gank.

If you want to invasively investigate my private fit/hold, for data as to whether to attack me or not, I should be able to retaliate for you doing so.

The argument that "I should be able to pry into your private ship/hold data, so as to decide whether to suicide gank you or not, and there is nothing you can do about it" is crap.

What goddam business is it of yours what my fit is or what Im carrying?

If you are going to invade my personal data, for purposes of deciding whether to suicide gank me, I should be able to defend myself by eliminating you.

IRL if you think Im going to stand by while you investigate the contents of my car, my pockets/bag or my house for purposes of destroying them and stealing their contents, you better believe I will come at you with all force available to me.

PS: As to any other activity that uses a cargo scanner, exploration does to investigate relic/data/ghost can contents.
Again your dishonesty is apparent. If you had spent even 5s on considering this, you would not have had to ask.


And here we get to the truth, this was never about more pvp but pushing for even higher levels of safety via nerfs. We have several counters to scanning, we can already blow up the scanning ship, you can also avoid being locked entirely. This is just another call to nerf ganking so you don't have to put any effort into your own gameplay.



get a life and pull your head out of your ass, forum clown. suicide ganking is all about no risk for potentially enormous reward and is a huge part of why your game is such a joke that nobody wants to play. The penalties for suicide ganking are negligible and that is why every one of you pathetic shitters are doing that instead of doing real pvp against people who actually shoot back.

if suicide gankers didn't have it so easy those shitters might be out doing real pvp instead of preying on the unaware and making other players want to quit because of how bullshit it is that griefers should have it so easy. Are you really so stupid that you can't figure that out?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#218 - 2017-02-26 23:16:58 UTC
^^Didn't read, but likely to be full of bile, and possibly unintended irony.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Hiasa Kite
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#219 - 2017-02-26 23:26:34 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
^^Didn't read, but likely to be full of bile, and possibly unintended irony.

Straight up troll. 0/10 at that.

"Playing an MMO by yourself is like masturbating in the middle of an orgy." -Jonah Gravenstein

Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#220 - 2017-02-26 23:43:32 UTC
NofriendNoLifeStilPostin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Its no-one elses problem if your scanning ship explodes, than your own.

You dont need a scanning ship to suicide gank.

If you want to invasively investigate my private fit/hold, for data as to whether to attack me or not, I should be able to retaliate for you doing so.

The argument that "I should be able to pry into your private ship/hold data, so as to decide whether to suicide gank you or not, and there is nothing you can do about it" is crap.

What goddam business is it of yours what my fit is or what Im carrying?

If you are going to invade my personal data, for purposes of deciding whether to suicide gank me, I should be able to defend myself by eliminating you.

IRL if you think Im going to stand by while you investigate the contents of my car, my pockets/bag or my house for purposes of destroying them and stealing their contents, you better believe I will come at you with all force available to me.

PS: As to any other activity that uses a cargo scanner, exploration does to investigate relic/data/ghost can contents.
Again your dishonesty is apparent. If you had spent even 5s on considering this, you would not have had to ask.


And here we get to the truth, this was never about more pvp but pushing for even higher levels of safety via nerfs. We have several counters to scanning, we can already blow up the scanning ship, you can also avoid being locked entirely. This is just another call to nerf ganking so you don't have to put any effort into your own gameplay.



get a life and pull your head out of your ass, forum clown. suicide ganking is all about no risk for potentially enormous reward and is a huge part of why your game is such a joke that nobody wants to play. The penalties for suicide ganking are negligible and that is why every one of you pathetic shitters are doing that instead of doing real pvp against people who actually shoot back.

if suicide gankers didn't have it so easy those shitters might be out doing real pvp instead of preying on the unaware and making other players want to quit because of how bullshit it is that griefers should have it so easy. Are you really so stupid that you can't figure that out?


Pilots are unaware that there is a massive cross hair on their ship because they have overloaded the value of their freighter??

The facts are suicide ganking only exists because people are not paying attention. Fyi, one can avoid being ganked by scouting with an alt, in terms of a freighter you can split your loads to the value of 1 billion and haul yourself or contract the 1 billion value packages to red frog to haul for a fair fee.

There is more than enough here to stop people being ganked. This is a social game where you can flourish by working within a team of people and listening.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie