These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Pirate Battleships & Absurd Ganker Arguments

First post
Author
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#181 - 2017-02-26 00:59:55 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Chopper Rollins wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Fact is the devs know that the way the CSM vote is rigged ensures only the big blocs get elected yet its not changed to ensure all players are represented.

CSM is a scam.

None of this is true or relevant.

All of it is true and its relevent because its the reason they ignore the majority of players who dont gank or fap over sov / null and pander to the tiny majority who do.

IMHO CCP are trying to stay as true as possible to a game that they want to play, and more importantly the game that they set out to make. It just so happens that the people that you're constantly disparaging want to play the same game that CCP staff want to make and play; I do too, and I'm a non combatant.

Comedy gold.
It's far more plausible than the tinfoil hattery that you're spouting.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Salvos Rhoska
#182 - 2017-02-26 01:03:34 UTC
Suicide ganking, as I outlined earlier, is a very peculiar niche.

I dont know if it was intended, but it doesnt really matter.

It serves to introduce risk to HS, at absolute fatality to itself.

But.

Its only the attack ships in a suicide gank fleet that incur that.
That leaves the haulers and cargo-scanners.

Haulers already incur a suspect timer for looting the wreck, as does anyone else that grabs the loot.

Cargo-scanners, however, suffer no penalty for intrusively investigating a ships contents.

I move, again, to propose that cargo-scanning a ship in HS should incur a suspect timer.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2017-02-26 02:39:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Suicide ganking, as I outlined earlier, is a very peculiar niche.

I dont know if it was intended, but it doesnt really matter.

It serves to introduce risk to HS, at absolute fatality to itself.

But.

Its only the attack ships in a suicide gank fleet that incur that.
That leaves the haulers and cargo-scanners.

Haulers already incur a suspect timer for looting the wreck, as does anyone else that grabs the loot.

Cargo-scanners, however, suffer no penalty for intrusively investigating a ships contents.

I move, again, to propose that cargo-scanning a ship in HS should incur a suspect timer.


There are already counters to being scanned, ganking does not need even more nerfs.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#184 - 2017-02-26 02:46:16 UTC
Limiting Alpha characters to suspect-only status in high-sec wouldn't be a bad idea.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#185 - 2017-02-26 03:43:27 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Limiting Alpha characters to suspect-only status in high-sec wouldn't be a bad idea.
It isn't a good one either.

People have always used alts to gank, before alphas they used trials. Alphas are already down on DPS compared to what could be achieved with a focused skill plan on a trial character, why penalise them further?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#186 - 2017-02-26 03:55:20 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It isn't a good one either.

People have always used alts to gank, before alphas they used trials. Alphas are already down on DPS compared to what could be achieved with a focused skill plan on a trial character, why penalise them further?

Except previously they were always paid alts or limited trials.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#187 - 2017-02-26 04:09:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
It isn't a good one either.

People have always used alts to gank, before alphas they used trials. Alphas are already down on DPS compared to what could be achieved with a focused skill plan on a trial character, why penalise them further?

Except previously they were always paid alts or limited trials.
You could get more DPS out of a Catalyst with the time limited trial account than you can get with an alpha.

Not strictly within the spirit of the rules but it was done, and it was done with multiple trial accounts at the same time, as one expired the next was reaching peak DPS.

Alpha clones may well have slowed down account churn, because they don't expire.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
#188 - 2017-02-26 04:46:25 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Suicide ganking, as I outlined earlier, is a very peculiar niche.

I dont know if it was intended, but it doesnt really matter.

If you meditate really hard on that question and think about why there is a red security setting and a CONCORD game mechanic in the first place, maybe you will find it out on your own.
Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#189 - 2017-02-26 04:47:01 UTC


Eve does not support ganking. People who gank will lose their ship to concord. (think about what I am saying carefully.)

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie

Aaron
Eternal Frontier
#190 - 2017-02-26 05:07:25 UTC
Why do people keep complaining about ganking??

I've lost my patience with complainers. The gankers simply use a small window of opportunity in order to gank you, this is the delay it takes concord to respond. As gamers its your job to work out a way to close that window of opportunity. This is achieved by working with others and implementing logical tactics where u will be successful in avoiding or escaping from a gank.

There are consequences to going at it alone and listening to no one..you will not benefit. What ever you do in eve do it carefully and for god sake talk to someone with experience and listen to how they overcame obstacles and try it for yourself.

Fear no one, live life, be free, accept the truth, do not judge others, defend yourself, fight hard till the end, meditate on problems and be prosperous. Things to exist by. -- RAIN Arthie

Salvos Rhoska
#191 - 2017-02-26 11:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Suicide ganking, as I outlined earlier, is a very peculiar niche.

I dont know if it was intended, but it doesnt really matter.

It serves to introduce risk to HS, at absolute fatality to itself.

But.

Its only the attack ships in a suicide gank fleet that incur that.
That leaves the haulers and cargo-scanners.

Haulers already incur a suspect timer for looting the wreck, as does anyone else that grabs the loot.

Cargo-scanners, however, suffer no penalty for intrusively investigating a ships contents.

I move, again, to propose that cargo-scanning a ship in HS should incur a suspect timer.


There are already counters to being scanned, ganking does not need even more nerfs.


It doesnt nerf suicide ganking.
It doesnt remove the existing counters to being scanned.

It just makes scanning a suspect offense, thus creating more player opportunity to engage.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#192 - 2017-02-26 11:15:39 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


It doesnt nerf suicide ganking.


Of course it does.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:


It doesnt remove the existing counters to being scanned.


The question is why do we need more nerfs when there is already a counter.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It just makes scanning a suspect offense, thus creating more player opportunity to engage.


And this is just one more nerf to ganking that has yet to be justified. If you want to expand on content then expand upon scanning. Bring in stuff like scanning for contraband rather than nerfing already existing content.
Salvos Rhoska
#193 - 2017-02-26 11:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


It doesnt nerf suicide ganking.


Of course it does.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:


It doesnt remove the existing counters to being scanned.


The question is why do we need more nerfs when there is already a counter.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It just makes scanning a suspect offense, thus creating more player opportunity to engage.


And this is just one more nerf to ganking that has yet to be justified. If you want to expand on content then expand upon scanning. Bring in stuff like scanning for contraband rather than nerfing already existing content.

It does not nerf suicide ganking at all.
It makes zero change to the activity of attempting to destroy a target before CONCORD curbstomps you.

It doesnt nerf the means available to counter scanning at all.
You can still double wrap, fill cargo with trash lists, cloak, instawarp, use blockade runners etc.

It just makes scanning a suspect offense, as an intrusive act, so other players can destroy you.
This is good for generat7ng more ship destruction and aggression in HS.

If you want to intrusively gain info on the fit/cargo of a target, which is their private data, there should be consequences.
It is rational that this act should incur a suspect timer, just as looting someone elses wreck does.

Contraband scanning can be implemented separately, as a CONCORD and Customs sanctioned act, with a specific module that ONLY scans for contraband, and making the target a suspect if the scan identifies contraband.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#194 - 2017-02-26 11:30:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It does not nerf suicide ganking at all.
It makes zero change to the activity of attempting to destroy a target before CONCORD curbstomps you.


It makes them go suspect which means free to fire upon by anyone. Thats a nerf.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It doesnt nerf the means available to counter scanning at all.
You can still double wrap, fill cargo with trash lists, cloak, instawarp, use blockade runners etc.


Still doesnt change the fact that we already have very easy counters to being scanned, you have yet to tell us why further nerfs are required when we already have counters.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It just makes scanning a suspect offense, as an intrusive act, so other players can destroy you.
This is good for generat7ng more ship destruction and aggression in HS.


You are nerfing the people who are destroying ships. If you want more ship destruction then you should be targeting the very people you are trying to get more protection for.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Contraband scanning can be implemented separately, as a CONCORD and Customs sanctioned act, with a specific module that ONLY scans for contraband, and making the target a suspect if the scan identifies contraband.


We dont need a new mod, we have one that does the job already.
Salvos Rhoska
#195 - 2017-02-26 11:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Your arguments arent honest.

Suicide ganking is unaffected.
Means of avoiding scanning are unaffected.

The invasive act of prying into someone elses private data is met with a suspect timer, thus creating more surface area for aggression and ship destruction.

The difference between a ship/cargo scanner, and a contraband scanner, is that the former display the contents, whereas the latter only check whether yes/no there is contraband, in which case a suspect timer is activated on the smuggler.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#196 - 2017-02-26 11:55:45 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Your arguments arent honest.


There honest, you just don't like them.

At the end of the day we need more pvp content in highsec not further nerfs to what we have left.
Salvos Rhoska
#197 - 2017-02-26 11:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
baltec1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Your arguments arent honest.


There honest, you just don't like them.

At the end of the day we need more pvp content in highsec not further nerfs to what we have left.


Incurring a suspect timer for ship/cargo scanning directly leads to more pvp in HS.

Your arguments arent honest because you conflate suicide ganking, with ship/cargo scanning.
They are two separate acts and mechanics.
It is also dishonest to claim that enforcing a suspect timer on ship/cargo scanning would not increase surface area for player aggression in HS.

Pre-change, I can do nothing when someone intrusively inspects my ships contents.
Post-change, I can attack the player intrusively inspecting my ships contents, as can others.
There is no way whatsoever to claim that that does not constitute more pvp in HS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#198 - 2017-02-26 12:12:37 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:


Incurring a suspect timer for ship/cargo scanning directly leads to more pvp in HS.


What it does is make ship scanning incredibly hard and increases expenses. Ganking is already in near terminal decline, it does not need further nerfing.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Your arguments arent honest because you conflate suicide ganking, with ship/cargo scanning.
They are two separate acts and mechanics.


Who else scans cargo in highsec?

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It is also dishonest to claim that enforcing a suspect timer on ship/cargo scanning would not increase surface area for player aggression in HS.


It will reduce it because you are making ganking for profit much harder. If you want more pvp going on then why are you not looking at things such as the wholesale destruction to jetcan piracy and the anti-piracy that spawned? Why are you not looking at making mission running more competitive and disruptable? Why are you not looking to bring back the FW raids in highsec systems that we used to have?

More nerfs to ganking is not the answer to bringing more ship destruction to EVE..
Salvos Rhoska
#199 - 2017-02-26 12:35:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Incurring a suspect timer for invasively investigating someones private ship data, doesnt change suicide ganking.

You dont need to scan a ship, to suicide gank it.
Going suspect, does not prevent you from further scanning.
Going suspect from scanning, does not prevent you from suicide ganking either.

It is irratonal to claim that incurring a suspect timer for intrusively prying into another players ship, would reduce pvp in HS. It does the exact opposite. It creates pvp opportunities.

Pre-change, you cant do anything when you are scanned.
Post-change, you and others can attack the player that is scanning.

There is no way to claim that does not constitute increasing the surface area of pvp in HS.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#200 - 2017-02-26 12:47:34 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Incurring a suspect timer for invasively investigating someones private ship data, doesnt change suicide ganking.


Yes it does.
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

You dont need to scan a ship, to suicide gank it.


And how else are you going to target a ship for profit?

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Going suspect, does not prevent you from further scanning.


Your ship expolding does.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Going suspect from scanning, does not prevent you from suicide ganking either.


It hurts the process of selecting the target. Needing to replace your scanning ship every time you scan something mean that not only will ganking become more expensive and require even more work but it will also mean you cannot scan anywhere near as many ships simply because most of your time will be spent on timers, replacing ships and setting up again.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:

It is irratonal to claim that incurring a suspect timer for intrusively prying into another players ship, would reduce pvp in HS. It does the exact opposite. It creates pvp opportunities.

Pre-change, you cant do anything when you are scanned.
Post-change, you and others can attack the player that is scanning.


As I said you will force scanner ships into similar downtime as the gankers themselves face, increase cost, increase the effort required and reduce the effectiveness greatly. Less ganking will happen because of these things which means less pvp.

Again, nerfing pvp does not create more pvp.