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EULA questions.

First post
Author
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#41 - 2017-02-26 00:00:34 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
...DDOSing and Doxxing etc are the kinds of things that this rule is designed to cover, as is the infamous bonus room of Erotica1....

Erotica1's bonus room is a perfect example of crossing the line. (People who don't know what that was, it's a good one to look up). That's when CCP took a stance and beat somebody down with 6.C.16.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#42 - 2017-02-26 00:10:42 UTC
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
...DDOSing and Doxxing etc are the kinds of things that this rule is designed to cover, as is the infamous bonus room of Erotica1....

Erotica1's bonus room is a perfect example of crossing the line. (People who don't know what that was, it's a good one to look up). That's when CCP took a stance and beat somebody down with 6.C.16.
I'll point out for those unfamiliar with the affair that much of what went on in the bonus room would have been considered normal gameplay if Erotica1 had known when to stop.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Salvos Rhoska
#43 - 2017-02-26 01:30:18 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Khergit Deserters wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
...DDOSing and Doxxing etc are the kinds of things that this rule is designed to cover, as is the infamous bonus room of Erotica1....

Erotica1's bonus room is a perfect example of crossing the line. (People who don't know what that was, it's a good one to look up). That's when CCP took a stance and beat somebody down with 6.C.16.
I'll point out for those unfamiliar with the affair that much of what went on in the bonus room would have been considered normal gameplay if Erotica1 had known when to stop.


Yes, but she didnt, nor others involved, and it became obscene beyond the scope of even EVE.

The TOS/EULA are a paradox in game which allows so much levity as this one.
We have almost unlimited freedom as players, but CCP also has almost unlimited control.

CODE and many, many other actions and organizations have shown that CCP is famous in allowing as much freedom as reasonably possible.

We should all keep pushing the envelope in all directions.
But we also all must consider some modicum of human decency.

It is a game after all, and one we all share a love for.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#44 - 2017-02-26 03:29:04 UTC
Not the 'bonus room' again...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#45 - 2017-02-26 03:45:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
We're not discussing it, it is an example of something that would be dealt with under the rule the OP is misunderstanding.

Anyway nuff said on that subject... look.... kittens.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Amojin
Doomheim
#46 - 2017-02-27 19:13:45 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Eh, what's wrong with Linux's GPL? It offers you all the things you mentioned but makes sure the software stays free so the whole industry can profit from the improvements.

Do you use Windows to play EVE?


GPL is an artificial bottleneck to progress. Companies will not invest time and money into something they can't outright appropriate. The GPL is morally better, I grant you. But it's not, per se, better. Given the choice between making progress and having to share it, or making progress, and being able to copyright it, most choose to copyright it.

Darren Reed did exactly that with his internet packet filter, a firewall that all three BSD versions use. NetBSD, and FreeBSD accepted the limitations. OpenBSD did not, and rolled back their code to before Darren's change. Gutsy, and admirable, and perfectly legal.

I don't like Linux, or the GPL. They remind me too much of hippies. The Cathedral or the Bazaar? Yes, there is an article, about the Cathedral and the Bazaar. We're Cathedral.
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#47 - 2017-02-27 20:46:42 UTC
LouHodo wrote:

My point is that I can report you for anything I feel is offensive to me. This could be as much as me saying, I dont want to fight you I dont have time. And you spend the next 30seconds to 5min blowing my ship to confetti, after I said no. Well that would be unfun for me, but fun for you. This would interfere with my enjoyment of the game THUS against Rule 6, section C, item 16.




You seem to be missing the most important phrase in that rule - in order to be in violation of it someone has to be blocking your ability to enjoy the game. Not just causing it to be unfun right now, but actively and continuously blocking your ability to use the game and gain enjoyment from it. That's why things like following one guy around for months keeping him from undocking or what have you can be considered by CCP to be harassment under this rule. You are no longer impinging on his immediate fun, but on his actual ability to log in and have fun.

Here's the litmus test that I can just about guarantee CCP uses:

If this behavior is allowed to continue will it (in our opinion) cause harm to the game as a whole, or CCP's reputation?
If yes, here's your shiny ban. If no, let said activity continue, and retest as necessary until someone goes too far.

Any behavior is bannable - and I mean any - if CCP finds the context of that behavior to be bad for them as a company in terms of impacting their profit margin. To circle back to the previously mentioned unmentionable room of extras, that was the real reason bans were distributed with such furious vengeance after such a long time of no activity from the powers that be.

The activity started to garner negative press for the game, and in turn, for CCP. You think they'll ban you for buying ingame ISK? Impact their actual ISK and see how fast they "encourage" you to exercise your ability to have fun somewhere else.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#48 - 2017-02-27 23:35:43 UTC
I wouldn't mind CCP running the game in their completely arbitrary "the rules are whatever we say they are" way, if only they would make known the standards by which they make these decisions and rule on those standards consistently.

As it stands today, the actual rules are a secret and their enforcement depends on luck of the draw, as GMs all seem to have their own interpretations of the EULA.

In short the OP's general premise, that everything is against the EULA, is correct

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Amojin
Doomheim
#49 - 2017-02-28 00:30:21 UTC
Galaxy Pig wrote:
In short the OP's general premise, that everything is against the EULA, is correct


Yup. Whenverver any corporation wants to censor or punish you, you have already agreed to it, if you use their services.

This is why I agreed with Matt Drudge, don't get hauled into these ghettos. Make your own site.

But you really can't even do that, today. Drudge gets hits, today, not from a search engine, but because I type him in in the address bar.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#50 - 2017-02-28 06:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ima Wreckyou
Amojin wrote:
GPL is an artificial bottleneck to progress. Companies will not invest time and money into something they can't outright appropriate.

That is a very strange view given the whole industry is basically behind Linux today and it has become the most successful operating system in history (apart from the desktop OS which is the only thing most people see, and that's why they think Linux is niche).

Amojin wrote:
The GPL is morally better, I grant you. But it's not, per se, better. Given the choice between making progress and having to share it, or making progress, and being able to copyright it, most choose to copyright it.

It is not morally better, it's just a different set of freedoms. Both the BSD/MIT and the GPL have their uses. Most libraries I write are MIT while most applications where I want to make sure it stays open are GPL.

Amojin wrote:
I don't like Linux, or the GPL. They remind me too much of hippies. The Cathedral or the Bazaar? Yes, there is an article, about the Cathedral and the Bazaar. We're Cathedral.

Lol, that has absolutely nothing to do with hippies or the GP. Today you could say Github is the very manifestation of that Bazaar philosophy. Not sure what's not to like about that.

You did not actually answer my second question. Do you play on Windows?
LouHodo
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#51 - 2017-03-02 22:43:15 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
LouHodo wrote:

My point is that I can report you for anything I feel is offensive to me. This could be as much as me saying, I dont want to fight you I dont have time. And you spend the next 30seconds to 5min blowing my ship to confetti, after I said no. Well that would be unfun for me, but fun for you. This would interfere with my enjoyment of the game THUS against Rule 6, section C, item 16.




You seem to be missing the most important phrase in that rule - in order to be in violation of it someone has to be blocking your ability to enjoy the game. Not just causing it to be unfun right now, but actively and continuously blocking your ability to use the game and gain enjoyment from it. That's why things like following one guy around for months keeping him from undocking or what have you can be considered by CCP to be harassment under this rule. You are no longer impinging on his immediate fun, but on his actual ability to log in and have fun.

Here's the litmus test that I can just about guarantee CCP uses:

If this behavior is allowed to continue will it (in our opinion) cause harm to the game as a whole, or CCP's reputation?
If yes, here's your shiny ban. If no, let said activity continue, and retest as necessary until someone goes too far.

Any behavior is bannable - and I mean any - if CCP finds the context of that behavior to be bad for them as a company in terms of impacting their profit margin. To circle back to the previously mentioned unmentionable room of extras, that was the real reason bans were distributed with such furious vengeance after such a long time of no activity from the powers that be.

The activity started to garner negative press for the game, and in turn, for CCP. You think they'll ban you for buying ingame ISK? Impact their actual ISK and see how fast they "encourage" you to exercise your ability to have fun somewhere else.


No I am not missing it. I am just pointing out that it is flawed.

It has been already abused in some cases. In a few quick checks here and there, people have been warned and sited under 6.C.16 for use of mild language, killing someone elses NPC target, swooping in and taking loot that does not belong to them.

These are just a few cases I have found in a few weeks of research.

It is pretty amazing how broad reaching that rule is.

Sonya Corvinus
Grant Village
#52 - 2017-03-02 22:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Sonya Corvinus
LouHodo wrote:
So recently reading over the EULA, it has come to my attention there is a massive gap in the EULA.

Rule 6 section C, item 16, which states...

"You may not do anything that interferes with the ability of other EVE Online subscribers to enjoy the game or web site in accordance with its rules."

Technically anything anyone does IN game can effect another persons enjoyment, thus violate this rule.

This is by far the most obtuse rule I have seen in a EULA in a very long time. It is like saying, "Have fun, but dont have to much fun."

I suggest this rule be readdressed and or removed as it is just pointless in an open pvp atmosphere game like EVE.


It's basically "don't be a complete dickhead". It's common sense, but unfortunately a lot of people don't have that. Camping gates/stations? Fine. Hunting the same single person every day for five months just for the hell of it? You're an a**hole. Scamming someone? Fine. Getting them on comms and making fun of things about the IRL after? You're an a**hole. Every logical person knows that.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#53 - 2017-03-02 22:55:49 UTC
I recommend that it you think another player has interfered with your ability to enjoy the game, you should file a support ticket. Detail the circumstances, and site that rule in the EULA.

File early.

File often.

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Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#54 - 2017-03-02 23:05:25 UTC
Every EULA says the same thing; the owners of the game can do whatever they like, whenever they like.

That's why nobody reads them.

Apart from a few crazies.

No lawyer reads them, not even the ones who write them, they are just copy/pasta.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~

Zarek Kree
Lunatic Legion Holdings
#55 - 2017-03-03 00:31:31 UTC
In the military we have something called Article 134 of the UCMJ. Essentially it's the general article that prohibits "actions that are prejudicial to good order and discipline or bring discredit upon the armed forces" It's intentionally vague and gives the commander broad discretionary powers to punish actions that would have been prohibited if somebody had thought to address them specifically.

For example, I recently had a case in which a soldier posed as a movie casting director to get women to take off their clothes as part of an "audition." He never touched them and the women didn't do anything against their will - yet it clearly brought discredit upon the armed forces when it became known among his auditioners that he was an active duty soldier. This kind of thing is not okay among members of the military, yet no punishment would have been possible if not for Article 134.

Broad, non-specific discretionary powers can be abused, but the advantages far exceed the disadvantages in terms of justice. Especially if good appeals processes are present (as they are in the military as well as with CCP).
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