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Restrict players to ships of their faction (an end to meta-gaming)

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Amojin
Doomheim
#61 - 2017-02-21 23:45:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.



Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#62 - 2017-02-21 23:46:00 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, it's kinda unfair that I chose a race with the knowledge that race didn't matter, and now race suddenly matters.


And, now, we have it. You are not your character. Your character did not choose it's race. In character, it lived a life, and it is what it is, it had no choice. The fun, and the challenge, is in you taking that up, and making a good story of it, in a MU*, or in this case, a good showing with what you have.

And, if you couldn't all just meta-game, CCP would have a hell of a lot easier a time balancing this, wouldn't they?


Let me get this right...you are a role player who has jettisoned pretty much all of the back story, yeah?



not only did he jettison it but he replaced it with his head canon and convinced himself that its the real canon

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#63 - 2017-02-21 23:47:13 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.



Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.



and how is an ammarian going to just change to a dps ship in a shield fleet? he will just die do to not having logistics

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Amojin
Doomheim
#64 - 2017-02-21 23:47:17 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
if you really don't want to fly any race that isn't yours more power too you. if you can find a group of players that want to do this then form a corp around it, but don't make everyone else play how YOU want them to


It's not a matter of force. I asked a question, initially. WHY WOULD IT BE UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY YOUR RACE's SHIPS?

I don't, yet, see any answer as to why it's unfair - just unpopular because it would not be meta-gaming optimal.
Amojin
Doomheim
#65 - 2017-02-21 23:48:32 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.



Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.



and how is an ammarian going to just change to a dps ship in a shield fleet? he will just die do to not having logistics


Fly a Curse, or a Sentinel? You'll be targeted, and die, but not because you didn't have shield rep. You'll make an impact all out of proportion, if you're any good, right?
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#66 - 2017-02-21 23:48:58 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
if you really don't want to fly any race that isn't yours more power too you. if you can find a group of players that want to do this then form a corp around it, but don't make everyone else play how YOU want them to


It's not a matter of force. I asked a question, initially. WHY WOULD IT BE UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY YOUR RACE's SHIPS?

I don't, yet, see any answer as to why it's unfair - just unpopular because it would not be meta-gaming optimal.

It would be unfair because some very specific ships are best-in-class.

Also, more importantly, it'd be boring as **** if I could only fly one race.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#67 - 2017-02-21 23:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
if you really don't want to fly any race that isn't yours more power too you. if you can find a group of players that want to do this then form a corp around it, but don't make everyone else play how YOU want them to


It's not a matter of force. I asked a question, initially. WHY WOULD IT BE UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY YOUR RACE's SHIPS?

I don't, yet, see any answer as to why it's unfair - just unpopular because it would not be meta-gaming optimal.




it would be unfair to anyone who could not afford to pay for four acc as he would be at a disadvantage compared to those who could.



that answer good enough?


your idea further forces meta gaming not eliminates it

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#68 - 2017-02-21 23:49:58 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.



Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.

Except this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun, and you know what's not fun? Being locked out of half the fleets of your alliance because you have the wrong tank type.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#69 - 2017-02-21 23:51:02 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.

Can you explain to me how segregating players by the ships they can fly improves balance?

Give me a very specific, direct, example.

I repeat my question.
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#70 - 2017-02-21 23:51:47 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
This breaks pretty well everything.


No, it does not. It makes balancing a lot easier. The way this is set up, now, You poople cherry pick the best ship for the best scenario. No matter how realistic that would be.

Believe it or not, you don't have to have the best ship of any given role, to win. Do you?


So please explain my role as a minmatar logistics pilot in an armour based fleet. Or an amarrian pilot in a shield fleet.



Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.


So you want to put limits on a game that sells it self as having so few limits--i.e. is a sandbox? Do I have that right?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2017-02-21 23:52:15 UTC
Amojin wrote:


Much like in real life, you don't have a role. Not every scenario will have a role for you. What role does a preacher have in a bank?

None. Do you need a philosopher or an economist to sell a car? Maybe, if you are Minmatar, and you can't do your main role, maybe you can get in a dps ship, and kill ****? It won't be the end of the world.


So your idea literally boils down to 'if you are not the current racial flavour of the month, log off and play another game'?

There is no role for a minmatar or a caldari player in an armour hac fleet. there is no role for a gallente or an amarr player in a shield t3c fleet. There is no role for anyone but a gallente in a drone BS/HAC fleet.

Why is that good? How is actively preventing me from playing the game in the way that I want, flying the ships that I like with the people I enjoy shooting spaceships with going to encourage me to continue playing the game at all?
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2017-02-21 23:52:30 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
if you really don't want to fly any race that isn't yours more power too you. if you can find a group of players that want to do this then form a corp around it, but don't make everyone else play how YOU want them to


It's not a matter of force. I asked a question, initially. WHY WOULD IT BE UNFAIR TO MAKE YOU PLAY YOUR RACE's SHIPS?

I don't, yet, see any answer as to why it's unfair - just unpopular because it would not be meta-gaming optimal.

It's unfair because I chose a race back when race didn't matter, and now my race does matter. And unlike training for a ship that gets nerfed, I can't change that.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#73 - 2017-02-21 23:52:36 UTC
Too bad Amojin was not around when the DRF were putting Minmatar guns on Amarr ships. His head might have exploded.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#74 - 2017-02-21 23:52:44 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Except this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun, and you know what's not fun? Being locked out of half the fleets of your alliance because you have the wrong tank type.


See my thread about having to shield tank my miner. I don't see a hell of a lot of concern on anyone's part about my lack of fun in the exact same scenario...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2017-02-21 23:54:34 UTC
Rawketsled wrote:
Rawketsled wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Amojin wrote:

So why can't I buy one off my Minmatar friend? Because again capsuleers have no loyalty to the empires.


Because it would be balance-breaking. This is a game, it can only emulate real life, but it should do so when possible, and when not, code-wise, since that's how we're going in the real world, away from real people with wiz-bits, mandating canon, but code, the code is not as flexible. Such actions must need be banned, arbitrarily, for balance.

Can you explain to me how segregating players by the ships they can fly improves balance?

Give me a very specific, direct, example.

I repeat my question.


Yes, can you answer this?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Amojin
Doomheim
#76 - 2017-02-21 23:55:53 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

It's unfair because I chose a race back when race didn't matter, and now my race does matter. And unlike training for a ship that gets nerfed, I can't change that.


You chose, for meta-game reasons, and didn't pay attention to the most basic of the MMO choices? What race do you want to play?!

LOL
Lugh Crow-Slave
#77 - 2017-02-21 23:56:13 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Except this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun, and you know what's not fun? Being locked out of half the fleets of your alliance because you have the wrong tank type.


See my thread about having to shield tank my miner. I don't see a hell of a lot of concern on anyone's part about my lack of fun in the exact same scenario...


because anyone can train shields...

see where the difference is?

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#78 - 2017-02-21 23:56:41 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

It's unfair because I chose a race back when race didn't matter, and now my race does matter. And unlike training for a ship that gets nerfed, I can't change that.


You chose, for meta-game reasons, and didn't pay attention to the most basic of the MMO choices? What race do you want to play?!

LOL


I don't think you actually understand what metagaming even means in EVE.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#79 - 2017-02-21 23:57:21 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

It's unfair because I chose a race back when race didn't matter, and now my race does matter. And unlike training for a ship that gets nerfed, I can't change that.


You chose, for meta-game reasons, and didn't pay attention to the most basic of the MMO choices? What race do you want to play?!

LOL



.... how is that the most basic? not everyone is like you and dresses up even to jack off

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#80 - 2017-02-21 23:57:23 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Except this is a game, and it's supposed to be fun, and you know what's not fun? Being locked out of half the fleets of your alliance because you have the wrong tank type.


See my thread about having to shield tank my miner. I don't see a hell of a lot of concern on anyone's part about my lack of fun in the exact same scenario...


And in that discussion it was found that the shield tank was most likely there for game balance reasons. And your lack of fun is based on how you want to role-play the game. The rest of us are fine not putting that restriction on ourselves.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online