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Humanitarian Organizations
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Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#1 - 2017-02-21 17:54:14 UTC
So, in all the noise regarding the issue of MITG, et al. v. Sanxing, one theme that has perplexed me is that Sanxing is a humanitarian organization. Furthermore, that this quality should have provided them a shield for attack. (There is some debate on that last point.

I will suspend my normal glib and flippant tone for this thread to ask two questions. I am sure there will be varying opinions and thoughts, but this is good.

First Question: What is a Humanitarian Organization?

Second Question: Should a Humanitarian Organization be afforded some protection from attack, either in custom or de jure?

A brief snippet of another thread where this was discussed.

Kolodi Ramal wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Can someone explain to me what a humanitarian organization is? Just so we're on the same page.

Edit: I know I can be flippant. However, I would like to actually know what you mean by humanitarian organization. What defines it specifically?

It varies.
What it means when we describe Sanxing as a humanitarian organization:
Sanxing was created specifically to administer humanitarian aid to the population of the Jin-Mei homeplanet. The aid came from numerous parties through the Villore Assembly - the job of Sanxing was to disburse it. When the relief effort contributed to the Jin-Mei civil war reaching a ceasefire, our new jobs were to help rebuild and to facilitate peace negotiations. The rebuilding hasn't really depended on interstellar support for a little while now, and our facilitations are well in place, so we turned our capsuleer activity to nurturing the prosperity and security of Lirsautton, Ysiette, and the wider Federation when possible. All the while, our internal policies were designed to prioritize baseliner lives and concerns.

It was never for its own sake that Sanxing existed.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#2 - 2017-02-21 18:04:25 UTC
Here's my 2 isk.

I'd say there are two parts to being a humanitarian organisation - one is purpose and the second is execution.

An organisation is humanitarian when it was formed specifically for the purpose of humanitarian works and it retains that status for so long as it performs solely humanitarian works. This doesn't mean that non-humanitarian organisations can't do work that is humanitarian in nature - I-RED does a lot of humanitarian work, after all - but it wasn't formed for that purpose and it does work that isn't focused in that direction.

Should a humanitarian organisation be protected from attack? People will defend institutions that they are friendly to or who they think are important. At the end of the day, that is the sole reason that a group will be protected.

Quite often people will defend an institution that is relevant to their interests. I wouldn't, personally, defend a Gallente focused humanitarian organisation, because that is not relevant to my interests. I would be more likely to defend a Caldari focused humanitarian organisation, because it is.

The real question is the nature of humanitarian work. Sansha believe that their work is for the greater good - most of us would beg to differ. Ston's acolytes believed their work to be humanitarian and some people begged to differ there, too.

If someone's work strengthens an enemy or hurts an ally, it's difficult to view it as humanitarian.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Hetu Hegirin
Doomheim
#3 - 2017-02-21 18:19:55 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
If someone's work strengthens an enemy or hurts an ally, it's difficult to view it as humanitarian.

While difficult, I'd argue that it is also correct. A commonly-attributed tenet of humanitarianism is the promotion of the general welfare. Enemy or no, they are human. If they are in need and unable to provide for their own essential needs, such as medicine, shelter, or foodstuffs, their enemy status ought to be irrelevant to the humanitarian.

Of course, one could become muddled in proscriptive terminology. I will leave that to the academics.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#4 - 2017-02-21 18:56:56 UTC
There's only one thing that shields any capsuleer organization from attack and that's staying docked and never anchoring anything anywhere. Humanitarian or whatever else the group is doesn't really come into play there. There is no real protection from that and there really shouldn't be.

That is however an entirely different issue than what the attack says about the aggressors. Is it the right thing to do? Well obviously it's morally and ethically abhorrent to do these things for the reasons we've seen in the most recent example, particularly when it's couched in such pathetically transparent dishonesty.

Humanitarian organizations will of course differ from place to place. There are (or were) Imperial entities that called themselves humanitarian while performing acts people from less uncivilized nations would consider utterly inhuman and I'm sure there are similar examples in all four nations. They will go ignored or get destroyed, as such things go in New Eden, and there is nothing legally wrong with this as far as CONCORD and the DED goes. These organizations have no rights or protections beyond what everyone else does.

Should however those who prey on such organizations get off on that basis? Of course not. Any decent human being will recognize them for exactly what they are; Creatures that do not belong in civilized society. That they won't even be honest about their motivations or even their actions makes it even more pathetic.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#5 - 2017-02-21 19:02:43 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
There's only one thing that shields any capsuleer organization from attack and that's staying docked and never anchoring anything anywhere. Humanitarian or whatever else the group is doesn't really come into play there. There is no real protection from that and there really shouldn't be.

That is however an entirely different issue than what the attack says about the aggressors. Is it the right thing to do? Well obviously it's morally and ethically abhorrent to do these things for the reasons we've seen in the most recent example, particularly when it's couched in such pathetically transparent dishonesty.

Humanitarian organizations will of course differ from place to place. There are (or were) Imperial entities that called themselves humanitarian while performing acts people from less uncivilized nations would consider utterly inhuman and I'm sure there are similar examples in all four nations. They will go ignored or get destroyed, as such things go in New Eden, and there is nothing legally wrong with this as far as CONCORD and the DED goes. These organizations have no rights or protections beyond what everyone else does.

Should however those who prey on such organizations get off on that basis? Of course not. Any decent human being will recognize them for exactly what they are; Creatures that do not belong in civilized society. That they won't even be honest about their motivations or even their actions makes it even more pathetic.


There's already a thread for suggesting my mother sells her affections for fiduciary gain, Miz. You don't have to be an objectionable hypocrite in every single discussion. Unless that's simply who you are.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Ayallah
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2017-02-21 19:05:00 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Second Question: Should a Humanitarian Organization be afforded some protection from attack, either in custom or de jure?
Should is irrelevant. Unless an organization or coalition of organizations exists to punish those who attack humanitarian groups then they are not afforded anything.

Without force backing up a protection treaty of humanitarian groups then there is nothing to actually defend them but words. Words that will fail the moment someone wants something one of these groups have or just to kick them down.

Given the wealth of earnest but weak corperations that spring up to defend the innocent and fight piracy and then fade away I think we may still have a long time before some defender emerges capable of protecting non-combatant groups who cannot protect themselves.

But then it just becomes about who is in good standing or has the ISK.

Goddess of the IGS

As strength goes.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#7 - 2017-02-21 19:06:55 UTC
First Question: What is a Humanitarian Organization?

Second Question: Should a Humanitarian Organization be afforded some protection from attack, either in custom or de jure?

Answer 1:
A Humanitarian Organisation is one whose sole or primary mission is the betterment of all of humankind, rather than amassing territory, wealth, knowledge, or other things.
Religious missionaries, such as my own, glorious, organisation could be classed as such, depending on your point of view, as we seek the betterment of all, regardless of racial origin or social standing, through the power of conversion to being one of God's Chosen.
Some may disagree, but, well, they're wrong. Hurr.

Answer 2:
Civilian vessels, engaged on civilian missions, belonging to humanitarian organisations should receive some level of protection in custom - being given a warning to leave a conflict zone, rather than being fired upon without warning.
And providing relief when there is a disaster, then those vessels should generally be allowed to proceed unmolested.
Smuggling arms or couriering military equipment, renders humanitarian status null and void - they have become involved in the relevant conflict, and cannot expect protection either by custom or by law.

However, this situation is greatly complicated by the nature of humanitarian organisations.

Delivering supplies to a besieged planet for example, would allow the defenders to hold out longer, possibly long enough to be relieved. This constitutes interference in a conflict, and thusly, renders humanitarian status null and void.

Evacuating the sick, wounded, or civilians, from a conflict zone, it could be argued that it should be protected, as those persons are no longer combatants, however, their removal from a besieged planet would allow the defenders to make their existing supplies last longer, which it can be argued constitutes interference in the conflict.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#8 - 2017-02-21 19:07:12 UTC
@ Pieter: Come silence me like you did the others that said things you didn't like. Well, try at any rate.

Or is that just something you do when they can barely fight back?
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2017-02-21 19:09:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
@ Pieter: Come silence me like you did the others that said things you didn't like. Well, try at any rate.

Or is that just something you do when they can barely fight back?


You want to send your second to talk to my second? You want to pick the weapons and a time and place? Shall we have equally fitted frigates and meet at the star in a pre-arranged system?

Miz, you're already kill on sight to just about everyone I know. What do you think you just changed? You don't silence capsuleers by killing a ship or a POCO or a Citadel. Did you hit your head recently? You never used to be this stupid.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#10 - 2017-02-21 19:13:39 UTC
@ Pieter: So no wardec and trying to take on my corporation or alliance's assets? Just going to whine at me on the forums instead? I mean, I've pretty much done exactly the same things your latest targets did. I've sent mails, I've spoken the truth about you and so on. This was enough to justify the war then, so I wonder what is different now?

Maybe that you don't actually have the ******* guts to take on organizations that aren't largely non-combat entities, so instead you whine here when called on your nonsense.

Hypocrisy indeed. Coward.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#11 - 2017-02-21 19:18:15 UTC
Back on point, would SERAPH be categorized as a humanitarian organization? We fight the Drifters for the betterment of humanity. I could argue that this service is a public good.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#12 - 2017-02-21 19:28:36 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Back on point, would SERAPH be categorized as a humanitarian organization? We fight the Drifters for the betterment of humanity. I could argue that this service is a public good.


Not quite, by the textbook definitions. Humanitarian Organizations are those that perform humanitarian aid. This is most often considered to be material, logistics and medical aid to people in need. Fighting the Drifters may lead to the betterment of humanity in general, but the means are very different. It's a militaristic organization.

However, this isn't taking capsuleer life in general into account. We differ from the baseliner organizations in many respects, one of them being that combat is part of almost all our lives. Even the humblest miner will likely be in combat with pirates or other capsuleers at some point, so there's the question if this particular distinction between us and baseliners stretch so far as to make combat operations something we can include in 'humanitarian aid'.

I don't think it does, for one because it dilutes the language to the point of nigh gibberish, and secondly because we are fully able to divide between these parts of our lives and careers, as combat operations can be incidental, intentional, aggressive or defensive and doesn't necessarily have to be taken into account when we define ourselves as humanitarian organizations or not.

An organization that solely defends itself from aggression or perhaps supplements their humanitarian efforts with adding security operations against pirates and so on can be considered humanitarian as long as this combat isn't the main means or activity as it were. So, I think we can as far as capsuleers go consider something like this a rule of thumb; Humanitarian Organizations primarily focus on humanitarian aid, combat operations are either related or unrelated to this main focus.

Simple enough, but of course New Eden doesn't do 'simple' so there'll probably be a hundred arguments that can prove me very wrong here.
Lunarisse Aspenstar
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#13 - 2017-02-21 19:30:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lunarisse Aspenstar
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Back on point, would SERAPH be categorized as a humanitarian organization? We fight the Drifters for the betterment of humanity. I could argue that this service is a public good.


I would completely agree Seraph could and should be so defined, even if i have to use *she grits her teeth as to having to cite Valerie Valate* Dr. Valate's definition "A Humanitarian Organisation is one whose sole or primary mission is the betterment of all of humankind, rather than amassing territory, wealth, knowledge, or other things." The drifter threat, threatens all of mankind and Seraph's efforts are a noble one and worthy of the highest praise.

I think Pieter's definition is a bit circular as the definition of humanitarian is highly subjective. There are many different kinds of humanitarian services depending on the worldviews involved and the ends sought to be improved for mankind, or the societies, in question, e.g. spreading a faith, combating disease and poverty, eradication of threats to civilization. What is humanitarian for some, may not be for others. I think trying to define the term will be very hard, let alone any consistent treatment for such a diverse array of entities beyond those in general for capsuleer organizations.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#14 - 2017-02-21 19:38:04 UTC
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Back on point, would SERAPH be categorized as a humanitarian organization? We fight the Drifters for the betterment of humanity. I could argue that this service is a public good.


That would kind of open the door to anybody who's engaged in what they consider "the good fight" calling themselves "humanitarian." For example, both PIE and Ushra'Khan would probably be able to justify a claim that way. It'd get a little absurd in a hurry.

Really I'm not sure you get to call yourself "humanitarian" while shooting at anybody at all, even if you're not shooting at things widely thought of as "people". There are a lot of people around who dispute the humanity of their opponents.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#15 - 2017-02-21 19:40:56 UTC
By such a definition, I would say Nation qualifies. Only goes to show how subjective the definition can be.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#16 - 2017-02-21 19:41:57 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
Back on point, would SERAPH be categorized as a humanitarian organization? We fight the Drifters for the betterment of humanity. I could argue that this service is a public good.


That would kind of open the door to anybody who's engaged in what they consider "the good fight" calling themselves "humanitarian." For example, both PIE and Ushra'Khan would probably be able to justify a claim that way. It'd get a little absurd in a hurry.

Really I'm not sure you get to call yourself "humanitarian" while shooting at anybody at all, even if you're not shooting at things widely thought of as "people". There are a lot of people around who dispute the humanity of their opponents.


That makes capsuleer life rather difficult though. Combat is very much part of our lives, even for most non-combat entities. I still say that if the primary activity of the organization is humanitarian aid and efforts, that counts. There is of course risk of this being utilized as a veil for nastier activities, but that's pretty much the case anyway.

Combat is very much part of almost all capsuleer organizations, but as long as it's not the main activity it shouldn't necessarily detract from the main focus of the organization.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#17 - 2017-02-21 19:44:33 UTC
So, some combat is allowed, so long as it is not the primary focus, Ms. Del'thul?

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2017-02-21 19:44:57 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
By such a definition, I would say Nation qualifies. Only goes to show how subjective the definition can be.


Yeah. This. ... I think we're really better off restricting it to organizations who DO focus on medical care, peace initiatives, and so on, and DO NOT shoot things or people.

"Long live the humanitarians, and death to our enemies!" is not a battle cry I want to hear very much.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#19 - 2017-02-21 19:46:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Combat is very much part of our lives, even for most non-combat entities.


In that case, Miz, maybe we just shouldn't go around easily calling ourselves humanitarians.
Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#20 - 2017-02-21 19:49:19 UTC
I want to clarify that I am very interested in the debate and viewpoints. I doubt there will ever be one answer everyone is happy with.

It's just a word that I've seen used a few times and found interesting. Also, the Sisters of EVE might be considered humanitarian, but I tell you, they are up to some shady stuff.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.
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