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[March] Mobile Warp Disruptor changes

First post First post First post
Author
Cade Windstalker
#281 - 2017-03-07 02:59:10 UTC
Bammari Spazedust wrote:
That's a reasonable point. My rebuttal would be that if the bubble dying anyway, what is the difference how they die? If the goal is to clean up the bubble mess then putting the limited lifetime solves the problem without unnecessary complications.


Yes, but that's not the only reason to give bubbles KMs. Part of it's because people want better tracking of ISK spent towards a goal, and part of it is that bubbles are sometimes going to need to be shot (or be the only thing available to be shot) and it's nice to have some measure of acknowledgement from the game that you bothered to grind through the like three brick-tanked Rokhs that make up a standard T1 Large Bubble.

Bammari Spazedust wrote:
65m3 is what is needed now. If the bubbles are constantly being destroyed then potentially many times 65m3 would be needed, which would indeed be a problem for solo roamers. I don't think anyone is saying the space needed before this change is an undo burden.


That's only true if you're dropping your bubble and leaving for some reason, in which case you can bring another back with you when you return. If you're on-grid and fighting someone and they choose to kill your bubble instead that's pretty much flatly a dumb decision on their part.

The only time I can remotely think of where it would be smarter to shoot the bubble than the guy killing you is if you were in a Capital for some reason, can't kill the guy shooting you, and he can't kill you, and the bubble is the only thing keeping you tackle. That's such a niche case though, and has *literally* nothing to do with the current changes, it would still be the right decision right now on TQ, that it's basically irrelevant to this discussion.

If you have another non-edge-case for why bubbles should die more often while actively in use because of these changes then please fire away.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#282 - 2017-03-07 07:09:21 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Bammari Spazedust wrote:
...
I don't know where your assumption that the problem with constant and quick loss of bubbles is a kill mail issue rather than a logistical one comes from, but the problem with the KMs to which I refer is that you are artificailly incentivizing the killing of bubbles and thereby creating a logistical nightmare for solo nullsec roam/campers.

If solo isn't your play style then grats on not having to care about this. But if you do happen to be one affected by this then it is an unnecessary and possibly unintended problem that needs to be pointed out to the powers that be.


I think a large part of the point of this change is to make it harder to keep a gate bubbled indefinitely.

Also part of the request for KMs has always been to give someone a reward for the job of killing the mess of bubbles that clogs up half the gates in Null. Since bubbles will now decay that incentivizes not taking the time and wasting the ammo to kill a bubble.

Raven Ship wrote:
Only reasonable way to change mobile bubble's is to make them act like Control Towers,
that even when shield sphere is turned off, still need to be shoot down,
at same time, make them run on liquid ozone,
in volume like 140k m3 per month for largest T2, and at same time let them hold month of fuel.
Reinforce them to level of Control Tower, or do not give killmail's for shooting them down.

That way it is win-win situation, as someone who had to spend shitload of time and effort to place them,
will be in similar situation as someone who come and shoot them, and for attacker benefit would be in volume of liquid ozone,
fuel in volume he will have to struggle same as did one who deploy them did.
Also I don't accept counter argument that pvp ships have no cargo to carry it, industry ships have no guns to shoot with pvp ships also, so make those pew pew guys field purpose ships for a change!


The whole point of this is to make it difficult to keep a gate bubbled more or less indefinitely with no effort, not to keep it easy and massively buff their HP.

It takes literally 30 seconds to kick a bubble out of your ship and anchor it. That in no way justifies giving bubbles millions of HP.

Also the whole argu space argument is basically ridiculous. A small bubble takes 65m3, a Frigate can fit that.


Asked you forum spammer to keep away, you do not know what you speak about, just spam whole day long.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#283 - 2017-03-07 13:55:54 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:

Asked you forum spammer to keep away, you do not know what you speak about, just spam whole day long.


Why do you need bubbles that last for a month or more?
Bammari Spazedust
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#284 - 2017-03-07 20:42:46 UTC
Quote:
If you have another non-edge-case for why bubbles should die more often while actively in use because of these changes then please fire away.


Ok, let me describe how I use small bubbles. I'll roam in my frigate, carrying a small bubble or sometimes two. Occasionally I'll pick a system gate to place a stop bubble. As traffic flows through, once in a while a good target for me to fight will land in the bubble, but between these instances will be large and small gangs and larger solo ships I can't handle flowing through. I of course fly to a perch when I see something coming that I can't handle. As it stands now, they sometimes kill my bubble if they are annoyed enough, but more often they just ignore it and move on. They currently have no reason to kill it.

After this change, they will have a reason to kill it and they almost inevitably will. If you think people will not spend a minute to get a free km, regardless of how meaningless it really is, then we do not play the same game. If I am right about this then my entire paradigm will collapse. I am not in the majority in my play style, but I am certainly not alone in it either and certainly wouldn't characterize it as fringe play (is there anyone in null who has not run into someone who does this?)

My point is that if the goal of cleaning up bubble messes can be achieved without screwing with this and other similar play styles, why not just take the more limited approach?



(As an aside, why are KMs generated for anything at all that doesn't shoot back? /boggle)
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#285 - 2017-03-07 20:54:05 UTC
Bammari Spazedust wrote:
Quote:
If you have another non-edge-case for why bubbles should die more often while actively in use because of these changes then please fire away.


Ok, let me describe how I use small bubbles. I'll roam in my frigate, carrying a small bubble or sometimes two. Occasionally I'll pick a system gate to place a stop bubble. As traffic flows through, once in a while a good target for me to fight will land in the bubble, but between these instances will be large and small gangs and larger solo ships I can't handle flowing through. I of course fly to a perch when I see something coming that I can't handle. As it stands now, they sometimes kill my bubble if they are annoyed enough, but more often they just ignore it and move on. They currently have no reason to kill it.

After this change, they will have a reason to kill it and they almost inevitably will. If you think people will not spend a minute to get a free km, regardless of how meaningless it really is, then we do not play the same game. If I am right about this then my entire paradigm will collapse. I am not in the majority in my play style, but I am certainly not alone in it either and certainly wouldn't characterize it as fringe play (is there anyone in null who has not run into someone who does this?)

My point is that if the goal of cleaning up bubble messes can be achieved without screwing with this and other similar play styles, why not just take the more limited approach?



(As an aside, why are KMs generated for anything at all that doesn't shoot back? /boggle)


What if the bubbles EHP was modified as long as it's owner is on grid and not cloaked? I have absolutely no idea if this is at all possible but I'm fishing for at least an opinion. Making ti harder to kill when it is "manned" while rather flimsy when "abandoned".
Cade Windstalker
#286 - 2017-03-07 21:50:40 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Asked you forum spammer to keep away, you do not know what you speak about, just spam whole day long.


If you want me to stop disagreeing with you then refute my arguments instead of just yelling random insults at me Roll

Bammari Spazedust wrote:
Ok, let me describe how I use small bubbles. I'll roam in my frigate, carrying a small bubble or sometimes two. Occasionally I'll pick a system gate to place a stop bubble. As traffic flows through, once in a while a good target for me to fight will land in the bubble, but between these instances will be large and small gangs and larger solo ships I can't handle flowing through. I of course fly to a perch when I see something coming that I can't handle. As it stands now, they sometimes kill my bubble if they are annoyed enough, but more often they just ignore it and move on. They currently have no reason to kill it.

After this change, they will have a reason to kill it and they almost inevitably will. If you think people will not spend a minute to get a free km, regardless of how meaningless it really is, then we do not play the same game. If I am right about this then my entire paradigm will collapse. I am not in the majority in my play style, but I am certainly not alone in it either and certainly wouldn't characterize it as fringe play (is there anyone in null who has not run into someone who does this?)

My point is that if the goal of cleaning up bubble messes can be achieved without screwing with this and other similar play styles, why not just take the more limited approach?



(As an aside, why are KMs generated for anything at all that doesn't shoot back? /boggle)


Okay, fair points.

Last one first, because that's easiest. KMs are generated for things because people have requested that they be. At their most fundamental KMs are a way of tracking losses and things that don't shoot back are still losses.

As to the rest, I'll admit that's a valid case and not one I'd considered, but I don't think it necessarily requires KMs to be removed from bubbles to balance this out. Sure there will probably be an uptick in killing bubbles for a while, but I don't think everyone is going to do it because what most roaming groups are after is, fundamentally, a good fight.

If it really does become that much of a problem then CCP can buff bubble HP to make it less worthwhile to kill bubbles people are actually using.
WIll Motsu
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
#287 - 2017-03-08 18:52:55 UTC
Killmails really?... Fighters, now the mining drones and the mobile warp disruptor's. I think you should go out and kill a ship if you want a killmail.
Raven Ship
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#288 - 2017-03-09 05:59:07 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:
Asked you forum spammer to keep away, you do not know what you speak about, just spam whole day long.


If you want me to stop disagreeing with you then refute my arguments instead of just yelling random insults at me


Not going to repeat myself all over place, you are spammer on this forum, and as every spam, there is no point in reading it. Also if your behave insult you, then change it.
Henry Plantgenet
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#289 - 2017-03-09 13:25:04 UTC
The killmails for bubbles will only incentivise bubble placers to buy a bubble permit from your local CAS Agent.
They are inexpensive licenses that will guarentee the holder that his bubble won't be blown up by me Roll
And besides Destroying a bubble destroys an assets and destroyed assets need a value tracker hence killmails.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#290 - 2017-03-09 14:11:53 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:


Not going to repeat myself all over place, you are spammer on this forum, and as every spam, there is no point in reading it. Also if your behave insult you, then change it.


All your post in this thread except one were either try to call out pseudo pyfa/EFT warrior or just calling people spammers.

Your post which was not empty of actual discussion content was this one.

Raven Ship wrote:
Only reasonable way to change mobile bubble's is to make them act like Control Towers,
that even when shield sphere is turned off, still need to be shoot down,
at same time, make them run on liquid ozone,
in volume like 140k m3 per month for largest T2, and at same time let them hold month of fuel.
Reinforce them to level of Control Tower, or do not give killmail's for shooting them down.

That way it is win-win situation, as someone who had to spend shitload of time and effort to place them,
will be in similar situation as someone who come and shoot them, and for attacker benefit would be in volume of liquid ozone,
fuel in volume he will have to struggle same as did one who deploy them did.
Also I don't accept counter argument that pvp ships have no cargo to carry it, industry ships have no guns to shoot with pvp ships also, so make those pew pew guys field purpose ships for a change!


I already asked a question about your point of view but you seem to be completely unable to discus. I will still give you the ebenfit of doubt that you might have missed my question so I will ask again.

Why do you need bubbles that last for a month if not more?
Cade Windstalker
#291 - 2017-03-09 18:24:15 UTC
Raven Ship wrote:
Not going to repeat myself all over place, you are spammer on this forum, and as every spam, there is no point in reading it. Also if your behave insult you, then change it.


I'm not spamming, and I'm certainly not going to stop posting because someone yelled at me after refusing to read what I wrote Lol

If you want me to admit I'm wrong and stop advocating a view point then convince me. I promise it's not hard, provided you have facts and evidence to back up your viewpoint, as opposed to yelling about how idiotic something is, how it's too much, or how you just disagree with it. None of those are evidence, and insults certainly aren't. Roll
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#292 - 2017-03-09 20:54:37 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:


...


I already asked a question about your point of view but you seem to be completely unable to discus. I will still give you the ebenfit of doubt that you might have missed my question so I will ask again.

Why do you need bubbles that last for a month if not more?

He wrote this on page 2 or 3 already: he is putting one bubble on each gate on constellation. Said it is about 50 bubbles. In this case doing it every 2 days will kill anyone Big smile

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Cade Windstalker
#293 - 2017-03-09 21:16:49 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
He wrote this on page 2 or 3 already: he is putting one bubble on each gate on constellation. Said it is about 50 bubbles. In this case doing it every 2 days will kill anyone Big smile


That was a different forum alt/rage poster, though I suspect you're right and this person has a similar use case in mind...
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#294 - 2017-03-09 21:38:05 UTC
Good Change, I'm happy that decloak citadels / POSs in wormhole space will be generally boned by this.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#295 - 2017-03-10 01:02:24 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Raven Ship wrote:


...


I already asked a question about your point of view but you seem to be completely unable to discus. I will still give you the ebenfit of doubt that you might have missed my question so I will ask again.

Why do you need bubbles that last for a month if not more?

He wrote this on page 2 or 3 already: he is putting one bubble on each gate on constellation. Said it is about 50 bubbles. In this case doing it every 2 days will kill anyone Big smile
Thing he keeps missing is, he doesn't have to do it alone! Anyone in the corp with anchoring skills can re-anchor the bubbles, travelling time would be the mind numbing "I want to kill myself" factor.

And if he is only using 1 bubble per gate he is completely under utilizing them. Unless that one bubble is manned constantly it is pointless, even most battleships will get out of it faster than he can warp his miners out to safety. Intel on who is coming for you is what makes bubbled gates useful, if you don't have eyes throughout the constellation you're better off just bubbling the system you're in.
One bubble on each gate tells the hunter - He is getting close to his target area, just follow the bubbles (best intel ever).

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Fred Flintst0ne
Deep South Confederate Rebel Corp
#296 - 2017-03-10 05:06:46 UTC
I know the POS is slated to be removed due to citadels at some point. However, having bubbles anchored near the guns on the sides have trapped and subsequently killed players even while we are offline. Will they pop after the timer or just become unanchored? Also, will the price drop and or will the materials be less costly. They are of strategic value for the POS setup with top and bottom warp in positions off grid. I know there are a lot that need to be cleaned up, but again. this is of valuable tactical use in a siege situation as well as teaching noobs not to warp to a POS.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#297 - 2017-03-10 06:58:29 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
He wrote this on page 2 or 3 already: he is putting one bubble on each gate on constellation. Said it is about 50 bubbles. In this case doing it every 2 days will kill anyone Big smile


That was a different forum alt/rage poster, though I suspect you're right and this person has a similar use case in mind...

Yeah, sorry. That was Orca Platipus What?

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#298 - 2017-03-10 13:41:59 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
He wrote this on page 2 or 3 already: he is putting one bubble on each gate on constellation. Said it is about 50 bubbles. In this case doing it every 2 days will kill anyone Big smile


That was a different forum alt/rage poster, though I suspect you're right and this person has a similar use case in mind...


I literally went through the user's posting history to be sure I didn't miss any. It really feel like asking question to a wall of brick now...
Cade Windstalker
#299 - 2017-03-10 15:37:58 UTC
Fred Flintst0ne wrote:
I know the POS is slated to be removed due to citadels at some point. However, having bubbles anchored near the guns on the sides have trapped and subsequently killed players even while we are offline. Will they pop after the timer or just become unanchored? Also, will the price drop and or will the materials be less costly. They are of strategic value for the POS setup with top and bottom warp in positions off grid. I know there are a lot that need to be cleaned up, but again. this is of valuable tactical use in a siege situation as well as teaching noobs not to warp to a POS.


I believe nerfing this sort of AFK-use of bubbles is part of the idea of this change.

To answer your question bubbles pop when the timer runs out, they don't just de-anchor.
Captain Campion
Campion Corp.
#300 - 2017-03-12 12:44:40 UTC
Why do bubbles have sensor strength? Can you actually jam one?