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Why In the World is The Excavator Mining Drones Still Obsuredly Priced
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Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#61 - 2017-02-18 01:02:28 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?



In short, because ships are overpriced, thats why :)


They aren't, your math is just bad... the *actual* margin on making a ship is the difference between the sale price of the ship and the sale price of the materials you used to make the ship.

If you're basing the mineral rates you pay your corp members off of this ridiculous math you are, in fact, scamming them.


Who said anything about minerals......I buy the rocks, and my price has not changed in quite awhile for just veldspar.....

220 per m3.....10 rocks thats 22 per rock, if prices rise back up near that i just go back to my original pricing, 250 per m3...which is 25 per rock, and where my original formula calcs come from.

Just because you do not understand how to do Indy (manufacturing for profit) is not my fault.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#62 - 2017-02-18 01:19:15 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Hmmm, ok

10/20 Dominix print = 13,896,192 minerals
Production Cost = 6,298,844
6,298,844/13,896,192 = .45 ISK per mineral

10/20 catalyst print = 66,168 minerals
Production Cost = 33,227
33,227/66,168 = .50 ISK per mineral

So mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK each according to game mechnics.


Nope, you have once again missed the point.

This is the API dump for Tritanium:

    {
      "adjustedPrice": 3.81,
      "averagePrice": 4.48,
      "type": {
        "id_str": "34",
        "href": "https://crest-tq.eveonline.com/inventory/types/34/",
        "id": 34,
        "name": "Tritanium"
      }
    }


Note the "adjustedPrice" entry. That is what is used when calculating the job cost on an item. The job cost is a function of the value of the materials, it is *not* a value for those materials itself.

That value is calculated from the base price of the job, which is that "adjustedPrice" for each material times the base quantity on the blueprint, independent of any ME or TE adjustements, and then multiplied by the "systemCostIndex".

You can see this in action via FuzzySteve's Blueprint calculator by changing the system around. For example Jita has a fairly high systemCostIndex where as some back-end system in Low or Null has a low one.

So yeah, job install cost is not the value of those minerals. The game's definition of the value of those minerals is determined by what players are buying and selling them for.

So no, minerals aren't free, they cost time to mine and there is an opportunity cost in putting them into something vs selling them. The value of anything made in Eve should always be compared to the value you could get for just selling the components directly on the market.


1.) you do not mine minerals
2.) Mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK, or free basically because you do not MINE them.
3.) My original statements had nothing to do with the Market.
4.) My experience and experimentation with projects vs man hrs required vs profits and costs still trumps what ever you are trying to say.

Go ahead show a real formula, something you put together yourself has i have been doing.
I am telling you, I already put in the math(leg) work and i know what i am talking about if you really want to discuss the demographics on the stupidity of buying minerals off the market.
Cade Windstalker
#63 - 2017-02-18 02:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Max Deveron wrote:
1.) you do not mine minerals
2.) Mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK, or free basically because you do not MINE them.
3.) My original statements had nothing to do with the Market.
4.) My experience and experimentation with projects vs man hrs required vs profits and costs still trumps what ever you are trying to say.

Go ahead show a real formula, something you put together yourself has i have been doing.
I am telling you, I already put in the math(leg) work and i know what i am talking about if you really want to discuss the demographics on the stupidity of buying minerals off the market.


1. You mine ore whose only purpose is to be refined into minerals. You are mining minerals, to claim otherwise is just pure pedantry.

2. Mechanically speaking something is worth whatever people are willing to pay on the market for it. Short of NPC buy orders for a very few goods items in-game have no value beyond what other players are willing to pay for them.

3. Then your original statement was nonsense, because the value you quoted (the install cost of a job) is based on the market price of the items that go into that job.

4. No, it really really doesn't. Just because you've built things doesn't make your math right. Your math is terrible.

Which brings me to the next bit here...

Max Deveron wrote:
Who said anything about minerals......I buy the rocks, and my price has not changed in quite awhile for just veldspar.....

220 per m3.....10 rocks thats 22 per rock, if prices rise back up near that i just go back to my original pricing, 250 per m3...which is 25 per rock, and where my original formula calcs come from.

Just because you do not understand how to do Indy (manufacturing for profit) is not my fault.


Yeah.... you're over-paying for Veld massively, and Veldspar has never been worth what you're paying for it.

At your price a full refine of Veldspar would be 2,200 ISK, which refines into 415 Tritanium. That Tritanium sells for, at most right now, 1689.05 ISK at the current Jita sell price. That means for every 100 Veldspar you buy and refine into Trit you're losing about 511 ISK in profit you could have made if you'd just bought off the market.

Your numbers are pure fantasy sir. If you want to pay your people that then by all means, I'm all for over-paying miners, but don't pretend there's some magical math formula you have that justifies this based on job install costs, and don't go saying that minerals on the market are over-priced when you're over-paying for them. You could be buying minerals directly for less than you're paying for them off your miners, and you are almost definitely paying more in minerals than you are making off of a T1 hull.
Kaldi Tsukaya
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#64 - 2017-02-18 02:17:37 UTC
Lol you people.

I put a rain barrel outside. It collects water. I filter it and put into bottles with a fancy label. Sell for big $.

How much did that water cost me?
How much is water actually worth?
What are my true costs for calculation of profit?


The Excavator drones will sell for whatever people will pay for them.
The materials to build them will cost whatever people will pay for them.
I sold all my Drone AI's and made a ton of Isk.
I collected them at no cost, whatsoever.
Pure unadulterated profit.
I love EveBlink
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#65 - 2017-02-18 02:17:53 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
1.) you do not mine minerals
2.) Mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK, or free basically because you do not MINE them.
3.) My original statements had nothing to do with the Market.
4.) My experience and experimentation with projects vs man hrs required vs profits and costs still trumps what ever you are trying to say.

Go ahead show a real formula, something you put together yourself has i have been doing.
I am telling you, I already put in the math(leg) work and i know what i am talking about if you really want to discuss the demographics on the stupidity of buying minerals off the market.


1. You mine ore whose only purpose is to be refined into minerals. You are mining minerals, to claim otherwise is just pure pedantry.

2. Mechanically speaking something is worth whatever people are willing to pay on the market for it. Short of NPC buy orders for a very few goods items in-game have no value beyond what other players are willing to pay for them.

3. Then your original statement was nonsense, because the value you quoted (the install cost of a job) is based on the market price of the items that go into that job.

4. No, it really really doesn't. Just because you've built things doesn't make your math right. Your math is terrible.

Which brings me to the next bit here...

Max Deveron wrote:
Who said anything about minerals......I buy the rocks, and my price has not changed in quite awhile for just veldspar.....

220 per m3.....10 rocks thats 22 per rock, if prices rise back up near that i just go back to my original pricing, 250 per m3...which is 25 per rock, and where my original formula calcs come from.

Just because you do not understand how to do Indy (manufacturing for profit) is not my fault.


Yeah.... you're over-paying for Veld massively, and Veldspar has never been worth what you're paying for it.

At your price a full refine of Veldspar would be 2,200 ISK, which refines into 415 Tritanium. That Tritanium sells for, at most right now, 1689.05 ISK at the current Jita sell price. That means for every 100 Veldspar you buy and refine into Trit you're losing about 511 ISK in profit you could have made if you'd just bought off the market.

Your numbers are pure fantasy sir. If you want to pay your people that then by all means, I'm all for over-paying miners, but don't pretend there's some magical math formula you have that justifies this based on job install costs. You could be buying minerals directly for less than you're paying for them off your miners, and you are almost definitely paying more in minerals than you are making off of a T1 hull.


1.) There is a difference between minerals and ore yes? 1 item in the database is different than the other?
2.) Mechanically speaking = true worth or game mechanics, not the value YOU or anybody else places on it, mechanically speaking every single mineral is less than 1 isk.
3.) my original statement was mechanically speaking minerals are worth .66 isk. (not your value on it, what the game actually works it out to be.)
4.) and yes my experience does come into play sir, this is my in game career, what is yours? trolling? or being ignorant?

Ok now for the 2nd part......
That has nothing to do with mechanically speaking on the core actual value of a mineral,
That has to do with how to produce and profit as an Industrial focused game play.
My corp, after bills, payroll, production costs, transportation fees, research, invention, handing out free stuff.....still nets 60 Billion ISK........Profits, not Gross, but pure profits and we no longer play as much or as hard as we used to doing indy, mining, etc etc as we did in our early days. In fact i think maybe over half our time is doing things other than Indy these days.

So if you want to talk about marketing and indy and not game mechanics.....then sure i can do that.
The simple fact of the matter is though..Ships are over priced as they cost us(as a corp) less than 10% of the buy orders per ship to produce. Use the market system and that cost is even lower compared to making sell orders.
Cade Windstalker
#66 - 2017-02-18 02:33:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Max Deveron wrote:
1.) There is a difference between minerals and ore yes? 1 item in the database is different than the other?
2.) Mechanically speaking = true worth or game mechanics, not the value YOU or anybody else places on it, mechanically speaking every single mineral is less than 1 isk.
3.) my original statement was mechanically speaking minerals are worth .66 isk. (not your value on it, what the game actually works it out to be.)
4.) and yes my experience does come into play sir, this is my in game career, what is yours? trolling? or being ignorant?


1. Like I said, pedantry. The literal only purpose of Ore is to refine it into Minerals. "Mining Minerals" is a common piece of shorthand in Eve.

2. No, because your math here is wrong. You are assuming, incorrectly, that the Job Install Cost is in any way intended to represent the value of the inputs. It does not, it's a derived value to remove ISK from the economy. In game terms it's the cost of using the equipment and paying the NPCs on the station for operating it. This value is derived from the player-determine value of the items.

3. Your original statement was completely and utterly wrong. The game works out the value of minerals based off of sales on the market. The Job Install Cost is a fraction of this value. It is not, at all, what the game code determines the value of minerals to be. If people sold Trit on the market for .66 ISK then the Job Install cost per unit of Trit would then become a fraction of that value.

4. Your game experience doesn't change that your math is wrong...

Max Deveron wrote:
Ok now for the 2nd part......
That has nothing to do with mechanically speaking on the core actual value of a mineral,
That has to do with how to produce and profit as an Industrial focused game play.
My corp, after bills, payroll, production costs, transportation fees, research, invention, handing out free stuff.....still nets 60 Billion ISK........Profits, not Gross, but pure profits and we no longer play as much or as hard as we used to doing indy, mining, etc etc as we did in our early days. In fact i think maybe over half our time is doing things other than Indy these days.

So if you want to talk about marketing and indy and not game mechanics.....then sure i can do that.
The simple fact of the matter is though..Ships are over priced as they cost us(as a corp) less than 10% of the buy orders per ship to produce. Use the market system and that cost is even lower compared to making sell orders.


There is no core value to minerals, or ore, or anything else that doesn't have an NPC buy order associated with it. This is not World of Warcraft where items have a static value that they can be sold to NPCs for.

As for that profit factor, yay? Congrats? Doesn't change the fact that your entire conception of value in Eve is flawed and based on a wrong assumption.

The economic concept that everyone here is referencing, and that you don't seem to grasp, is the "opportunity cost". When you build your minerals into a ship instead of selling them you give up on the value you could have made selling the minerals directly. That is the raw value of those minerals.

Similarly minerals you have mined are not "free" in the calculation of profit margins on a build because the profit margin on a ship build is relative to the value of the minerals. If the profit margin is zero or negative then you're better off selling the minerals rather than building the ship.
mkint
#67 - 2017-02-18 03:36:35 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Lol you people.

I put a rain barrel outside. It collects water. I filter it and put into bottles with a fancy label. Sell for big $.

How much did that water cost me?
How much is water actually worth?
What are my true costs for calculation of profit?


The Excavator drones will sell for whatever people will pay for them.
The materials to build them will cost whatever people will pay for them.
I sold all my Drone AI's and made a ton of Isk.
I collected them at no cost, whatsoever.
Pure unadulterated profit.
I love EveBlink

This folks. This right here.

This is why people get bad grades in economics classes. This is also why things sell on the market for lower than their mineral value.

If you lived in Oregon your rainwater scheme would be illegal, so at the very least you have to factor risk into your cost. Otherwise, for your drone AIs there's opportunity cost and value of time. I guarantee you don't put out a can and have it magically fill up with materials. This isn't moon mins after all.

Not really in the mood to cram a whole economics 101 course into a forums post, but basically don't be like this guy. D- See me after class.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2017-02-18 10:27:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Creire-Geng
Max Deveron wrote:
Skill up your reading compression, Payroll budget...that means I give out paychecks to those that mine....and you know what my principle of theory still works compared to most anybody else that attempts to argue with me.


Aww, that's adorable. But I'm afraid you're the one who can't read.

Like I said, doesn't matter how poorly you're paying people on your payroll. Hell, it doesn't even matter if you stumble into a free cache of 1 quadrillion ISK worth of minerals, and you have manufacturing slots with literally 0 ISK costs. If the manufacturing process is not going to convert the minerals into a higher-value item, you're STILL better off selling the minerals directly. Look up "opportunity cost" if you're still having difficulty with the concept.
Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2017-02-18 11:08:55 UTC
Kaldi Tsukaya wrote:
Lol you people.

I put a rain barrel outside. It collects water. I filter it and put into bottles with a fancy label. Sell for big $.

How much did that water cost me?
How much is water actually worth?
What are my true costs for calculation of profit?


How much did that water cost you? -> As much time as you have to spend filtering, filling, and labeling the bottles. How do you value your time? Depends on what other job prospects you have available. If you have nothing else you could do, then your time isn't worth much, but if you have a job offer for $20/hour, you'll want to make sure your water scheme is making at least that if you want to do it instead of taking the job offer.

How much is water actually worth? -> I bet you thought the answer to this one was zero, didn't you? I mean, it literally fell out of the sky! But no. The water is worth as much as buyers are willing to pay for it. If no one's buying rainwater, then sure, it's zero, but otherwise, it has a market value. Supply and demand 101.

What are your true costs for calculation of profit? -> At the very least you need to procure the bottles and labels, even if you're not marketing your rainwater. So you need to figure out how much those would cost you, then add the hourly wage from question 1, and the market value of question 2. The result is the minimum bottle price to break even. You can go below this value and still look like you're making profit, but the reality is you'll be getting paid poorly for the hours you're putting in, or you'll be making less money than just selling the rainwater directly without filtering it.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#70 - 2017-02-18 11:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Lord Trump
Max Deveron wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?



In short, because ships are overpriced, thats why :)

No, because you miss the logical hole in your argument large enough to fly a Titan through.
Furthermore, if the prices of ships increased beyond what the market was willing to pay, the price would go down, either from older industrialists looking to make money faster or new industrialists entering the market to take advantage of higher prices. Your stuff is worth what you can sell it for. This stuff is macroeconomics 101.
Also, minerals aren't free. They come from ore, which takes time to mine, and time has value due to opportunity cost. If I'm mining ore, I can't be running incursions on the same account. There's nothing wrong with mining, but you have to understand that time has value, even if you're AFK.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Salvos Rhoska
#71 - 2017-02-18 11:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, minerals aren't free. They come from ore, which takes time to mine, and time has value due to opportunity cost. If I'm mining ore, I can't be running incursions on the same account. There's nothing wrong with mining, but you have to understand that time has value, even if you're AFK.


This isnt accurate.
Time in EVE, only concretely has value in terms of SP (and that weighed against value of subbed time).

Opportunity costs are only valid insofar as a comparison of if you could be making more profit doing something else instead. They dont change the value of time, they merely change what value you can accrue during that time.

What you do with time, is arbitrary, thus the value of how you use time, is arbitrary.

Free means it costs no isk to acquire.

Time is not a commodity you can increase or decrease, buy, sell or create.
It passes according to the natural laws of physics of this universe, at a constant rate, subjectively.

Time, itself, is free for everyone, as a natural phenomenon.
Time has no cost.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#72 - 2017-02-18 14:39:16 UTC
Do Little wrote:
Drop some Elite Drone AI



sooo.... these are worth something now? Shocked

i remember they weren't even listed on market Lol
Salvos Rhoska
#73 - 2017-02-18 15:31:49 UTC
000Hunter000 wrote:
Do Little wrote:
Drop some Elite Drone AI



sooo.... these are worth something now? Shocked

i remember they weren't even listed on market Lol


Check out the price now, bro.

Will blow your mind.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Cade Windstalker
#74 - 2017-02-18 18:18:11 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, minerals aren't free. They come from ore, which takes time to mine, and time has value due to opportunity cost. If I'm mining ore, I can't be running incursions on the same account. There's nothing wrong with mining, but you have to understand that time has value, even if you're AFK.


This isnt accurate.
Time in EVE, only concretely has value in terms of SP (and that weighed against value of subbed time).

Opportunity costs are only valid insofar as a comparison of if you could be making more profit doing something else instead. They dont change the value of time, they merely change what value you can accrue during that time.

What you do with time, is arbitrary, thus the value of how you use time, is arbitrary.

Free means it costs no isk to acquire.

Time is not a commodity you can increase or decrease, buy, sell or create.
It passes according to the natural laws of physics of this universe, at a constant rate, subjectively.

Time, itself, is free for everyone, as a natural phenomenon.
Time has no cost.


Except, again, in terms of opportunity cost. When I spend my time doing one thing I am essentially spending the other things I could be doing with that time since I lose the opportunity to do them with that time.

Also the whole original point behind "minerals aren't free" is that you shouldn't factor them in as having no cost when determining profit margin on manufacturing, which is true regardless of the time spent to acquire them. The profit margin on manufacturing is still the value of the finished good compared to the value of the inputs.
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#75 - 2017-02-18 19:53:28 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Check out the price now, bro.

Will blow your mind.


I just lolled really hard! half a billion iskies in a 'junk' can! Lol
Kishijoten Lansing
Psyclon Nine Services Inc
#76 - 2017-02-18 20:16:45 UTC
Bypassing all the forum PVP I'll let you know why anything rorq cost a lot...

1.) The pure amount of isk you can make using a rorq
2.) it is a capital... Anything capital will cost a lot
3.) Foolish people will dish out billions of ist on a ship that will get dead sooner than you want it to, because it has to be on grid and stuck in a 5 min cycle with no way to warp or anything once that newt has been seen in intel on its way to come hot drop your rorq
4.) Like anything that is new and kinda neat in eve it will cost a lot more than it should for the first year and change

To sum it up... IF and only IF you have some quiet space you can make that isk back in no time... That thing can melt a belt in record time, so they are almost worth worth it
Kishijoten Lansing
Psyclon Nine Services Inc
#77 - 2017-02-18 20:19:36 UTC
and on that note CCP kinda needs to look into the amount of rorqs that are getting blown up.... Several friends of mine have quit eve because they don't want to undock their rorq because they know it will just get hot dropped or something like that
Cade Windstalker
#78 - 2017-02-18 21:14:47 UTC
Kishijoten Lansing wrote:
and on that note CCP kinda needs to look into the amount of rorqs that are getting blown up.... Several friends of mine have quit eve because they don't want to undock their rorq because they know it will just get hot dropped or something like that


If someone is quitting Eve over not being able to undock a single ship, for fear of losing it, then they were already on their way out of the game, that's just the excuse they're giving for leaving.
000Hunter000
Missiles 'R' Us
#79 - 2017-02-18 21:27:08 UTC
Kishijoten Lansing wrote:
Several friends of mine have quit eve because they don't want to undock their rorq because they know it will just get hot dropped or something like that



Can i havz their rorqs? Lol
Salvos Rhoska
#80 - 2017-02-19 09:24:17 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Also, minerals aren't free. They come from ore, which takes time to mine, and time has value due to opportunity cost. If I'm mining ore, I can't be running incursions on the same account. There's nothing wrong with mining, but you have to understand that time has value, even if you're AFK.


This isnt accurate.
Time in EVE, only concretely has value in terms of SP (and that weighed against value of subbed time).

Opportunity costs are only valid insofar as a comparison of if you could be making more profit doing something else instead. They dont change the value of time, they merely change what value you can accrue during that time.

What you do with time, is arbitrary, thus the value of how you use time, is arbitrary.

Free means it costs no isk to acquire.

Time is not a commodity you can increase or decrease, buy, sell or create.
It passes according to the natural laws of physics of this universe, at a constant rate, subjectively.

Time, itself, is free for everyone, as a natural phenomenon.
Time has no cost.


Except, again, in terms of opportunity cost. When I spend my time doing one thing I am essentially spending the other things I could be doing with that time since I lose the opportunity to do them with that time.

Also the whole original point behind "minerals aren't free" is that you shouldn't factor them in as having no cost when determining profit margin on manufacturing, which is true regardless of the time spent to acquire them. The profit margin on manufacturing is still the value of the finished good compared to the value of the inputs.


Time is free. What you do with it, is up to you, but its not the time itself that earns/costs you anything, its what you do in that time, that earns/costs you.

Opportunity value/ cost is arbitrary.

"Minerals arent free" is a meme. If you acquire the minerals without spending isk, they are free.
If you spend isk on the minerals, that decreases your profit margins. If you dont spend isk on them, your margins are higher.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent