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Why In the World is The Excavator Mining Drones Still Obsuredly Priced
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Cade Windstalker
#41 - 2017-02-17 18:04:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.


No, not everything. When someone has an actually well thought out or at least interesting idea there can be a lot of interesting back and forth.

This just wasn't one of those times.

If you'd like you could post this over on Reddit and get a different 10 people pointing out the issues with your complaint Big smile
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#42 - 2017-02-17 18:24:28 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.
Oh boy.

Jenn aSide is, for the most part, a PvE player.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now reread your post and realise what a fool you've made yourself out to be.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Salvos Rhoska
#43 - 2017-02-17 18:27:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Options are:
-Introduce meta/T1/T2 variants with lesser efficiency/material costs (as is traditional in EVE)
-Change stats (if overperforming)
-Change materials required to build
-Increase drop rates of materials to build
-Reduce cost of the BPCs from LP store

How much is the current general markup vs cost of mats + LP equivalence from the LP store?

PS: As others have said, taking away items from players is not an option.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#44 - 2017-02-17 18:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.
Oh boy.

Jenn aSide is, for the most part, a PvE player.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now reread your post and realise what a fool you've made yourself out to be.


The funny thing is that I was doing my Thrid Centus Assembly (DED 10/10) of the day while he was writing that Twisted

It's common for people with dumb complaints to do that. I find it funny how I get transformed into a PVP player every time I disagree with someone's stupid post...

I guess people can't read:

Jenn aSide
shinigami miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#45 - 2017-02-17 18:54:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Options are:
-Introduce meta/T1/T2 variants with lesser efficiency/material costs (as is traditional in EVE)
-Change stats (if overperforming)
-Change materials required to build
-Increase drop rates of materials to build
-Reduce cost of the BPCs from LP store

How much is the current general markup vs cost of mats + LP equivalence from the LP store?

PS: As others have said, taking away items from players is not an option.

It seems like the biggest chunk of the cost is the LP only BPC. Maybe that would be the issue. Lets be honest the mission system in this game isn't the greatest and this item is dependent on a bad system.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#46 - 2017-02-17 18:59:57 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.
Oh boy.

Jenn aSide is, for the most part, a PvE player.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Now reread your post and realise what a fool you've made yourself out to be.


The funny thing is that I was doing my Thrid Centus Assembly (DED 10/10) of the day while he was writing that Twisted

It's common for people with dumb complaints to do that. I find it funny how I get transformed into a PVP player every time I disagree with someone's stupid post...

I guess people can't read:

Jenn aSide
shinigami miners
Test Alliance Please Ignore


It's not like all corp names are relevant tho...
Cade Windstalker
#47 - 2017-02-17 19:13:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It seems like the biggest chunk of the cost is the LP only BPC. Maybe that would be the issue. Lets be honest the mission system in this game isn't the greatest and this item is dependent on a bad system.


This is not accurate. The single largest share of the cost of the drones is the almost 1.4 billion in materials it takes to make *one*. Of that the two biggest contributors are the Drone Coronary Units and Elite Drone AIs required for each run.

At present the BPC is actually the easiest thing to acquire, in large part due to Incursions and the ability to convert CONCORD LP to ORE LP, albeit at a bad ratio.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#48 - 2017-02-17 19:38:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
Amanda Creire-Geng wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:

WTH are you on about?
If you are talking about buying minerals from market to make profits....well of course that is insane.
All T1 ships are profitable.....if you mine it yourself or have a workforce to do the mining, production costs are nill compared to the selling prices of ships.

And before you try to argue that...go do some serious Indy (manufacturing) while having a payroll to budget for corp employees.


Ah, the good old "I mined the minerals myself so they're free" fallacy.

Pro-tip: Any item that can be sold on the market has a value in ISK. When you use said item in a manufacturing job (regardless of where you got it from), you're destroying that value, in exchange for a manufactured product. If the product's value is about the same as the materials required to build it (which is the case for most T1 ships), then you're better off just selling the minerals to get the same profit, instead of wasting time with a production chain.



Skill up your reading compression, Payroll budget...that means I give out paychecks to those that mine....and you know what my principle of theory still works compared to most anybody else that attempts to argue with me.

also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)
And btw you can use that for a formula to figure what your time worth mining is.
But Im done teaching here, you figure out how i can make 60 Billion+ ISK in profits per month with mining and production of t1 stuff without trying. (in highsec only)
Trust me, when you finally do then you will get it. And will also truly understand the meaning of oportunity costs not the failed terminology that almost all of EvE and every non-indy player spews around here.
Foxstar Damaskeenus
why did i join this corp
Not Purple Shoot It.
#49 - 2017-02-17 19:41:14 UTC
A new Mercedes S class will cost you a minimum $100,000.00 in the USA. There is a used Daewoo in the paper with 45K miles on it for $600. Read John Maynard Keynes.

"[this thread] is a cesspit of trolling and flaming" ISD Buldath
Salvos Rhoska
#50 - 2017-02-17 19:44:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
It seems like the biggest chunk of the cost is the LP only BPC. Maybe that would be the issue. Lets be honest the mission system in this game isn't the greatest and this item is dependent on a bad system.


This is not accurate. The single largest share of the cost of the drones is the almost 1.4 billion in materials it takes to make *one*. Of that the two biggest contributors are the Drone Coronary Units and Elite Drone AIs required for each run.

At present the BPC is actually the easiest thing to acquire, in large part due to Incursions and the ability to convert CONCORD LP to ORE LP, albeit at a bad ratio.


This is very interesting.

I was at first going to suggest that these drop in Drone NS, because I falsely assumed they drop from Sleepers.
But when I looked into it, it turns out that they do infact drop in Drone NS (if I understood correctly).

I had hoped I could suggest the above, to improve the value of Drone NS, but its already there!

Alrighty then. If Drone NS is cornering the market, good for them.
Drone NS was shafted for a long time.

I redact my previous options, in favor only of:
1) Their being a t1/t2 alternative with less efficiency and less material/LP costs.
Thus introducing more dynamic to the market, where people can buy/sell lesser ones, or invest in the better ones.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Sarah Flynt
Red Cross Mercenaries
Silent Infinity
#51 - 2017-02-17 20:08:08 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Skill up your reading compression, Payroll budget...that means I give out paychecks to those that mine....and you know what my principle of theory still works compared to most anybody else that attempts to argue with me.

also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)
And btw you can use that for a formula to figure what your time worth mining is.
But Im done teaching here, you figure out how i can make 60 Billion+ ISK in profits per month with mining and production of t1 stuff without trying. (in highsec only)
Trust me, when you finally do then you will get it. And will also truly understand the meaning of oportunity costs not the failed terminology that almost all of EvE and every non-indy player spews around here.

So what you're actually doing is ripping off your miners and calling it 'industry'. Nice scam you're running there, nothing new though. I suppose your "teachings" would be much more successful in the C&P section of the forum.

Sick of High-Sec gankers? Join the public channel Anti-ganking and the dedicated intel channel Gank-Intel !
Cade Windstalker
#52 - 2017-02-17 20:23:04 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)


Um, the installation cost of a job is based on the value of the input components, your math here is fundamentally flawed in assuming that what you're getting by dividing installation cost by inputs is the value of the materials. In reality it's just the average of value times the installation cost coefficient, per page three of this doc on the subject.

That base price hasn't been based off of any sort of static value in over half a decade now, it's based off of some kind of weighted average of market movement that's available via the CREST API for any given material.

In short, no raw minerals are not worth .66ISK each.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#53 - 2017-02-17 22:41:24 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)


Um, the installation cost of a job is based on the value of the input components, your math here is fundamentally flawed in assuming that what you're getting by dividing installation cost by inputs is the value of the materials. In reality it's just the average of value times the installation cost coefficient, per page three of this doc on the subject.

That base price hasn't been based off of any sort of static value in over half a decade now, it's based off of some kind of weighted average of market movement that's available via the CREST API for any given material.

In short, no raw minerals are not worth .66ISK each.



Hmmm, ok

10/20 Dominix print = 13,896,192 minerals
Production Cost = 6,298,844
6,298,844/13,896,192 = .45 ISK per mineral

10/20 catalyst print = 66,168 minerals
Production Cost = 33,227
33,227/66,168 = .50 ISK per mineral

So mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK each according to game mechnics.
And minerals really are Free is you have the appropriate skills, standings etc in place for a true indy person. It is the Time to collect ore, rat loot etc by way of PvP or PvE that must be accounted for.
But start with 1 build slot, 4-6 hours collection time and with less than 30 million ISK on a 0/0 print for a tier 1 T1 destroyer and 6 days wait time you can profit 90-100 million ISK.
Whilst waiting for production you collect more stuff to turn into Free Minerals, by the time you can support 11 build slots your ability to include friends into your business plan (because they like the cash and gear for pvp) you can start chucking out 100 Battleships every 24 hours....10 Billion Isk every day.

All without paying a single .01 ISK to another player on the market for anything.
Indy is my thing, have been doing it for 8 years now.

In short; TLDR: you are wrong sir.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#54 - 2017-02-17 22:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Deveron
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
Skill up your reading compression, Payroll budget...that means I give out paychecks to those that mine....and you know what my principle of theory still works compared to most anybody else that attempts to argue with me.

also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)
And btw you can use that for a formula to figure what your time worth mining is.
But Im done teaching here, you figure out how i can make 60 Billion+ ISK in profits per month with mining and production of t1 stuff without trying. (in highsec only)
Trust me, when you finally do then you will get it. And will also truly understand the meaning of oportunity costs not the failed terminology that almost all of EvE and every non-indy player spews around here.

So what you're actually doing is ripping off your miners and calling it 'industry'. Nice scam you're running there, nothing new though. I suppose your "teachings" would be much more successful in the C&P section of the forum.



I do not RIP off any miners..........

In fact if a miner wants to work for me, I always pay HIGHER then Jita buy orders.....because it is still profitable, way profitable...

In fact despite the rates I pay others to go mining, I still get a 76% profit margin rate on everything I build for the markets.......

Probably because minerals are worth less than 1 ISK each and ships are worth so much more.

EDIT: the 76% profit margin is actually after taking into account of waiting on items to be built...otherwise 100 ships is more like 1800 % profit in the case of T1 destroyers :)
Salvos Rhoska
#55 - 2017-02-17 23:08:57 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
EDIT: the 76% profit margin is actually after taking into account of waiting on items to be built...otherwise 100 ships is more like 1800 % profit in the case of T1 destroyers :)


Well done, bro.

Its certainly a fact that the majority of EVE players are not involved with the real serious production of necessary ships, let alone having a supply network to fulfill it.

This both reassures me, but also terrifies me.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Cade Windstalker
#56 - 2017-02-17 23:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cade Windstalker
Max Deveron wrote:
Hmmm, ok

10/20 Dominix print = 13,896,192 minerals
Production Cost = 6,298,844
6,298,844/13,896,192 = .45 ISK per mineral

10/20 catalyst print = 66,168 minerals
Production Cost = 33,227
33,227/66,168 = .50 ISK per mineral

So mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK each according to game mechnics.


Nope, you have once again missed the point.

This is the API dump for Tritanium:

    {
      "adjustedPrice": 3.81,
      "averagePrice": 4.48,
      "type": {
        "id_str": "34",
        "href": "https://crest-tq.eveonline.com/inventory/types/34/",
        "id": 34,
        "name": "Tritanium"
      }
    }


Note the "adjustedPrice" entry. That is what is used when calculating the job cost on an item. The job cost is a function of the value of the materials, it is *not* a value for those materials itself.

That value is calculated from the base price of the job, which is that "adjustedPrice" for each material times the base quantity on the blueprint, independent of any ME or TE adjustements, and then multiplied by the "systemCostIndex".

You can see this in action via FuzzySteve's Blueprint calculator by changing the system around. For example Jita has a fairly high systemCostIndex where as some back-end system in Low or Null has a low one.

So yeah, job install cost is not the value of those minerals. The game's definition of the value of those minerals is determined by what players are buying and selling them for.

So no, minerals aren't free, they cost time to mine and there is an opportunity cost in putting them into something vs selling them. The value of anything made in Eve should always be compared to the value you could get for just selling the components directly on the market.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#57 - 2017-02-17 23:41:50 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Max Deveron wrote:
also I said Mechanically speaking, take a t1 ship, add up the total numbers of the minerals (ie catalyst for example is tad over 66k individual units) and divide by the cost of the npc production fees. Your minerals are worth .66 ISK each no matter what they are. (true worth, not what the market says)


Um, the installation cost of a job is based on the value of the input components, your math here is fundamentally flawed in assuming that what you're getting by dividing installation cost by inputs is the value of the materials. In reality it's just the average of value times the installation cost coefficient, per page three of this doc on the subject.

That base price hasn't been based off of any sort of static value in over half a decade now, it's based off of some kind of weighted average of market movement that's available via the CREST API for any given material.

In short, no raw minerals are not worth .66ISK each.



Hmmm, ok

10/20 Dominix print = 13,896,192 minerals
Production Cost = 6,298,844
6,298,844/13,896,192 = .45 ISK per mineral

10/20 catalyst print = 66,168 minerals
Production Cost = 33,227
33,227/66,168 = .50 ISK per mineral

So mechanically speaking minerals are worth less than 1 ISK each according to game mechnics.
And minerals really are Free is you have the appropriate skills, standings etc in place for a true indy person. It is the Time to collect ore, rat loot etc by way of PvP or PvE that must be accounted for.
But start with 1 build slot, 4-6 hours collection time and with less than 30 million ISK on a 0/0 print for a tier 1 T1 destroyer and 6 days wait time you can profit 90-100 million ISK.
Whilst waiting for production you collect more stuff to turn into Free Minerals, by the time you can support 11 build slots your ability to include friends into your business plan (because they like the cash and gear for pvp) you can start chucking out 100 Battleships every 24 hours....10 Billion Isk every day.

All without paying a single .01 ISK to another player on the market for anything.
Indy is my thing, have been doing it for 8 years now.

In short; TLDR: you are wrong sir.

Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Cade Windstalker
#58 - 2017-02-17 23:44:04 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?


I think he's using his faulty math to justify paying a fraction of an ISK per unit of minerals...

This makes him either terrible at math and logic, or someone who is ripping off miners who don't know any better.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#59 - 2017-02-18 00:41:32 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?



In short, because ships are overpriced, thats why :)
Cade Windstalker
#60 - 2017-02-18 00:50:18 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:

Erm... what?
The job installation cost is how much it costs to hire workers in that system. Your math basically says "a ferarri costs $10000 in labor to assemble, and it has 1000 parts of varying sizes. This means that all parts cost $10, and since I can sell it for $100000 I make 1000% profit!" Besides, if you buy ore from your miners at above Jita buy, how do you realize these massive profits since you're overpaying for minerals?



In short, because ships are overpriced, thats why :)


They aren't, your math is just bad... the *actual* margin on making a ship is the difference between the sale price of the ship and the sale price of the materials you used to make the ship.

If you're basing the mineral rates you pay your corp members off of this ridiculous math you are, in fact, scamming them.