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Why In the World is The Excavator Mining Drones Still Obsuredly Priced
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mkint
#21 - 2017-02-17 01:28:31 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
How does someone who wants to be a producer, especially at such a high level of production, completely fail to understand production? I'm getting the feeling this is a SI toon PLEXing a rorq. And a FOTM chaser on top of it. There's no other way any of this makes sense.

What I like most is that there are no arguments for why the prices of these drones need to be cheaper except "I wannit, waaah!" No analysis of the history of the mineral basket or producer price indices. No logical appeal to empathy or emotion. Not even a basic understanding of production costs and markups. No understanding of how supply and demand work, no suggestions for a real, effective price adjustment. Just a tantrum.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2017-02-17 04:48:56 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
How exactly is confiscating blueprints going to help? All that's going to do is leave a massive black mark on CCP's record, and increase the price further as blueprints leave circulation.

If one group or entity has them all redistributing them wont hurt.

One group or entity does not have them all. They're available in the ORE LP store to anyone who has ORE LP, or has CONCORD LP to trade in, or has the ISK to buy a BPC from someone who does. There's no Excavator cartel, and stealing blueprints from the rich to give them to the poor is anathema to the free market of EvE.

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Does the needs of a handful outweigh the needs of a whole game? My guess is you are one of the few who has a BPO.

I fail to see the needs of a whole game. I can't fly a Rorqual, excavators are useless to me and the vast majority of players who also cannot or will not fly a Rorqual. If anything, the Rorqual miners are the handful being outweighed by all the ORE mission runners and incursion runners.
Also, Excavator drones don't have a BPO. They only have BPCs, which can be purchased from the ORE LP store and may or may not drop from NPC miner haulers.

The fact that you don't understand the market for these blueprints, and believe that they have a BPO, suggests that you are talking out of your buttocks and are just angry you can't afford a Rorqual.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#23 - 2017-02-17 05:28:55 UTC
Atm the Drone coronary units are more of a supply bottleneck than the Elite Drone AIs. Then you have to factor in the ORE LP store bpc to get a cost for these items and yes that makes them expensive still.

CCP has already upped the drop rates for the Elite Drone AIs yet not the Drone materials. Someone saw an advantage and likely leveraged that to the hilt like they did the Elite Drone AIs before them.


The only way CCP can make them cheaper is to up the drop rates of the AIs and the drone materials and really cause chaos in all the other items that require them or to start having drone sites drop BPCs for the drones as to make that portion cheaper. If it were up to me Id shy away from giving the drone lands too much and create an even distribution everywhere in null/low sec drone sites with the odd super low drop in high.

But other than this the only suggestion is Tech 1 or Tech 2 excavators. So a +1 for that. Yet these drones need the largest prenerf and the excavators would have to actually then rise in price like the old Harvester Mining drones.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#24 - 2017-02-17 07:27:29 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Aiwha wrote:
I actually do think CCP needs to add T1 and T2 versions that mine a good deal less but cost less too.
Treating the Excavators somewhat like Geckos in their classification?

I wouldn't have a problem with that and it's an idea worth discussing, it's a far more reasonable suggestion than what the OP suggests.

I could also get on board with this. Maybe the lack of meta like many other things is the issue.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#25 - 2017-02-17 07:30:49 UTC
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Dark Lord Trump wrote:
How exactly is confiscating blueprints going to help? All that's going to do is leave a massive black mark on CCP's record, and increase the price further as blueprints leave circulation.

If one group or entity has them all redistributing them wont hurt.

One group or entity does not have them all. They're available in the ORE LP store to anyone who has ORE LP, or has CONCORD LP to trade in, or has the ISK to buy a BPC from someone who does. There's no Excavator cartel, and stealing blueprints from the rich to give them to the poor is anathema to the free market of EvE.

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Does the needs of a handful outweigh the needs of a whole game? My guess is you are one of the few who has a BPO.

I fail to see the needs of a whole game. I can't fly a Rorqual, excavators are useless to me and the vast majority of players who also cannot or will not fly a Rorqual. If anything, the Rorqual miners are the handful being outweighed by all the ORE mission runners and incursion runners.
Also, Excavator drones don't have a BPO. They only have BPCs, which can be purchased from the ORE LP store and may or may not drop from NPC miner haulers.

The fact that you don't understand the market for these blueprints, and believe that they have a BPO, suggests that you are talking out of your buttocks and are just angry you can't afford a Rorqual.

Actually I can afford a rorq and also, if I'm not mistaken orcas and porcupines(?) can also use them.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#26 - 2017-02-17 07:37:45 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Actually I can afford a rorq and also, if I'm not mistaken orcas and porcupines(?) can also use them.

Isn't the volume too big to fit in either one?
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#27 - 2017-02-17 07:41:01 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Actually I can afford a rorq and also, if I'm not mistaken orcas and porcupines(?) can also use them.

Isn't the volume too big to fit in either one?

Yup nevermind. They have the bandwidth but not the volume. Sigh
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#28 - 2017-02-17 08:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternus8lux8lucis
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Actually I can afford a rorq and also, if I'm not mistaken orcas and porcupines(?) can also use them.

Isn't the volume too big to fit in either one?

Yup nevermind. They have the bandwidth but not the volume. Sigh

If CCP would make T1 and T2 varients I am sure the bandwidth/volume issue could be addressed here too tbh. Making T1 be an all class drone, the T2 orca and rorqual only and the excavator the rorqual only would be an interesting way to do this transition.

Edit for clarity

25m3 drone volume 25Mbit bandwidth for T1
25m3 drone volume 75Mbit bandwidth for T2

Porpoise gets no bonus so cannot use T2 but can use T1
Orca gets a 66% T2 bandwidth bonus to bring T2 actual bandwidth to 25Mbit allowing it to use 2 at once
Rorqual gets a 66% bandwidth bonus to use 5.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#29 - 2017-02-17 09:14:14 UTC
how long would it take you to make that isk investment back from the drones? about 2 days of mining in a rorq?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#30 - 2017-02-17 11:37:54 UTC
The only reason why they are "so expensive" is...
Only rorq can use it - so if u gonna mine with a T2 drone, what is a reason to get a RORQ if u could do it pretty good in an WAY CHEAPIER Orca?

So people sell that drones as other RORQ ppl need them, to the worse, there aren't so many RORQ pilots so the market is low with that item;

Item would cost a LOT if there is not many of them in the market so this mean a none competition at all...
Price even rise when it is hard to get needed components..
Black Locust
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2017-02-17 12:06:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Locust
I am training an alt into a rorq, who is about 14 days from being where he needs to be. And whilst I am somewhat annoyed that the excavators are so expensive, I think it makes sense why they are. I am in the annoying position at the moment of trying to decide whether to buy them now, lest they go up further, or hold out for a couple more weeks to see if the drone components start filtering through to the market in higher numbers.


When you have bought these drones, your rorqual becomes 2 things. A steady source of decent income, and a gank magnet. This is contributing to the cost by pushing the demand. More people are getting into Rorquals for the ISK/H, but at the same time more and more are being exploded. So we are currently in a bubble of massive acceleration in demand for these drones which will only subside once an equilibrium is reached between new rorq pilots, and people losing them.

Are they expensive? Yes.
Are they worth the money? Absolutely
Will they get more expensive? Probably
Solution? Go and rat in the drone regions :)
Amanda Creire-Geng
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2017-02-17 12:52:41 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:

WTH are you on about?
If you are talking about buying minerals from market to make profits....well of course that is insane.
All T1 ships are profitable.....if you mine it yourself or have a workforce to do the mining, production costs are nill compared to the selling prices of ships.

And before you try to argue that...go do some serious Indy (manufacturing) while having a payroll to budget for corp employees.


Ah, the good old "I mined the minerals myself so they're free" fallacy.

Pro-tip: Any item that can be sold on the market has a value in ISK. When you use said item in a manufacturing job (regardless of where you got it from), you're destroying that value, in exchange for a manufactured product. If the product's value is about the same as the materials required to build it (which is the case for most T1 ships), then you're better off just selling the minerals to get the same profit, instead of wasting time with a production chain.
Vokan Tain
Dragon.
Pandemic Horde
#33 - 2017-02-17 12:54:09 UTC
The problem with the cost has little to do with the demand and more to do with the way the parts needed to make one are broken down.

The majority of the build is Drone parts with some T2 components to supplement this.

The downside here is that the amount of drone parts available on the market were relatively small and so open to easy manipulation.

What would have been better is if 90% of the components were T2 and then supplemented with 10% drone parts, the t2 market is long established and less prone to massive manipulation that we are currently seeing.

Last weekend there were enough coronary parts in jita to make about 100 drones so the supply is nowhere near the current demand so moving the prices is easy.

If the coronary units on the market were 200 or 300 times whats needed then there would be more competition to sell those parts and the price would come down.

There is no way CCP is going to increase drop rates to that degree so the prices are going to stay high.

A fitted RORQ just moved up to Super Cap levels. I dont see that changing any time soon.
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#34 - 2017-02-17 14:40:34 UTC
Stop using them maybe prices will drop a bit. Blink

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#35 - 2017-02-17 15:22:56 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Sarah Flynt wrote:
Just wait until CCP nerfs them into the ground as should be done anyway, considering how the mineral market keeps crashing because of them. I'm sure their price will adjust downwards instantly.


Example Before mining changes/additions:
1 Tristan cost about 300k in minerals to make in a station with a maxed out BP. In other words profit was IMPOSSIBLE or slim if you are lucky with the material prices.

That cost is down to 250k which means manufacturing is once again profitable for non cruiser t2 and t3s and above or really anything that doesn't require moon goo.



WTH are you on about?
If you are talking about buying minerals from market to make profits....well of course that is insane.
All T1 ships are profitable.....if you mine it yourself or have a workforce to do the mining, production costs are nill compared to the selling prices of ships.

And before you try to argue that...go do some serious Indy (manufacturing) while having a payroll to budget for corp employees.


Actually no.

If it's not profitable to use market minerals to make a ship... you shouldn't make the ship even with stuff you mined. You should directly sell the minerals (or more likely the ore). You're essentially losing profit by turning your ore into a ship instead of just selling the ore.
Cade Windstalker
#36 - 2017-02-17 15:47:15 UTC
OP, allow me to clarify a few things for you!

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
If one group or entity has them all redistributing them wont hurt.


This is not the case, BPs for these drones are fairly evenly distributed and it would be basically impossible at present for anyone to corner the market on them.

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Does the needs of a handful outweigh the needs of a whole game? My guess is you are one of the few who has a BPO.


This is also impossible, there are exactly *ZERO* Excavator Mining Drone BPOs in existence. The only way to get blueprints for these is to buy Blueprint Copies from ORE affiliate LP stores, listed below for your convenience:


  • Frostline Laboratories
  • ORE Technologies
  • Outer Ring Development
  • Outer Ring Excavations
  • Outer Ring Prospecting


Also it's not really for your to be dictating what is or isn't good for "the many".

Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
CCP needs to stop torching everything that isn't PVP. The mineral prices have been too high for years. Its not crashing its returning to normal.

Example Before mining changes/additions:
1 Tristan cost about 300k in minerals to make in a station with a maxed out BP. In other words profit was IMPOSSIBLE or slim if you are lucky with the material prices.

That cost is down to 250k which means manufacturing is once again profitable for non cruiser t2 and t3s and above or really anything that doesn't require moon goo.


This is also not accurate. Mineral prices are driven entirely by supply and demand, so calling this a "return to normal" is just grossly inaccurate.

Also your observation about T1 hulls is inaccurate as well. T1 ships have, historically, always tracked very closely with the cost of the minerals to make them. This is partly because they're so easy to make, so they quickly floor out at the minimum break even sell price, and partly because some people just enjoy making things and don't really care about having a profit margin on their T1 ship production, either because they're not great at picking things to make or because they don't care.

If you look at the historical price of Tritanium over the last 2 years and then look at the price of a Tristan and the price of a Dominix over that same time scale you'll see that drops in the price of Trit generally correspond to drops in the price of the hulls as well.

Also, considering that we currently have more people playing than at any point in the last 2 years (meaning demand should be up for minerals) and yet we're at a historic 2 year low in mineral prices I do think it's fair to say that the price of minerals is crashing.

Oh, and CCP will not and should not directly intervene to make Excavator Mining Drones less expensive. The reason these drones are expensive is because of the cost of the components that go into them and the high demand for them at present, not because of any artificial market manipulation on the part of players.

CCP have already tweaked the supply of these materials once, but it's going to take a long while for anything like that to significantly impact the price of these drones, and even then just looking at the raw cost of the materials they'll never be less expensive than half a billion ISK each, and probably will continue to cost about what a Carrier hull costs.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#37 - 2017-02-17 15:48:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.
Algarion Getz
Aideron Corp
#38 - 2017-02-17 16:13:36 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
1 drone is about 20% more expensive than a carrier hull. I know its 'player driven' but at what point does it come abusive to the mechanics? I know they changed the requirements but months later the prices are unchanged. Fix it CCP. good grief. If you have to confiscate blueprints then do it. Enough is enough.

Because they are insanely overpowered. Reduce mining yield of the drones by at least 50%, then we can talk about lower prices.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#39 - 2017-02-17 16:49:51 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.
mkint
#40 - 2017-02-17 17:15:01 UTC
Brigadine Ferathine wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
When you see how much one can mine with the things, and notice how CCP jsut had to nerf the Rorq because it was mining TOO much, well the idea of cheaper excavator drones is just plum stupid. If anyhting they are too cheap.

Oh boo hoo. I am so sick of the bashing of people who don't PvP all the time. I know you cant stand that people can make isk without plex. I am done with the conversation. Its always the same 10 people who oppose EVERYTHING.

Like I said. Tantrum.

You still haven't given us a good reason for why, except for your own personal greed and ignorance, while there are hundreds of reasons to oppose. What you should have done is had your thesis be "I'm a special snowflake, so I should get all the free excavator drones I want while the price remains the same for everybody else." At least then the damage would be minimal, and it would be far more honest.

In an effort of moving the conversation forward without you, to everyone else who actually has some idea of what's really going on in the world, what *should* the price of excavator drones be? I assume the ideal price should be based on time to break even, and lifetime ROI. How long does it take to pay off a rack of drones? What is their risk of loss? What is the income vs loss rates for other activities, especially at a high level?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.