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[Kyonoke] Contagion Tracking, Containment, Planning

Author
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#481 - 2017-04-11 02:30:39 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
You have to think in terms of the greater picture, not just in terms of 'millions of quarantined patients'. Are you going to risk trillions just to save millions? To allow the administration of a poorly tested vaccine, declare the millions are saved, release them, and risk having them displaying symptoms all over again and infect everyone else?


I would, for the reasons given above.

Unchecked, Kyonoke is a massive gift to extinctionists like the Equilibrium of Mankind (the "equilibrium" they seek being the kind matter and antimatter attain-- annihilation). Spread the "basic" speck on Jita 4-4, and and even Anoikis would likely get hit.

Also, it's not properly a vaccine, I don't think. It's ... I'm not sure what, but Arrendis and I were both kind of speculating it was likely nanite-based (and she was yelling at me for speculating, but, eh).


So you are going for the short term solution instead of the long term one. To improperly test the vaccine or treatment or whatever just to save dead men walking, everyone else not in quarantine be damned, is that right? All because you are afraid of Kyonoke causing an extinction, which would happen regardless because *the vaccine isn't tested right*.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#482 - 2017-04-11 02:32:16 UTC
Now that the factions can see a glimpse of hope on the horizon, i hope they vaccinate people, move them to a secure location (the keepstar if needed), burn everything on the previous locations (and the pit) and lock them at the secure location until everything is tested out.

The Caldari citizens would collaborate with this without a doubt, i just don´t know about the other factions.

But again, capsuleers are the kind of people that goes around exploring unknown space and steal implants from dead corpses and plug them in without much questioning. So it can go either way.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#483 - 2017-04-11 02:34:20 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Even more so when we are dealing with things that will be administrated to the cluster.


Why are you presuming the procedures will be applied to the cluster? It concerns the ones on quarantine zones. The ones that were about to die anyway.


Because you are absolutely insane if you don't think there will be massive widespread demand for a vaccine/cure/antidote (because nobody seems to be sure what the hel it actually is, so maybe it's really just some damned voodoo curse) for the single most terrifying plague humanity has ever seen, after three weeks of 'OH MY GOD IT'S KYONOKE RUN FOR YOUR LIIIIIIIVES' combined with breathless reporting from Alton Haveri about how AMAZING and WONDERFUL this stuff is and how somehow, after 2 days of observation of the test subjects, this stuff's already going into distribution.

"They could make enough for a whole city in 'hours' according the Scope, why haven't they made enough for Caldari Prime a week later?"

The demand for this stuff will be slightly higher than the demand for oxygen in much of the cluster. If it's not legal, it'll be out on the black market, all because it's being presented as perfectly safe. And no, nobody's actually saying 'it's perfectly safe', but do you see even a single 'this is still highly experimental' or 'we don't know for sure this is safe', or even 'talk to your doctor about a reaction lasting more than four hours' anywhere in the coverage?
Arrendis
TK Corp
#484 - 2017-04-11 02:39:37 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

Use them as part of the test then.

The moment they are stuck in quarantine they are already dead men walking. Use them to save the rest of the cluster. If any of them are saved after 18 months of testing, that's a bonus.


But that is exactly what is being done!

They are the test ground for a vaccine prototype, they are being monitored, they will be watched, the efficacy will be tested, they will be observed for a while and then when everything is properly analyzed, we´ll have a final version.

If somehting goes bad in the meantime, burn everything and keep researching.


No, it's not. An entire city is not a controlled environment for testing. There are so many factors you cannot isolate to even quantify involved in a city's environment that it cannot serve as a primary testing ground. Nor do you want to test the treatment simultaneously on children and on adults in the same testing area.

As for being monitored... how? Proper testing would involve keeping specific individuals under consistent observation. I'm sorry, but you're not going to tell me that every man, woman, and child in there is wearing monitors to track heartbeat, metabolic rate, kidney function, brain activity... nope. Not happening. Especially not when nobody's been going in. And if you don't have that, you don't have the data you need.

That's not a testing ground. It's a cemetary.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#485 - 2017-04-11 02:43:11 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
and she was yelling at me for speculating, but, eh


Yes, I was, because when we're evaluating how sane the way they're proceeding is, 'I don't know what it is', clearly stated, is a lot better than 'I spoke to the nurse about xyzabc123. I think the treatment is...' which strongly implies actionable information.

"I don't know." If you don't know, that's the answer.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#486 - 2017-04-11 02:43:50 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So you are going for the short term solution instead of the long term one. To improperly test the vaccine or treatment or whatever just to save dead men walking, everyone else not in quarantine be damned, is that right? All because you are afraid of Kyonoke causing an extinction, which would happen regardless because *the vaccine isn't tested right*.


Well ... I'm one of those people, so, again, maybe my view is a little biased. I'm making periodic visits to medical to get my status checked. Still no sign of infection so far.

(Again: not properly a vaccine, I don't think.)

I expect research is ongoing.

You seem awfully confident that disaster not only might, but will follow if the cure isn't properly tested. Aside from resurgent plague, I'm having a little trouble seeing how the cure could be worse than the disease here. The disease, after all, is legendarily lethal and has a containment-breaching feature we still don't understand.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#487 - 2017-04-11 02:45:02 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Now that the factions can see a glimpse of hope on the horizon, i hope they vaccinate people, move them to a secure location (the keepstar if needed), burn everything on the previous locations (and the pit) and lock them at the secure location until everything is tested out.


Evacuating an entire city without risking wider contamination just from air movement would take longer than the testing regimen everyone's objecting to.
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#488 - 2017-04-11 02:50:03 UTC
There was a huge pressure from all the 4 groups to take advantage from the situation, now that they´re going to start from the same point (the research data being shared), i´m counting on more "proper procedure time" since they don´t have to be at each others neck and escalate the stuff since it´s out in the open.

That includes: People going into the quarantine zones to do things. Like they already started

As for the "cure", i hope that Gallente and Minmatar legislators regulate the actions of Poteque and Eifyr, limiting the vaccines to the quarantine zones like announced.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Arrendis
TK Corp
#489 - 2017-04-11 02:50:38 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

You seem awfully confident that disaster not only might, but will follow if the cure isn't properly tested. Aside from resurgent plague, I'm having a little trouble seeing how the cure could be worse than the disease here. The disease, after all, is legendarily lethal and has a containment-breaching feature we still don't understand.


It's more that there is no acceptable risk level for negligence-caused extinction. It doesn't matter how unlikely it might be that that will be the result, it's that sorry, no, that's not a chance that can be tolerated. Precisely because of the containment-breaching tendencies of the disease in question.

Ever heard of superbugs? Antibiotic-resistant pathogens that get created more or less by reckless exuberance in the use of anti-biotics?

Wanna make a Kyonoke superbug? Cuz I don't.

When you're playing with something that's already this deadly there is no room for error.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#490 - 2017-04-11 02:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
So you are going for the short term solution instead of the long term one. To improperly test the vaccine or treatment or whatever just to save dead men walking, everyone else not in quarantine be damned, is that right? All because you are afraid of Kyonoke causing an extinction, which would happen regardless because *the vaccine isn't tested right*.


Well ... I'm one of those people, so, again, maybe my view is a little biased. I'm making periodic visits to medical to get my status checked. Still no sign of infection so far.

(Again: not properly a vaccine, I don't think.)

I expect research is ongoing.

You seem awfully confident that disaster not only might, but will follow if the cure isn't properly tested. Aside from resurgent plague, I'm having a little trouble seeing how the cure could be worse than the disease here. The disease, after all, is legendarily lethal and has a containment-breaching feature we still don't understand.


Because it *will* follow. You cannot say that everyone's going to get Kyonoke, but you can say that people will be taking the vaccine as prevention. If that vaccine is unsafe due to improper testing, you just end up killing more people than Kyonoke would had.

Also, if you recognise your bias, FIX IT instead of using it to justify everything you are going to say.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#491 - 2017-04-11 02:57:47 UTC
I recognize the possibility of bias, Mr. Egivand. I concede that it might exist.

And if you talk me into killing myself unnecessarily I am going to haunt your beloved ship.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#492 - 2017-04-11 02:58:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Arrendis
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
That includes: People going into the quarantine zones to do things. Like they already started


No, they've already started preparing to go in there. And again: this is an entire city we're talking about. A team of half a dozen scientists going in and out through rigorous decontamination isn't even close to the same as sending in the equipment to monitor an entire city's vitals.

Personally, I'm kinda expecting to see the treatment procedures in that city cause riots, simply because nobody is going to want to be the guy who gets told 'Your kid who's showing Stage 2 symptoms has to wait four more days, there's six million people ahead of you on line'. Good luck getting that administered to everyone without a significant incident.

Quote:

As for the "cure", i hope that Gallente and Minmatar legislators regulate the actions of Poteque and Eifyr, limiting the vaccines to the quarantine zones like announced.


Minmatar whats?

Chiefs. You mean the Chiefs. There's seven of them. That's how they get **** actually done. Yes, there's an advisory body that likes to act like a legislature, but nobody cares about, or pays attention to, them.

And... Eifyr's been pretty much linked to every single illegal and black-market booster and drug cocktail trade ring in the cluster at one point or another. Heck, it's in the official company profile! Good luck keeping them from profiting off of this on the black market.

Edit to add: Also, you should probably re-read the announcement you claim says the treatment's being limited to the quarantine zones. It says nothing about limiting it, only that it's already going to two of the quarantine zones, and they expect it will be rolled out to the others 'as soon as possible'. Nothing in there whatsoever about 'it's not going to be made available to all you panicked consumers screaming 'TAKE MY MONEY BUT SAVE MY BABY' out there.!'
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#493 - 2017-04-11 03:14:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I recognize the possibility of bias, Mr. Egivand. I concede that it might exist.

And if you talk me into killing myself unnecessarily I am going to haunt your beloved ship.


I am telling you to not allow your fear of infection and the pathogen to cause you to advocate risking trillions of other people, including those not infected, to save your own hide.

Besides, shouldn't you be preparing a report for your backup clone just in case you snuff it? I lost a clone outside the pod once and I had to spend an entire month digging around all my logs and my staff's logs to figure out what had happened. Do yourself a favour and make it easy for your backup just in case. Better to do something you have control over than to fret over something you have no control over, such as whether or not you are infected.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#494 - 2017-04-11 03:33:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I recognize the possibility of bias, Mr. Egivand. I concede that it might exist.

And if you talk me into killing myself unnecessarily I am going to haunt your beloved ship.


I am telling you to not allow your fear of infection and the pathogen to cause you to advocate risking trillions of other people, including those not infected, to save your own hide.

Besides, shouldn't you be preparing a report for your backup clone just in case you snuff it? I lost a clone outside the pod once and I had to spend an entire month digging around all my logs and my staff's logs to figure out what had happened. Do yourself a favour and make it easy for your backup just in case. Better to do something you have control over than to fret over something you have no control over, such as whether or not you are infected.


Mr. Egivand, I am, or was, almost certainly infected. I'd been in a contagion-ridden section of the station for days, spoke closely with the primary source of the infection twice, and attended briefings he was present at six times.

He had a nasty cough.

So I was probably in the incubation period when I got dosed with the hopefully-cure the day before yesterday, and I've been preparing a log for my backup ever since I arrived here in expectation that there was a good chance I wouldn't survive.

Somewhere along the line my willingness to treat death as a casual thing kind of wore down, though. It's not like I haven't faced what I thought were non-survivable situations before, but ... this is different, somehow. I guess, before, at least I could fight back, even if it was hopeless.

This time....

I'm afraid. I'm really scared. And I don't know what to do about it.

(To make matters worse, I don't even think I'm probably going to die unless it's by my own hand. The cure's ... strange. I don't really get the sense that it's going to fail in any ordinary way. It might fail in some extraordinary way, though.)
Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#495 - 2017-04-11 03:36:25 UTC
Arrendis wrote:

Minmatar whats?

Chiefs. You mean the Chiefs. There's seven of them. That's how they get **** actually done. Yes, there's an advisory body that likes to act like a legislature, but nobody cares about, or pays attention to, them.


Do the chiefs legislate? If so, they´re legislators. I can´t be more comprehensive than that.


Quote:

And... Eifyr's been pretty much linked to every single illegal and black-market booster and drug cocktail trade ring in the cluster at one point or another. Heck, it's in the official company profile! Good luck keeping them from profiting off of this on the black market.

Edit to add: Also, you should probably re-read the announcement you claim says the treatment's being limited to the quarantine zones. It says nothing about limiting it, only that it's already going to two of the quarantine zones, and they expect it will be rolled out to the others 'as soon as possible'. Nothing in there whatsoever about 'it's not going to be made available to all you panicked consumers screaming 'TAKE MY MONEY BUT SAVE MY BABY' out there.!'


There´s nothing saying that they´ll distribute it around the cluster. And if all goes right, Kyonoke dies at the quarantine zones and the pit, so no need to distribute a cure.

I think the majority of the population would know the difference between a vaccine and a cure.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#496 - 2017-04-11 03:40:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
I recognize the possibility of bias, Mr. Egivand. I concede that it might exist.

And if you talk me into killing myself unnecessarily I am going to haunt your beloved ship.


I am telling you to not allow your fear of infection and the pathogen to cause you to advocate risking trillions of other people, including those not infected, to save your own hide.

Besides, shouldn't you be preparing a report for your backup clone just in case you snuff it? I lost a clone outside the pod once and I had to spend an entire month digging around all my logs and my staff's logs to figure out what had happened. Do yourself a favour and make it easy for your backup just in case. Better to do something you have control over than to fret over something you have no control over, such as whether or not you are infected.


Mr. Egivand, I am, or was, almost certainly infected. I'd been in a contagion-ridden section of the station for days, spoke closely with the primary source of the infection twice, and attended briefings he was present at six times.

He had a nasty cough.

So I was probably in the incubation period when I got dosed with the hopefully-cure the day before yesterday, and I've been preparing a log for my backup ever since I arrived here in expectation that there was a good chance I wouldn't survive.

Somewhere along the line my willingness to treat death as a casual thing kind of wore down, though. It's not like I haven't faced what I thought were non-survivable situations before, but ... this is different, somehow. I guess, before, at least I could fight back, even if it was hopeless.

This time....

I'm afraid. I'm really scared. And I don't know what to do about it.


I do not treat death as a casual thing, I treat it as an inevitability. One day, I am going to lose this clone, outside the pod, despite every precaution and contingency. I can fight as much as I want, but I *will* lose the fight one day. Make peace with this fact and be prepared to face it when the time comes.

To fear is human. To respond with rather than against fear is animal.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#497 - 2017-04-11 03:44:29 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:
I do not treat death as a casual thing, I treat it as an inevitability. One day, I am going to lose this clone, outside the pod, despite every precaution and contingency. I can fight as much as I want, but I *will* lose the fight one day. Make peace with this fact and be prepared to face it when the time comes.

To fear is human. To respond with rather than against fear is animal.

... I guess it would be a little unreasonable to expect you to understand why this is really insulting.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#498 - 2017-04-11 04:09:59 UTC
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:


There´s nothing saying that they´ll distribute it around the cluster. And if all goes right, Kyonoke dies at the quarantine zones and the pit, so no need to distribute a cure.

I think the majority of the population would know the difference between a vaccine and a cure.


You forgot about the previous breaches into Kyonoke Pit and those vessels being unaccounted for. There are no guarantees that Kyonoke will not resurface.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Morgana Tsukiyo
Samsara Dynamics
#499 - 2017-04-11 04:13:20 UTC
Elmund Egivand wrote:

You forgot about the previous breaches into Kyonoke Pit and those vessels being unaccounted for. There are no guarantees that Kyonoke will not resurface.


If it does, then more quarantine zones, more test subjects, and by that time, a fully funcitional antidote.

Join Project Transcendence.

Applied technology for the enhancement of human experience.

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#500 - 2017-04-11 05:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Elmund Egivand
Morgana Tsukiyo wrote:
Elmund Egivand wrote:

You forgot about the previous breaches into Kyonoke Pit and those vessels being unaccounted for. There are no guarantees that Kyonoke will not resurface.


If it does, then more quarantine zones, more test subjects, and by that time, a fully funcitional antidote.


Better sort this mess this time than to wait for the bloody thing to show up again. Do you prefer to double the total death toll of the Kyonoke disease, because we do not already have a proper solution the next time it showed up, or fix the mess within the year so that we have the means to combat the disease properly the next time it turned up?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.