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Starlifter Tech I and Starlifter Vanguard Tech II Transport Ship
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Ronnie Rose
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2017-02-17 04:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronnie Rose
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Couple of points real quick.

First off, it's impossible in the Eve code right now for a ship to carry other players. Something like this has been discussed literally longer than I've been in Eve, and it's still not possible in Code. We're getting there, but not yet.

Second, any hold that can carry a pod (an assembled ship) can not also carry packaged ships. Ship Hangars are packaged only and quite intentionally so.

Third, ship facing is entirely an artifact of travel direction. When you jump through a gate your ship has no "facing" it's entirely a client-side effect. Your Align Time to warp is from this position and is direction independent. If you can insta-warp you can insta-warp, facing has nothing to do with it.

There is no ship in the game that is immune to probes, and for good reason. If you want to be scan-proof then fit a cloak.

Bubbles are all or nothing, there is no "modestly affected". Either your warp is disrupted by them or it isn't.


Hello,

First, by modestly effected I mean the Starlifter Tech I can be stopped by a warp bubble, but can turn itself away and use its emergency warp to get out of the bubble.

Second, all the other points you make are about the current limitations in EVE's code design, and none about the merits of the concept (positive, negative or indifferent).

Thanks.

We're not here to change the game, we're here to change YOUR game
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#42 - 2017-02-17 05:58:09 UTC
Ronnie Rose wrote:
Thank you for the responses, anyway. I think the Starlifter concept would be a game changer in many ways.

For one it would not be a bowhead (that's one ugly ship). I would propose it's cargo is limited to 25,000 m3. That's four pods (1000 m3), four packaged destroyers (5000 m3) and a 1000 m3 to spare for fittings. So a 25,000 m3 is waaaaaay under a Bowhead, you could not compare it to that.

Secondly, some of you think this ship would be broken. I argue that it would not be broken in EVE. For one you would not beable to use any high slot items that would include weapons, salvagers, cloaks, probe launchers, cyno or jump portal devices and other things. So the ship is very limited to do one thing and that is transport.

I think, however some of you are bothered by the idea that this ship being difficult to target (not impossible but difficult) would mean in could allow players access to null spaces jealously guarded by some alliances (cough, cough), so yeah I could see why some folks wanting to protect their special interests by being dismissive about this concept. Further more it just eats at those who just want to camp at gates and keep people out of space, and being powerless to stop them I guess.

But the whole point of this ship is to do just that and that is to get players out to low and to null and to wormhole space.

And as for this concept being unoriginal because there has been other pods transport ships proposed, I think those ideas were proposed to solve other minor problem, but I see as a problem is a lack of player participation in all parts of EVE space as a liability to this game, and that will put it back where it was before CCP introduced Alpha Clones, which is stagnant growth, the bane to any profit model of a game.

Believe me, this idea of the Starlifter is really for the benefit of EVE and its players, not some fancy wish list from a player wanting a pink pony. I put a lot of thought in this idea because I love EVE, but I see it's short comings.

What are you going to do in nullsec, in hostile territory, with 4 destroyers?

Goons will drop Titans on you for example.

Also, since the ships are packaged, how do you propose fitting them when they are dropped in space?

If the answer to that is well you need to dock somewhere first, then how are you bypassing gate camps if these 4 destroyers then need to fly into the guarded nullsec systems?

Ultimately, if the 4 players being transported have to be online anyway (which they would), why not just fly as a fleet of 5?
Ronnie Rose
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2017-02-17 06:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ronnie Rose
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Ronnie Rose wrote:
Thank you for the responses, anyway. I think the Starlifter concept would be a game changer in many ways.

For one it would not be a bowhead (that's one ugly ship). I would propose it's cargo is limited to 25,000 m3. That's four pods (1000 m3), four packaged destroyers (5000 m3) and a 1000 m3 to spare for fittings. So a 25,000 m3 is waaaaaay under a Bowhead, you could not compare it to that.

Secondly, some of you think this ship would be broken. I argue that it would not be broken in EVE. For one you would not beable to use any high slot items that would include weapons, salvagers, cloaks, probe launchers, cyno or jump portal devices and other things. So the ship is very limited to do one thing and that is transport.

I think, however some of you are bothered by the idea that this ship being difficult to target (not impossible but difficult) would mean in could allow players access to null spaces jealously guarded by some alliances (cough, cough), so yeah I could see why some folks wanting to protect their special interests by being dismissive about this concept. Further more it just eats at those who just want to camp at gates and keep people out of space, and being powerless to stop them I guess.

But the whole point of this ship is to do just that and that is to get players out to low and to null and to wormhole space.

And as for this concept being unoriginal because there has been other pods transport ships proposed, I think those ideas were proposed to solve other minor problem, but I see as a problem is a lack of player participation in all parts of EVE space as a liability to this game, and that will put it back where it was before CCP introduced Alpha Clones, which is stagnant growth, the bane to any profit model of a game.

Believe me, this idea of the Starlifter is really for the benefit of EVE and its players, not some fancy wish list from a player wanting a pink pony. I put a lot of thought in this idea because I love EVE, but I see it's short comings.

What are you going to do in nullsec, in hostile territory, with 4 destroyers?

Goons will drop Titans on you for example.

Also, since the ships are packaged, how do you propose fitting them when they are dropped in space?

If the answer to that is well you need to dock somewhere first, then how are you bypassing gate camps if these 4 destroyers then need to fly into the guarded nullsec systems?

Ultimately, if the 4 players being transported have to be online anyway (which they would), why not just fly as a fleet of 5?


Those are actually good question, because they are constructive.

I've thought of the package ship issue and the only thing I can think of for assembling them in space is with a mobile depot. But that would likely require modifying a mobile depot to this (although it would be interesting to see if it can already be done, jettison a packaged ship in space and see if it can be assemble near a mobile depot?)

The second issue I agree with you, you can't do much with a single Starlifter carrying four packaged destroyers (BTW with 25K m3 you could also carry 2 cruisers at 10K m3 packaged, 1 Battle cruiser 15K m3, even 1 industrial packaged at 20K m3). But having an invasion fleet supported by several fleets of Starlifters could be a different story. It would require really good coordination and planning for fleet ops to pull it off, that would make the game interesting by just exploring how to make it work.

Oh and why not fly like five separate ships? Remember the Starlifter passengers do not show up in local or in overview. And since they cannot be scanned down, once they leave the gate they can set the stage for an invasion by placing book marks anywhere in the system. They could do this by stopping at anytime in mid warp or even using the emergency warp function to go in some random direction.

We're not here to change the game, we're here to change YOUR game
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2017-02-17 07:15:43 UTC
It is a literally uncatchable nullified industrial four times the size of an agility fit blockade runner.

Why is that a good thing?

Why do we need more nullified ships?

Are you aware that power projection covers moving pilots as well as moving ships? Do you think that a few spy alts using these things to deposit fifty PL pilots in Goon stations, or vice versa, with absolutely no way whatsoever of spotting them on the way in is a good thing?

How is any ship that can waltz away from literally any threat not horribly broken even before you get to stats?
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#45 - 2017-02-17 07:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Ronnie Rose wrote:
I've thought of the package ship issue and the only thing I can think of for assembling them in space is with a mobile depot. But that would likely require modifying a mobile depot to this (although it would be interesting to see if it can already be done, jettison a packaged ship in space and see if it can be assemble near a mobile depot?)

No, you can't assemble a ship in space off a mobile depot, but assuming for a second that this change is also made to mobile depots, then the next question is:

How do you deploy the mobile depot?

You're in a pod. Pods can't deploy anything and the pilot of the transport ship can't deploy it, because a mobile depot that I deploy, you can't refit off.

So as the pilot of the transport ship, I eject you, your packaged ship and fit and a mobile depot. What do you do with it?
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2017-02-17 07:19:28 UTC
Features:
- Stop the ship before the warp exit is arrived
- emergency warp --> under 2 sec warp feature
- Imune to combat scanning probes
- Nullified
- 8-14 sec targeting delay
- Not flyable from criminals in highsec


So in a nutshell you create a ship which need at least 10-16 sec to target but warps in < 2 sec. Also can drop out of the warp whenever it wants, the t2 version is nullified and it can´t be probed out. Also for some bull**it reason you can´t fly it in highsec because of concord. Nope to every feature! Use the rorqual.


I have more but I'll just stop for now.

Yes thank you enough for this year. Maybe i check it out next year

-1
Wolfgang Jannesen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2017-02-17 07:32:51 UTC
I think the concept of moving other capsules around is interesting, but I don't think it's necessary. More than anything, when you operate in null you're always dealing with the hazards of null, your trip out there isn't different than any other 15j trip throug 0.0 space. I don't see the necessity in hauling people out to null versus having people fly out to null in fleets.

Not to mention \o/ now you're out in null with a ship
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2017-02-17 07:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
One invasion fleet and several fleets of starlifters. Why not just have several invasion fleets, ones that can be toyed with/attacked/foiled while in space and actually offering content to the people who, in your scenario, are in pods not actively playing and waiting for the one pilot to:

1) drop a depot
2) assemble each ship and fit it
3) finally deploy the pod

That is just the people on the starlifter. What the enemies could do, because you have to gate, is just pipebomb you. When that happens people aboard your starlifter are going to be even more bored and probably turn off the game for however long because whatever muggins was flying the starlifter just lost their clones, implants, ships, fittings and time.

Eve stagnating because it is not interesting and will be made more interesting for players with your idea? Hardly. You have just put every person aboard your ship into a state of boredom. Doesn't sound like a selling point. I don't even know where to start and really don't feel like writing a great-wall-of-china-text post just to show you how bad your mary-sue ship is point by point.

You can tell yourself people (Grr Cough Cough) hate your idea because its so good, that you have thought about it so much that it can't possibly not work, that it will be exciting and dynamic and you'll be the hero of eve! They hate your idea because its awesomer than awesome with so much built in awesome it doesn't need awesomeness rigs and will singlehandedly ruin their game!!!111

Ponys got nothing on this. Your idea is a full on furry-rainbow-**i*ting-unicorn-sexbot that makes coffee, icecream, sammiches and loves you.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#49 - 2017-02-17 12:35:27 UTC
OOOOOOOOOOOOH that's why you didn't want to explain the idea



its OPAF and you knew it


BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#50 - 2017-02-17 14:20:22 UTC
It can emergency warp out of bubbles but cannot be targeted before it warps AND cannot be smartbombed because it can drop out of warp the moment it detects a smart bomber on d-scan?

It's insanely hard to counter. Like luxury yacht hard which is a silly ship with about 30m3 cargo. You want 25k? I don't think it needs to carry pods. Jump clone bays kinda do that.


If the whole point is to get a small fleet behind enemy lines, use blops and covert ships like T3's, bombers and recons. Or blops and blockade runners if you're trying to get supplies through heavily camped areas.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2017-02-17 14:23:23 UTC
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
One invasion fleet and several fleets of starlifters. Why not just have several invasion fleets, ones that can be toyed with/attacked/foiled while in space and actually offering content to the people who, in your scenario, are in pods not actively playing and waiting for the one pilot to:

1) drop a depot
2) assemble each ship and fit it
3) finally deploy the pod

That is just the people on the starlifter. What the enemies could do, because you have to gate, is just pipebomb you. When that happens people aboard your starlifter are going to be even more bored and probably turn off the game for however long because whatever muggins was flying the starlifter just lost their clones, implants, ships, fittings and time.

Eve stagnating because it is not interesting and will be made more interesting for players with your idea? Hardly. You have just put every person aboard your ship into a state of boredom. Doesn't sound like a selling point. I don't even know where to start and really don't feel like writing a great-wall-of-china-text post just to show you how bad your mary-sue ship is point by point.

You can tell yourself people (Grr Cough Cough) hate your idea because its so good, that you have thought about it so much that it can't possibly not work, that it will be exciting and dynamic and you'll be the hero of eve! They hate your idea because its awesomer than awesome with so much built in awesome it doesn't need awesomeness rigs and will singlehandedly ruin their game!!!111

Ponys got nothing on this. Your idea is a full on furry-rainbow-**i*ting-unicorn-sexbot that makes coffee, icecream, sammiches and loves you.


You are assuming Are you somehow implying this stuff would have a flimsy enough tank to be pipe bombed?Re-read the rest of the idea and tell me without lying if you think this ship has any chance of not being requested with a stiff tank.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2017-02-17 14:26:32 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
It can emergency warp out of bubbles but cannot be targeted before it warps AND cannot be smartbombed because it can drop out of warp the moment it detects a smart bomber on d-scan?

It's insanely hard to counter. Like luxury yacht hard which is a silly ship with about 30m3 cargo. You want 25k? I don't think it needs to carry pods. Jump clone bays kinda do that.


If the whole point is to get a small fleet behind enemy lines, use blops and covert ships like T3's, bombers and recons. Or blops and blockade runners if you're trying to get supplies through heavily camped areas.


A whole 4 destroyer fleet assuming there is ever a way to assemble the damn thing in space. That's her proposition because that way, it's not a bowhead with all those feature. Just a mini bowhead with all those feature.
Cade Windstalker
#53 - 2017-02-17 14:35:57 UTC
Ronnie Rose wrote:
Hello,

First, by modestly effected I mean the Starlifter Tech I can be stopped by a warp bubble, but can turn itself away and use its emergency warp to get out of the bubble.

Second, all the other points you make are about the current limitations in EVE's code design, and none about the merits of the concept (positive, negative or indifferent).

Thanks.


Yup, but what is or isn't possible at present factors into the merits of a concept, since everything takes time to implement. If your idea's balance relies on reworking the way align times are calculated then it's not going to fly, that's too much work for one ship and would have adverse effects on other areas of the game.

I'm not saying this is necessarily the case for your idea, I'm just explaining why most of my post was "this runs into technical limitations", because something that is currently impossible in Eve and would be hard to add has automatic marks against it for those reasons.

Personally I think your idea sounds like a travel interceptor without the bubble immunity and with the ability for 20-odd other pilots to AFK themselves across space without even the need to hit a jump button occasionally. Anything that can carry multiple people should be slower and easier to catch as a tradeoff for that ability, not amazingly quick and hard to catch in addition to it.
Dark Lord Trump
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2017-02-17 14:36:03 UTC
So it can move 4 people in small ships. No one is going to use this, except as a super blockade runner since there's literally no way to catch it barring egregious pilot stupidity.

I'm going to build a big wall that will keep the Gallente out, and they're going to pay for it!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2017-02-17 15:28:06 UTC
If we enable assembling ships in space off a mobile depot, it might be worth a look at what the actual align time of a webbed freighter. If it's fast enough to be worth a try, you could haul a fleet of cruisers with their pilots riding along and webbing the freighter into warp up to the point where they ditch their inty and get back into cruisers for example. I still think it's stupid but I am not the best at finding abusable things so just raising the flags so they real brain can work it out.
Cade Windstalker
#56 - 2017-02-17 16:17:10 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If we enable assembling ships in space off a mobile depot, it might be worth a look at what the actual align time of a webbed freighter. If it's fast enough to be worth a try, you could haul a fleet of cruisers with their pilots riding along and webbing the freighter into warp up to the point where they ditch their inty and get back into cruisers for example. I still think it's stupid but I am not the best at finding abusable things so just raising the flags so they real brain can work it out.


You don't need to enable anything, ships get assembled automatically when thrown out of a ship. What you can't do is fit them.

Freighters, IIRC, can't actually kick stuff out of their holds in space so this is prevented. It's also the reason blowing up a Freighter full of packaged ships doesn't result in a lag bomb, because Freighters behave differently from other wrecks where containers would normally be kicked out as their own thing if they survive the ship getting kaploded.
Scialt
Corporate Navy Police Force
Sleep Reapers
#57 - 2017-02-17 16:44:05 UTC
I'm not sure about "online" player transport... but I think that transporting a jump clone in a pod that is NOT active (either in a specialized ship or a regular one) should be doable.

Using this example (which I'm not all that sure I agree with)... The ship could pick up "travel jump clones" of 10 players from X... drop them off at Y... and then players could jump to those clones.

Overall this would only be helpful in certain situations where the players have access to jump clone facilities. But I can see a place for that in the game.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#58 - 2017-02-17 18:51:16 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
If we enable assembling ships in space off a mobile depot, it might be worth a look at what the actual align time of a webbed freighter. If it's fast enough to be worth a try, you could haul a fleet of cruisers with their pilots riding along and webbing the freighter into warp up to the point where they ditch their inty and get back into cruisers for example. I still think it's stupid but I am not the best at finding abusable things so just raising the flags so they real brain can work it out.


You don't need to enable anything, ships get assembled automatically when thrown out of a ship. What you can't do is fit them.

Freighters, IIRC, can't actually kick stuff out of their holds in space so this is prevented. It's also the reason blowing up a Freighter full of packaged ships doesn't result in a lag bomb, because Freighters behave differently from other wrecks where containers would normally be kicked out as their own thing if they survive the ship getting kaploded.


You mean that if I kick a packaged ship outside of a hauler, it get unpacked and assembled?

And while you can't deploy mobile depot for someone else, can you drop them in a can so the newly dropped ship's pilots can pick them up and then deploy to refit?
Cade Windstalker
#59 - 2017-02-17 19:21:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You mean that if I kick a packaged ship outside of a hauler, it get unpacked and assembled?

And while you can't deploy mobile depot for someone else, can you drop them in a can so the newly dropped ship's pilots can pick them up and then deploy to refit?


You could drop modules but I don't think a mobile depot will go into a container due to the no containers in containers restriction. I'd have to double check if it'll allow a packaged one to be ejected in a can though.

Honestly that's over complicated though, you could just use a ship with a Fleet Hangar and have people grab stuff out of that.

But yes, to answer the original question, it's currently fully possible right now to move a packaged ship to a location in space, eject it, and have someone board it and fit it out.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2017-02-17 19:46:50 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You mean that if I kick a packaged ship outside of a hauler, it get unpacked and assembled?

And while you can't deploy mobile depot for someone else, can you drop them in a can so the newly dropped ship's pilots can pick them up and then deploy to refit?


You could drop modules but I don't think a mobile depot will go into a container due to the no containers in containers restriction. I'd have to double check if it'll allow a packaged one to be ejected in a can though.

Honestly that's over complicated though, you could just use a ship with a Fleet Hangar and have people grab stuff out of that.

But yes, to answer the original question, it's currently fully possible right now to move a packaged ship to a location in space, eject it, and have someone board it and fit it out.


You can't jettison a depot, I just tried.

You also can't launch or jettison an unassembled ship from your cargo bay (or fleet hanger, since I tried punting a rifter out of my dst). Nor can you toss out an assembled one from either bay, unless the buttons to do this kind of thing are hidden somewhere other than the right click menu.