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Triage and Siege module needs to have a reduction to tactical refit
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D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#1 - 2017-02-09 13:41:17 UTC
tactical refit is fine for other ships since they can receive reps and get off field. However for dreads and fax it is too much of a hindereance for these ships to have to be stuck on field receive no fleet assistance and have to wait one minute to refit. It's ridiculous a, boring gameplay and creates stale ship fights.

I suggest a reduction with t2 siege and triage that takes the refit timer down to 10 seconds with max skills. Then if ccp deems 10 seconds to powerful... (wont be) then they can raise it.

With the addition of capital neuts and combat carriers no dread or triage ever has cap. they need to be able to refit to a cap resistant fit and onen with more tank. one minute is too long and sees hat this never happens.

either reduce this timer or get rid of these ships ability to receive assistance. Maybe at least allow them to receive remote capacitor transfers.
Edit
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2017-02-09 13:46:38 UTC
D'Om K'vash wrote:
tactical refit is fine for other ships since they can receive reps and get off field. However for dreads and fax it is too much of a hindereance for these ships to have to be stuck on field receive no fleet assistance and have to wait one minute to refit. It's ridiculous a, boring gameplay and creates stale ship fights.

I suggest a reduction with t2 siege and triage that takes the refit timer down to 10 seconds with max skills. Then if ccp deems 10 seconds to powerful... (wont be) then they can raise it.

With the addition of capital neuts and combat carriers no dread or triage ever has cap. they need to be able to refit to a cap resistant fit and onen with more tank. one minute is too long and sees hat this never happens.

either reduce this timer or get rid of these ships ability to receive assistance. Maybe at least allow them to receive remote capacitor transfers.
Edit


The problem with the refit would be 1. in wh-space the faxe would be almost unkillable. Most Faxes are cap injected fit so even if they are dry they don´t care because they inject and start the cyle.

Also no remote support for dreads / Faxes in siege. I would also include carrier/supers with active Sensor Array.

-1
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2017-02-09 15:25:04 UTC
refit was fine under the old mechanics and was one of the most fun and skill based things in EvE however CCP decided it would be best to add new toys to capitals at the cost of removing this gameplay

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cade Windstalker
#4 - 2017-02-09 15:30:40 UTC
This is a pretty blatant "please let me be able to refit to hard counter again, thanks" request. Your requested refit timer is 2 seconds shorter than the cycle time on a Sieged Nag's capital Arty. They would literally be able to refit between cycles.

CCP nerfed this for a reason, and the primary part of that reason was Capital Ships not having to make fitting decisions. Your fitting choices should matter and that has absolutely nothing to do with Siege or Triage mode and the cost or benefit therein. If you're sieged and it's not worth it for you to refit then that's your cost-benefit analysis on that choice, it's not inherently a problem just because you find it boring.

If you find yourself neuted out then fit more cap resist before you undock. If that's too weak against other thing then... well that's the trade-off in fitting now isn't it?

-1
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2017-02-09 17:50:25 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:

CCP nerfed this for a reason, and the primary part of that reason was Capital Ships not having to make fitting decisions. Your fitting choices should matter and that has absolutely nothing to do with Siege or Triage mode and the cost or benefit therein. If you're sieged and it's not worth it for you to refit then that's your cost-benefit analysis on that choice, it's not inherently a problem just because you find it boring.



-1



i love how ignorant post like this are about how combat refitting worked


there was still a great deal of fitting choice and it was never as easy as fitting a "hard counter" i meant what i said when i called it the most skill intensive part of eve. It was not removed because it was broken at the time it was removed because it was about to get broken with the new mods and mechanics.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cade Windstalker
#6 - 2017-02-09 19:08:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
i love how ignorant post like this are about how combat refitting worked


there was still a great deal of fitting choice and it was never as easy as fitting a "hard counter" i meant what i said when i called it the most skill intensive part of eve. It was not removed because it was broken at the time it was removed because it was about to get broken with the new mods and mechanics.


I'm going to quote from CCP's original dev blog on why they made the change here...

Quote:
...
Let’s talk about why we want to make this change. We feel that it’s essential to the fitting game, and all combat in the game, that you have to make commitment to decisions. These commitments scale depending on their impact (think ammo choice vs ship choice), but ultimately all of EVE is a about meaningful choices and their consequences.

Refitting in space removed an enormous amount of commitment, basically offering all possible fittings to any ship at any time, so long as they have a Capital/Nestor/Depot nearby. The addition of more refitting service options (Depots, Nestors) has brought this issue into sharper relief but the underlying design flaw has been in EVE for many years.
...


and further down...

Quote:
...
It's not simply about carriers refitting from tank to damage and back, or Macharials swapping autocannons and artillery, or ships fitting warp core stabs mid-combat, or switching racial jammers, or capitals fitting shield, armor and hull tanks to vastly increase their EHP. All of these issues are simply symptoms of the same underlying issue and if we were to deal with each of them individually more related problems would sprout up in their place.
....


They then go on to flat out state that the new modules were in response to their desire to remove the refitting issue, for everyone not just caps, not the other way around.
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
Just Lizard
#7 - 2017-02-09 19:18:01 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
refit was fine under the old mechanics and was one of the most fun and skill based things in EvE however CCP decided it would be best to add new toys to capitals at the cost of removing this gameplay




Combat refitting in a dread under fire was the most fun, challenging and awesome aspect of this game for me. Removing it is definitively part of why dreads have been relegated to a press siege, press f1 til dead or enemy dead role. In the old system, a good dread pilot with a good understanding of when, what and how to refit was worth his weight in gold, as the expression goes.


#Always_bitter




That being said, I understand the scaling affect and how it was being used with triage carriers and why that was problematic. The issue, as is usually but not always the case, was not the small scale of Eve, but rather the implications across the larger universe(the whole wrecking ball fleet and fitting for max cap/dps until taking damage then quick swap to hardeners for reps thing) I still feel that CCP took the 'we can't be assed so we're just gonna take our toys and go home' option though.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Lugh Crow-Slave
#8 - 2017-02-10 01:05:46 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


That being said, I understand the scaling affect and how it was being used with triage carriers and why that was problematic. The issue, as is usually but not always the case, was not the small scale of Eve, but rather the implications across the larger universe(the whole wrecking ball fleet and fitting for max cap/dps until taking damage then quick swap to hardeners for reps thing) I still feel that CCP took the 'we can't be assed so we're just gonna take our toys and go home' option though.


but this was only something the enhanced the issue of spider tanking carriers had those been removed and nothing else change triage refitting would have been fine

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#9 - 2017-02-10 01:25:57 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
This is a pretty blatant "please let me be able to refit to hard counter again, thanks" request. Your requested refit timer is 2 seconds shorter than the cycle time on a Sieged Nag's capital Arty. They would literally be able to refit between cycles.

CCP nerfed this for a reason, and the primary part of that reason was Capital Ships not having to make fitting decisions. Your fitting choices should matter and that has absolutely nothing to do with Siege or Triage mode and the cost or benefit therein. If you're sieged and it's not worth it for you to refit then that's your cost-benefit analysis on that choice, it's not inherently a problem just because you find it boring.

If you find yourself neuted out then fit more cap resist before you undock. If that's too weak against other thing then... well that's the trade-off in fitting now isn't it?

-1



10 seconds was only a suggestion and nobody uses arty nags so your point is terrible. And if someone does use arty nag then they will be worthless once the fleet gets under their guns which will take abou 5 seconds for any competent fleet. Also they nerfed it before they added op'd capital neuts and gave carriers the ability to do 3k dmg while receiving reps and again ability to fit 2-3 cap neuts.
D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#10 - 2017-02-10 01:27:35 UTC


The problem with the refit would be 1. in wh-space the faxe would be almost unkillable. Most Faxes are cap injected fit so even if they are dry they don´t care because they inject and start the cyle.

Also no remote support for dreads / Faxes in siege. I would also include carrier/supers with active Sensor Array.

-1[/quote]

You would think so but if you put 1 neut carrier and a bhalgorn on a fax.. believe me it will die. If you have 2 archons and 1 bhaalgron it will never have cap but for brief moments.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#11 - 2017-02-10 01:30:23 UTC
D'Om K'vash wrote:


The problem with the refit would be 1. in wh-space the faxe would be almost unkillable. Most Faxes are cap injected fit so even if they are dry they don´t care because they inject and start the cyle.

Also no remote support for dreads / Faxes in siege. I would also include carrier/supers with active Sensor Array.

-1


You would think so but if you put 1 neut carrier and a bhalgorn on a fax.. believe me it will die. If you have 2 archons and 1 bhaalgron it will never have cap but for brief moments.[/quote]


not sure you understand how the worm hole works 4/6 classes you will not be able to bring in a carrier currently the only way to kill them is void bombs and waiting out their near endless cap pool since they carry DSTs full of charges

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#12 - 2017-02-10 01:31:45 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
refit was fine under the old mechanics and was one of the most fun and skill based things in EvE however CCP decided it would be best to add new toys to capitals at the cost of removing this gameplay




Combat refitting in a dread under fire was the most fun, challenging and awesome aspect of this game for me. Removing it is definitively part of why dreads have been relegated to a press siege, press f1 til dead or enemy dead role. In the old system, a good dread pilot with a good understanding of when, what and how to refit was worth his weight in gold, as the expression goes.


#Always_bitter




That being said, I understand the scaling affect and how it was being used with triage carriers and why that was problematic. The issue, as is usually but not always the case, was not the small scale of Eve, but rather the implications across the larger universe(the whole wrecking ball fleet and fitting for max cap/dps until taking damage then quick swap to hardeners for reps thing) I still feel that CCP took the 'we can't be assed so we're just gonna take our toys and go home' option though.



I agree 100% and with the fun aspect which is why I think it needs to be brought back.. not no timer but less then 1 minute. even 30 seconds or how bout 20 seconds which is the time of the emergency hull module. I think that this topic needs to be discussed and brought back to attention because 1 minute is too long when you consider all the xtra dmg that is on the field. along with neuts ect.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2017-02-10 01:35:41 UTC
to be honest the mechanic is just dead. even with a 20s timer it just wont have the same frenzied game-play it used to.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#14 - 2017-02-10 01:36:10 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
D'Om K'vash wrote:


The problem with the refit would be 1. in wh-space the faxe would be almost unkillable. Most Faxes are cap injected fit so even if they are dry they don´t care because they inject and start the cyle.

Also no remote support for dreads / Faxes in siege. I would also include carrier/supers with active Sensor Array.

-1


You would think so but if you put 1 neut carrier and a bhalgorn on a fax.. believe me it will die. If you have 2 archons and 1 bhaalgron it will never have cap but for brief moments.



not sure you understand how the worm hole works 4/6 classes you will not be able to bring in a carrier currently the only way to kill them is void bombs and waiting out their near endless cap pool since they carry DSTs full of charges [/quote]

i'm open to discussion my hope is to bring the topic back. I feel 1 minute went way to far much like how the jump drive limitations went too far and now they have rolled those back.

1 minute is too far. It's made gameplay of triage carrier and dreads become so freaking boring and for the isk and skill investment they should be equally pilot skill intensive and fun. I think all options can be brought out to less cycle time on siege and triage to make reps/survivability stronger to my suggestion lower the refit timer to 10-20-30 seconds. I'm sure a solution is there between make these 2-5 bil assets that require a year of training fun to fly and their current f1 monkey state.
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
Just Lizard
#15 - 2017-02-10 04:32:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
but this was only something the enhanced the issue of spider tanking carriers had those been removed and nothing else change triage refitting would have been fine




You are correct, I meant to say triage and spider tanking carriers, but lost it in translation from brain to mouth.




Quote:
to be honest the mechanic is just dead. even with a 20s timer it just wont have the same frenzied game-play it used to.



THIS I disagree with you on, however. There are still plenty of old cap pilots who remember the ways of the refit, and still keep the full refit kit in our cargoholds on caps today. We'd have to adjust our game to the new cap mods, etc, because 4km3 mods why not, but we could dust off to be as sharp as we used to be with it.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2017-02-10 05:45:04 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

THIS I disagree with you on, however. There are still plenty of old cap pilots who remember the ways of the refit, and still keep the full refit kit in our cargoholds on caps today. We'd have to adjust our game to the new cap mods, etc, because 4km3 mods why not, but we could dust off to be as sharp as we used to be with it.



not with a 20s timer


we would be like old men who decided we could still bar fight like we used to.


try remembering how often combat refitting was truly important and more importantly satisfying that you would not be dead if it took you 20s to adjust your fit

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
D'Om K'vash
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#17 - 2017-02-10 06:53:38 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:

THIS I disagree with you on, however. There are still plenty of old cap pilots who remember the ways of the refit, and still keep the full refit kit in our cargoholds on caps today. We'd have to adjust our game to the new cap mods, etc, because 4km3 mods why not, but we could dust off to be as sharp as we used to be with it.



not with a 20s timer


we would be like old men who decided we could still bar fight like we used to.


try remembering how often combat refitting was truly important and more importantly satisfying that you would not be dead if it took you 20s to adjust your fit


every cap fight if I could refit in 20 seconds I would be able to refit. null sec in massive fights it doesn't matter everyone is just getting titans anyway but in wormhole and low sec almost every cap fight I could of refit with the 20s timer. also if you have emergency hull that just happens to be how long it lasts. At least 20 seconds gives the pilot a shot but that's why I say 10 seconds because 10 seconds in a cap fight can be a long time but start it at 20 and work down from there.
Siginek
Newbie Friendly Industries
CeskoSlovenska Aliance
#18 - 2017-02-10 11:26:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
refit was fine under the old mechanics and was one of the most fun and skill based things in EvE however CCP decided it would be best to add new toys to capitals at the cost of removing this gameplay


*new broken toys
Ncc 1709
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#19 - 2017-02-10 11:59:15 UTC
you can refit in siege... just stop firing for 1 min...
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2017-02-10 12:36:25 UTC
Siginek wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
refit was fine under the old mechanics and was one of the most fun and skill based things in EvE however CCP decided it would be best to add new toys to capitals at the cost of removing this gameplay


*new broken toys



what do you mean those cap boosters are totally balanced

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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