These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

First post
Author
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#601 - 2017-02-23 19:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Both psychology and psychiatry are fields of science. Psychiatry specifically is a field within medicine, while psychology is a field of its own. A psychiatrist mainly is there to find ways to treat mental disorders, whereas a psychologist aims to get a much wider understanding of the human psyche, both healthy and ill. A Psychiatrist will typically either work in R&D or as a medical doctor, because that's what his field of study is: Medicine.

The psychologist can of course help you with mental issues as well, not only disorders but also perfectly normal human problems as well. Not everyone who is depressed is also mentally ill after all. So he may also work as a psychotherapist or a counselor. Or he may work in marketing or advertisement, because he understands how people think and which buttons one needs to push to make you want to buy something.

Psychology and psychiatry are just different fields, but both perfectly valid sciences. Psychological warfare for example is a thing, and a thing that has been proven to be effective. Psychiatric warfare is not a thing, and I'd rather opt to not think about what it would be if it was.
Amojin
Doomheim
#602 - 2017-02-23 20:01:03 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Amojin wrote:
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, then, but I was under the impression that applied psychology was known as psychiatry?

Even at its core, psychology is an ethereal affair, basing itself nearly entirely on a hard science, statistics. It makes 'guesses,' and then tries to see if they are right, by running experiments. Who is to say, though, that they actually have anything right?

In my opinion, well, and this is shared by a lot of Th.D's, as well, pschology fails at a root level with the assumption that man is inherently good, and only lacks education and nurturing. If he got both of those, in perfect measure, every man would be good.

Well, there have been a lot of cases where people were provided with as near perfect education and environment that man could provide him, and turned out very, very bad. Psychology rushes to excuse themselves while we sit and nod. Yup. Evil to the core. The real fact is that he abused everything he was given, and because he never had a hard time, he never learned to appreciate anything. Not being able to appreciate anything, he felt it was his absolute right to do whatever he wanted.

At the core, theology and psychology are diametrically opposed, even though we do often arrive at the same place. I try to focus on when we arrive at the same place, but no, it's not a science.


This is basically entirely incorrect in terms of both psychology in general and developmental psychology.

Now, having that out of the way, can we get back to something resembling the topic at hand for the thread instead of playing a game of "three diversions deep"?


If Jonah doesn't want to respond, we can do whatever comes next. I respect Jonah's opinion, for he has been more fair, in the past, to me than you have, Cade. You? I don't care what you want, overmuch. You follow me around like a lap-dog nipping at it's masters heel. I guess you enjoy it.
Amojin
Doomheim
#603 - 2017-02-23 20:02:09 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
Both psychology and psychiatry are fields of science. Psychiatry specifically is a field within medicine, while psychology is a field of its own. A psychiatrist mainly is there to find ways to treat mental disorders, whereas a psychologist aims to get a much wider understanding of the human psyche, both healthy and illnesses. A Psychiatrist will typically either work in R&D or as a medical doctor, because that's what his field of study is: Medicine.

The psychologist can of course help you with mental issues as well, not only disorders but also perfectly normal human problems as well. Not everyone who is depressed is also mentally ill after all. So he may also work as a psychotherapist or a counselor. Or he may work in marketing or advertisement, because he understands how people think and which buttons one needs to push to make you want to buy something.

Psychology and psychiatry are just different fields, but both perfectly valid sciences. Psychological warfare for example is a thing, and a thing that has been proven to be effective. Psychiatric warfare is not a thing, and I'd rather opt to not think about what it would be if it was.


Psychology does not meet the definitions of a science. Nothing in it can be directly measured. It uses a hard science to validate itself, to be sure, but in and of itself is not a science.

In all honesty, it's a religion.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#604 - 2017-02-23 20:09:56 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Psychology does not meet the definitions of a science. Nothing in it can be directly measured. It uses a hard science to validate itself, to be sure, but in and of itself is not a science.

In all honesty, it's a religion.

So, whenever you cannot use a tape measure it's not a science? How does scientific work play out? Typically you have a hypothesis. You think about how your hypothesis could be proven or disproven and put it in a neat format, and you get a theory. Once you have this theory, you can go ahead and try to prove or disprove it by running experiments. This is how it works for all proper sciences.

In psychology, this would typically involve many studies with many test subjects. You will almost never get a 100% accurate result with an experiment like this, and if you do, your study was probably rigged. Which is why you need to run many, and other people independent from yourself should test it as well. And once you have run enough studies to have a proper result, you can judge whether your initial hypothesis was correct or not.

In psychiatry, this would typically involve many studies with many test subjects. You will almost never get a 100% accurate result with an experiment like this, and if you do, your study was probably rigged. Which is why you need to run many, and other people independent from yourself should test it as well. And once you have run enough studies to have a proper result, you can judge whether your initial hypothesis was correct or not.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#605 - 2017-02-23 20:11:55 UTC
To try and steer it back on track....

1. Yes, there is a thing in the psychological literature indicating sociopathy has a spectrum.
2. Yes, there are probably some players that fall on that spectrum.
3. Yes, there is a possibility that some of these players camp gates.
4. We can't tell anything about a person who camps gates in relation to 1-3.
5. Zoubidah is a troll.

Anything else? Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Amojin
Doomheim
#606 - 2017-02-23 20:14:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Neuntausend wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Psychology does not meet the definitions of a science. Nothing in it can be directly measured. It uses a hard science to validate itself, to be sure, but in and of itself is not a science.

In all honesty, it's a religion.

So, whenever you cannot use a tape measure it's not a science? How does scientific work play out? Typically you have a hypothesis. You think about how your hypothesis could be proven or disproven and put it in a neat format, and you get a theory. Once you have this theory, you can go ahead and try to prove or disprove it by running experiments. This is how it works for all proper sciences.

In psychology, this would typically involve many studies with many test subjects. You will almost never get a 100% accurate result with an experiment like this, and if you do, your study was probably rigged. Which is why you need to run many, and other people independent from yourself should test it as well. And once you have run enough studies to have a proper result, you can judge whether your initial hypothesis was correct or not.

In psychiatry, this would typically involve many studies with many test subjects. You will almost never get a 100% accurate result with an experiment like this, and if you do, your study was probably rigged. Which is why you need to run many, and other people independent from yourself should test it as well. And once you have run enough studies to have a proper result, you can judge whether your initial hypothesis was correct or not.


That's correct. A hard science is when something can be measured. Pseudo-sciences use the hard sciences to validate themselves, and some do so, very admirably. The bottom line is that psychology REFUSES to abandon it's root assumption, that puts it directly at odds with established fact, statistically. They say 'man is inherently good. We could fix everything if and only if,' and then postulate all sorts of stuff, ad infinitum.

They REFUSE to consider that man may be, as we theologians have said since recorded time began, that man is inherently evil.

That they refuse to alter their position, makes them just like us. A religion. Despite any fact, they buck and they cry, they weave and they dissemble. They even flat out lie when they can get away with it. It's called secular humanism and psychologists are their priests.
Cade Windstalker
#607 - 2017-02-23 20:18:40 UTC
You forgot his high minded opinion of himself and the immediate assumption that a comment in response to one of his posts means that I'm following him... Lol

Seriously though, this started as something at least vaguely related to gate camps, and seems to have veered off into a discussion on whether or not Psychology is scientific in nature or magic pixie dust. Spoiler alert from someone who's actually taken Psych courses, it's a science and scientific techniques have drastically improved the quality of patient care and diagnosis over the last 50 years.

Currently taking bets on how long it takes this to get locked if we don't get back on topic... Roll
Amojin
Doomheim
#608 - 2017-02-23 20:20:47 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You forgot his high minded opinion of himself and the immediate assumption that a comment in response to one of his posts means that I'm following him... Lol

Seriously though, this started as something at least vaguely related to gate camps, and seems to have veered off into a discussion on whether or not Psychology is scientific in nature or magic pixie dust. Spoiler alert from someone who's actually taken Psych courses, it's a science and scientific techniques have drastically improved the quality of patient care and diagnosis over the last 50 years.

Currently taking bets on how long it takes this to get locked if we don't get back on topic... Roll


This veered off a long time ago, Cade, when the woman thought she could take generic evil, of which there is plenty, and ascribe it to some game player.

That was many pages ago. You guys went on and on with it, so I just complied with what seemed to be the going trend.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#609 - 2017-02-23 20:20:53 UTC
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#610 - 2017-02-23 20:21:56 UTC
And regarding the OP:

He tried, twice, to go to the most dangerous LS system. In a T1 frig, while still relatively new.

And to put this in perspective, Tama is not only the most dangerous LS system at this moment, based on dotlan, it would bump the 5th most dangerous NS system off the list if we compiled a list based on LS and NS.

It is a bad place if you are NOT looking for a fight.

Coming and posting a rage quit post is also not only against the rules for this forum (GD), it is in poor taste.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Amojin
Doomheim
#611 - 2017-02-23 20:24:08 UTC
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?
Salvos Rhoska
#612 - 2017-02-23 20:28:41 UTC
"Opportunity makes a thief"

EVE provides opportunity for a great deal of things.
Cade Windstalker
#613 - 2017-02-23 20:30:18 UTC
Amojin wrote:
This veered off a long time ago, Cade, when the woman thought she could take generic evil, of which there is plenty, and ascribe it to some game player.

That was many pages ago. You guys went on and on with it, so I just complied with what seemed to be the going trend.


Nope, it veered off two pages or 45 minutes ago from time of this post, and there were still posts pertaining to Eve mixed in with the digression into player disposition and sociopathy. Nothing you've said has more than briefly mentioned the game, gates, or gate camping, you've been talking about your uninformed opinions on Psychology and basically nothing else. You certainly weren't the first to bring it up, but you were one of the first and you're still derailing the thread.

Something something people, bridges, and following them off...

Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Can confirm, have taken psych courses, there were zero mentions of "good" or "evil" or anything of the sort. Psych mostly speaks in terms of normal vs disordered and with the very rare exception of people who are a danger to themselves or others you need to feel that your behavior is adversely affecting your life to be diagnosed with anything or even be considered disordered.
Neuntausend
Rens Nursing Home
#614 - 2017-02-23 20:33:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Amojin wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?

I wonder where you are getting this nonsense from. You could also claim that thermodynamics are not a proper science because they use terms like "cozy" and say that humans are inherently "cold". It would be just as false as your understanding of psychology.

You simply do not know what psychology is. Maybe you've run into a charlatan who thought himself a psychologist, or read a couple too many conspiracy theories that claim to be founded on psychology, but psychology really doesn't work like you think it does.
Cade Windstalker
#615 - 2017-02-23 20:35:25 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?


Full text search of the DSM V says... no.

3 occurrences of the word "virtue" all in the context of "by virtue of"

0 occurences of the word "virtuous"

5 occurrences of the word "evil", three in the context of how a patient feels about themselves and two under 'cultural considerations' related to the concept of "The Evil Eye".

45 occurrences of the word "good", all in the context of well and none in the context of any sort of moral judgement or evaluation.
Amojin
Doomheim
#616 - 2017-02-23 20:36:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Neuntausend wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?

I wonder where you are getting this nonsense from. You could also claim that thermodynamics are not a proper science because they use terms like "cozy" and say that humans are inherently "cold". It would be just as false as your understanding of psychology.

You simply do not know what psychology is. Maybe you've run into a charlatan who thought himself a psychologist, or read a couple too many conspiracy theories that clame to be founded on psychology, but psychology really doesn't work like you think it does.


I understand that you believe that, and no, I don't disregard the first and second LAWS of thermodynamics. They are a hard science FACT. I like those. I also don't believe that anyone has the Grand Unifying Theory at hand, either.

Have you ever listened to some of these psych profs? Holy crap! They truly think they are the masters of the universe, that mankind's deepest longings are theirs to manipulate and drug. Barely understanding the brain, they go on and on about the most basic biochemistry and how we can prescribe this and that, and block neurotransmitters, etc, etc, etc.

They're terrifying! To a lot of these folks, they see you, YOU, a human being, as a lab rat to understanding better, all humanity.
Amojin
Doomheim
#617 - 2017-02-23 20:38:08 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?


Full text search of the DSM V says... no.

3 occurrences of the word "virtue" all in the context of "by virtue of"

0 occurences of the word "virtuous"

5 occurrences of the word "evil", three in the context of how a patient feels about themselves and two under 'cultural considerations' related to the concept of "The Evil Eye".

45 occurrences of the word "good", all in the context of well and none in the context of any sort of moral judgement or evaluation.


Do a whole search of how many words were in the DSM-IV. How many more new 'diagnoses' can be made in the DSM-V?

Also, how does something get into the manual? A bunch of priests of secular humanism get together and vote. Sounds familiar...
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#618 - 2017-02-23 20:41:12 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Cade Windstalker wrote:
You forgot his high minded opinion of himself and the immediate assumption that a comment in response to one of his posts means that I'm following him... Lol

Seriously though, this started as something at least vaguely related to gate camps, and seems to have veered off into a discussion on whether or not Psychology is scientific in nature or magic pixie dust. Spoiler alert from someone who's actually taken Psych courses, it's a science and scientific techniques have drastically improved the quality of patient care and diagnosis over the last 50 years.

Currently taking bets on how long it takes this to get locked if we don't get back on topic... Roll


This veered off a long time ago, Cade, when the woman thought she could take generic evil, of which there is plenty, and ascribe it to some game player.

That was many pages ago. You guys went on and on with it, so I just complied with what seemed to be the going trend.


No, you took off topic into a discussion that is not totally unrelated to EVE.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#619 - 2017-02-23 20:42:43 UTC
Cade Windstalker wrote:
Amojin wrote:
Neuntausend wrote:
"good" and "evil" are not terms used in psychology, or any science for that matter. If someone makes claims that man is inherently good or evil, and calls himself a psychologist, then he is a charlatan.


Yeah, they like the word virtuous, and many other synonyms. They are really good at dissembling, but let's call a spade a fricking shovel, at the end of the day, ok?


Full text search of the DSM V says... no.

3 occurrences of the word "virtue" all in the context of "by virtue of"

0 occurences of the word "virtuous"

5 occurrences of the word "evil", three in the context of how a patient feels about themselves and two under 'cultural considerations' related to the concept of "The Evil Eye".

45 occurrences of the word "good", all in the context of well and none in the context of any sort of moral judgement or evaluation.


Ahhhhh Cade, he is sucking you into the off topic discussion.... P

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Salvos Rhoska
#620 - 2017-02-23 20:51:38 UTC
There are almost certainly some sociopaths in EVE, people with personality disorders of all types, or any number of other psychiatric conditions.

But so what. This is a sandbox and a game, and not only for the perfectly sound.

The worst they can do, is blow up or steal your space pixels, or taunt/insult you.
Which is also what everyone else can do.