These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#581 - 2017-02-23 17:07:30 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world, of which the forums are an extension. As such you shouldn't be labelling others as sociopaths based solely on your interactions with them here; many of the people you tar with that brush are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy, their actions and persona in a fantasy environment, IE a role playing game such as Eve, being very different from those in the real world.

Environment and context matter.


Not only that, but if they are a medical professional, and in particular in the mental health field, such posts would be a gross ethical violation. Diagnosing people from afar has been considered unethical for decades. Doing so through the filter of an online video game would be about as bad as it can get in terms of that kind of thing, IMO.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#582 - 2017-02-23 17:13:13 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world


No need to be a psychologist to understand that -as I've explained, but you didn't get it- the people described don't play a game as an end in itself, but game the game to extort RL emotional distress from RL people

They're not roleplaying a pod pilot, they're enacting their impotent RL fantasies through an online multiplayer game : /


So social norms and morals can definitely be brought up, as what motivates griefers (in b4 "lel CCP frobids griefnig") is their RL issues: taking joy in witnessing other people in RL distress.


The game is only a means to harvest RL reactions from RL people. That's very hard to understand, yet all the people who tried EvE and say the community is a toxic cesspool understood it after a few ingame encounters with people like you or the people you enable :^)

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#583 - 2017-02-23 17:20:32 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world, of which the forums are an extension. As such you shouldn't be labelling others as sociopaths based solely on your interactions with them here; many of the people you tar with that brush are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy.

Environment and context matter.


Her description may not be a clinical discussion of sociopathy, but it hits all the high points. And in MMO's, sociopathy is rampantly in evidence, yes. All it requires is that you don't care, at all, about other people's emotions because you actually can't empathize, as a person. Your personality, to avoid fancy technical terms like id and ego, is supposedly still in infancy, where you only are aware of your own perception regarding your needs and comfort. That's the psycho-babble theory, of course. In theology, we have it much easier. You were created bad, from the womb, and you've willfully chosen to not work on changing that. However you dice it, yeah, people online act like this all of the time.


Welcome to real life. Most people do not care about other people's feelings. You interact and buy stuff from people all over the world without a seconds thought about them. This notion that we should stop and care about people's feelings for whom we don't even know would not work....mainly because most of them are totally anonymous.

And frankly you are again, talking out of your ass. Yes, yes, I know you ran a Star Trek MUSH or MUD or whatever. BTW, as an aside, you and your Star Trek imagery is leading me to begin to hate Star Trek. But LS pirates are usually located on the trade lanes that run between trade hubs and have LS systems, though not always. For example, the Rancer pirates I was hanging out with camped Rancer because people who wanted a short route from Hek to Jita would come through Rancer. They collected ALOT of loot. I mean ALOT. And some of that loot they are still using to make ISK today. Did they shoot anything coming through the gates (if they could)? Absolutely.

So here they are camping a gate, shooting people and collecting the loot. In a competitive game that is completely reasonable. The unreasonable ones are you, Hakawai, and Zoubidah who deem reasonable play as unreasonable. Was the guy who dropped 3 carrier BPOs, and BPOs for all the components upset? I bet he was, but guess what...he was imprudent. His laziness took him through Rancer...where he died and dropped all that good stuff. If he had taken the longer safer route, he'd be fine.

Nobody involved is a "sociopath" either clinically or you in your batshit crazy definition. Saying, I want to be pirate in a game where that is an actual thing you can do...does not make one an *******, which is what you are describing.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Amojin
Doomheim
#584 - 2017-02-23 17:29:27 UTC
Actually, Teckos, you brought up a lot of personal angst issues in your post, to me, and let them color what would, I assume, have otherwise been a rational response.

I didn't say anything about Star Trek in this thread. You carried that over, and then admitted to actually projecting hate onto another thing, in this case, a television show, because you don't like me. None of that was remotely relevant to what I said, and in fact I didn't say what you claim I said. I simply pointed out that the behavior is, in fact, rampant, here.

To draw a parallel, this game's economy has actually been studied in real life universities and used in real life economics, since it provides a fairly large sample size, and the economic systems rival the complexity of the real world. This place is a sandbox in more than one way.

So, all I basically said is that she's right. Some people are sociopathic, and they will likely show up in the same percentages as in real life. Now, you defended the best possible case, where it's for an in game reason. Clearly I can't debate that, nor would I attempt to. To say that everyone on this game plays for those goals, however, would be foolish.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#585 - 2017-02-23 17:29:59 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world


No need to be a psychologist to understand that -as I've explained, but you didn't get it- the people described don't play a game as an end in itself, but game the game to extort RL emotional distress from RL people

They're not roleplaying a pod pilot, they're enacting their impotent RL fantasies through an online multiplayer game : /


So social norms and morals can definitely be brought up, as what motivates griefers (in b4 "lel CCP frobids griefnig") is their RL issues: taking joy in witnessing other people in RL distress.


The game is only a means to harvest RL reactions from RL people. That's very hard to understand, yet all the people who tried EvE and say the community is a toxic cesspool understood it after a few ingame encounters with people like you or the people you enable :^)


Look everyone Zoubidah is a mind reader. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#586 - 2017-02-23 17:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Amojin wrote:
Her description may not be a clinical discussion of sociopathy, but it hits all the high points. And in MMO's, sociopathy is rampantly in evidence, yes. All it requires is that you don't care, at all, about other people's emotions because you actually can't empathize, as a person. Your personality, to avoid fancy technical terms like id and ego, is supposedly still in infancy, where you only are aware of your own perception regarding your needs and comfort. That's the psycho-babble theory, of course. In theology, we have it much easier. You were created bad, from the womb, and you've willfully chosen to not work on changing that. However you dice it, yeah, people online act like this all of the time.
You assume too much, and appeared to have missed the bit in the definition of sociopath that refers to abnormal moral conduct and an inability to conform with the norms of society.

The norms of one culture or society may not be the same as those of another, this is amply demonstrated in the real world. Eve culture is distinct from those present in the real world, here your real world societal norms and morals are not the norm. Reality vs fantasy, know the difference.

The vast majority of us (if I may be so bold as to speak for others) are perfectly capable of empathising with others, however Eve is a virtual world where we come to escape from the humdrum of everyday life, it is fantasy.

Much like many other forms of entertainment Eve, and the forums, often involve "actors" playing a role, our actions while playing that role are rarely a reflection of our actions outside of the realm of said entertainment.

As I previously stated Environment and Context are important factors to consider before tarring people with the brush of abnormal behaviour.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#587 - 2017-02-23 17:42:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Teckos Pech wrote:

So here they are camping a gate, shooting people and collecting the loot. In a competitive game that is completely reasonable. The unreasonable ones are you, Hakawai, and Zoubidah who deem reasonable play as unreasonable. Was the guy who dropped 3 carrier BPOs, and BPOs for all the components upset? I bet he was, but guess what...he was imprudent. His laziness took him through Rancer...where he died and dropped all that good stuff. If he had taken the longer safer route, he'd be fine.


They make a lot of isk because they exploit the tacit trust most gamers have when they play an online game: that other people are here to play with or against you to have fun together ingame for ingame means, and are not after some immersion-breaking cheesy minmaxing of clunky mechanics in a plainly RL-based grief-loving zero sum game where fun vampires ruin people's stuff ingame to revel in their RL reactions.

Awoxing, reverse safari, exploiting people's willingness to help, etc... all taking advantage of the tacit trust between players


Teckos Pech wrote:


Welcome to real life. Most people do not care about other people's feelings. You interact and buy stuff from people all over the world without a seconds thought about them. This notion that we should stop and care about people's feelings for whom we don't even know would not work....mainly because most of them are totally anonymous.


I wonder what a psychologist would say about that

Sounds like sociopathy to me but hey I'm not a professional!

Don't worry tho this game is a support group for people like you ^^

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#588 - 2017-02-23 17:43:22 UTC
Amojin wrote:
Actually, Teckos, you brought up a lot of personal angst issues in your post, to me, and let them color what would, I assume, have otherwise been a rational response.

I didn't say anything about Star Trek in this thread. You carried that over, and then admitted to actually projecting hate onto another thing, in this case, a television show, because you don't like me. None of that was remotely relevant to what I said, and in fact I didn't say what you claim I said. I simply pointed out that the behavior is, in fact, rampant, here.

To draw a parallel, this game's economy has actually been studied in real life universities and used in real life economics, since it provides a fairly large sample size, and the economic systems rival the complexity of the real world. This place is a sandbox in more than one way.

So, all I basically said is that she's right. Some people are sociopathic, and they will likely show up in the same percentages as in real life. Now, you defended the best possible case, where it's for an in game reason. Clearly I can't debate that, nor would I attempt to. To say that everyone on this game plays for those goals, however, would be foolish.


Yes, to some extent. I find it frustating when a douche bag comes along and tries to divine ill-intent from actions in a game like EVE. EVE is NOT like other games where camping a spawn point is considered bad form. In EVE it is considered the norm. So when players do it, trying divine ill intent from what is considered normal behavior, that makes you that douche bag.

That is what many of us were trying to tell you in your thread that got locked. Your Star Trek game was not one of emergence and spontaneous order. There is no central authority guiding in game events in EVE, whereas in the game you ran there was. So all your analogies fell flat because it was comparing an apple to beaver. They are not comparable.

So if you look at guys camping a gate (a spawn point) and say, "Oh those people are acting out RL issues of impotence," that is likely crap because that is the norm...unlike other games. There are a number of reasons why one might do it that have nothing to do with the people being a--holes.

Now, might some people want to do it "just for the tears"? Maybe. But claiming that is the attitude of all gate campers makes you the douche bag in the conversation here.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#589 - 2017-02-23 17:46:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world


No need to be a psychologist to understand that -as I've explained, but you didn't get it- the people described don't play a game as an end in itself, but game the game to extort RL emotional distress from RL people

They're not roleplaying a pod pilot, they're enacting their impotent RL fantasies through an online multiplayer game : /


So social norms and morals can definitely be brought up, as what motivates griefers (in b4 "lel CCP frobids griefnig") is their RL issues: taking joy in witnessing other people in RL distress.


The game is only a means to harvest RL reactions from RL people. That's very hard to understand, yet all the people who tried EvE and say the community is a toxic cesspool understood it after a few ingame encounters with people like you or the people you enable :^)
While you're entitled to your opinion, it doesn't make you right.

My opinion is that what you just posted is a result of your apparent inability to take into account the norms of the environment that you have chosen to immerse yourself in. In short I think that you're wrong about the motivations of other players.

edit, gif in wrong part of post

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#590 - 2017-02-23 17:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:



Teckos Pech wrote:


Welcome to real life. Most people do not care about other people's feelings. You interact and buy stuff from people all over the world without a seconds thought about them. This notion that we should stop and care about people's feelings for whom we don't even know would not work....mainly because most of them are totally anonymous.


I wonder what a psychologist would say about that

Sounds like sociopathy to me but hey I'm not a professional!

Don't worry tho this game is a support group for people like you ^^


Really?

Do you know anyone at the company providing you internet service? Do you sit there concerned for any of the? How about the people who made your clothes? Do you even know which country they were made in? How about your computer's CPU. How many people involved in that production process. Know any of them? Do you give even a seconds thought to them? How about the food in your home? Do you have a car? Where were all the parts made, do you know? How many from say, Mexico if any? How about the RAM in your computer?

I'm going to guess the answers are all, "No."

Guess you too are a sociopath.

We live in a world of anonymous exchange. You buy and consume stuff from people you never met and likely never will meet. And you never ever think about them, yet they are providing you with all sorts of stuff you not only value, but need to live.

[sarcasm]You are a downright despicable sociopath. [/sarcasm]

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#591 - 2017-02-23 17:51:41 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

So here they are camping a gate, shooting people and collecting the loot. In a competitive game that is completely reasonable. The unreasonable ones are you, Hakawai, and Zoubidah who deem reasonable play as unreasonable. Was the guy who dropped 3 carrier BPOs, and BPOs for all the components upset? I bet he was, but guess what...he was imprudent. His laziness took him through Rancer...where he died and dropped all that good stuff. If he had taken the longer safer route, he'd be fine.


They make a lot of isk because they exploit the tacit trust most gamers have when they play an online game: that other people are here to play with or against you to have fun together ingame for ingame means, and are not after some immersion-breaking cheesy minmaxing of clunky mechanics in a plainly RL-based grief-loving zero sum game where fun vampires ruin people's stuff ingame to revel in their RL reactions.

Awoxing, reverse safari, exploiting people's willingness to help, etc... all taking advantage of the tacit trust between players


Bullshit, now you are a liar.

A guy carrying carrier BPOs and BPOs for the components was not some fresh faced noob who foolishly closed the warning pop-up but a long time player who knows the nature of the game...or the world's biggest idiot.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Amojin
Doomheim
#592 - 2017-02-23 17:53:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Teckos Pech wrote:
But claiming that is the attitude of all gate campers makes you the douche bag in the conversation here.


I wasn't aware that I claimed that, 'douche' though I may be, in your regard... Again, I simply said, yes, it is very likely that sociopaths are playing this game, and they are not 'playing the game,' as you described in your best case scenario.

A lot of studies, though, show that sociopaths are very highly ranked, usually, in companies and organizations. There's a lot of psycho-babble discussion of why that may be, and I take it all with a grain of salt, as I do with any actual not hard science, but a pseudo-science.

Statistically, however, it appears that sociopaths are common, and getting more so, not less. It's almost, if you plot the incidence, identical with the exponential rise of technology plotted against time. Psychology is curious about this, and they have a lot of theories. Again, we have it easer. There was foretold a rise in knowledge, or technology, in these days, and the corresponding moral lapses, of which there are a long list, more than encompassing sociopathy, are all happening, right on schedule. So, no, I'm not surprised that people are going to look at callousness, hate, excessive pride, and be concerned.

Oops, I forgot the star trek reference. Would you like one?
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#593 - 2017-02-23 18:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Amojin wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
But claiming that is the attitude of all gate campers makes you the douche bag in the conversation here.


I wasn't aware that I claimed that, 'douche' though I may be, in your regard... Again, I simply said, yes, it is very likely that sociopaths are playing this game, and they are not 'playing the game,' as you described in your best case scenario.

A lot of studies, though, show that sociopaths are very highly ranked, usually, in companies and organizations. There's a lot of psycho-babble discussion of why that may be, and I take it all with a grain of salt, as I do with any actual not hard science, but a pseudo-science.

Statistically, however, it appears that sociopaths are common, and getting more so, not less. It's almost, if you plot the incidence, identical with the exponential rise of technology plotted against time. Psychology is curious about this, and they have a lot of theories. Again, we have it easer. There was foretold a rise in knowledge, or technology, in these days, and the corresponding moral lapses, of which there are a long list, more than encompassing sociopathy, are all happening, right on schedule. So, no, I'm not surprised that people are going to look at callousness, hate, excessive pride, and be concerned.

Oops, I forgot the star trek reference. Would you like one?


Dude..WITF?

You said "She was right." She was not saing, "Statistically speaking some subset of gate campers are somewhere on the sociopath spectrum." Which while true, it probably also true of those who don't camp gates.

Are some Eve players somewhere on the sociopath spectrum? Probably, I've read some of those articles myself. Heck one article was about one researcher who was shocked to find he himself fell on the spectrum.

And yeah, maybe those sociopath spectrum players are disproportionately found in gate campers. Problem is you can't go in reverse, you can't go backwards and say, most of those gate campers are thus on the sociopath spectrum.

It is stupid logic that suggests one has failed rudimentary statistics and logic. Let me give you example:

Suppose 10% of the population has trait this sociopathy spectrum issue. Now, we have a subset of the population that camps gates. Suppose that it is 5,000 players. And further suppose that the people with sociopathy spectrum traits are twice as like to camp gates as engage in other activities in game. How many of our 5,000 gate campers have sociopathy spectrum traits? About 20%. The other 80% don't.

Now, if you still think Zoubidah is "right" you are a douche bag. Because 80% are not people with sociopathy spectrum traits. And in fact, the activities of that 20% who do have sociopathic spectrum traits might look very much like the activities of the other 80% of gate campers. They are doing not only for the loot, but because it tickles their sociopathic traits.

So again, you cannot look actions and then divine intent...or at least it is very muddy water.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#594 - 2017-02-23 18:17:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Amojin wrote:
... Again, I simply said, yes, it is very likely that sociopaths are playing this game, and they are not 'playing the game,' as you described in your best case scenario.
That's a given, you'll find them in every walk of life, but they aren't the majority.

Quote:
A lot of studies, though, show that sociopaths are very highly ranked, usually, in companies and organizations. There's a lot of psycho-babble discussion of why that may be, and I take it all with a grain of salt, as I do with any actual not hard science, but a pseudo-science.
Considering the rulebreaking content of some of your recent posts I hardly think that you're in a position to call something pseudo-anything.

Quote:
Statistically, however, it appears that sociopaths are common, and getting more so, not less. It's almost, if you plot the incidence, identical with the exponential rise of technology plotted against time. Psychology is curious about this, and they have a lot of theories.
Those statistics may well be skewed by the expansion of what is considered to be a disorder, many of the various disorders that people are diagnosed with these days used to be known as being an arse/kid/teenager/knob.

Quote:
Again, we have it easer. There was foretold a rise in knowledge, or technology, in these days, and the corresponding moral lapses, of which there are a long list, more than encompassing sociopathy, are all happening, right on schedule.
I think I know where you're going with this, having probably read the texts you refer to. If I was you I'd go no further lest you break the rules, again.

Quote:
So, no, I'm not surprised that people are going to look at callousness, hate, excessive pride, and be concerned.
When taken in a real world context then yes there may well be grounds for concern, but we're talking about a virtual world, one with very different norms and moral values.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Amojin
Doomheim
#595 - 2017-02-23 18:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
She is 'right' at the point I delineated, in my opinion. She said stuff after that. You'll notice I didn't defend those. We can say that yes, a certain percentage of the playerbase are sociopaths. But we CANNOT isolate an individual, and say, He's one of them!

His actions, in game, making isk from piracy, is, behaviorally indistinquishable from a sociopath. All that differentiates these two is their underlying motive. And, as humans, we cannot, and have no right to 'divine' that, or make the attempt. Now if he opens his mouth and flat out admits it, bragging and such, then that's different. He outed himself, yes?

I defended her claim that a lot of them are sociopathic. I think a lot of the players that play the markets are, actually, but that's neither here nor there.

You can't use a general idea and move to a specific, in the context of a game, no. In that you are 100% correct.
Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#596 - 2017-02-23 18:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
What you just ran headlong into, Teckos, isnt a wall (even if it seems like it), it's the natural human tendency to believe that people they don't like are "evil" (thus making them feel better about themselves because they can think of themselves as the "good guy"). They NEED that, because to think that someone would choose to play a video game different from them is just too much to handle.

It's stupid as hell, but lots of things about humans are that way too lol.

The irony of it all is that the people who think "others" (gankers, gate campers, scammers, whatever) are bad people are also the people who tend to be victimized by the same, whereas those of us who don't think so (or just don't care, why would I give a damn about what some other nerd is doing on his computer?) tend to take precautions and be safe from whatever it is they could do to us...
Amojin
Doomheim
#597 - 2017-02-23 19:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Considering the rulebreaking content of some of your recent posts I hardly think that you're in a position to call something pseudo-anything.


I fail to see how my 'rule breaking' has anything to do with the comparative value I place on the hard sciences contrasted to the pseudo-sciences... I'm also pretty forgiving about rules being broken, when it comes to insulting me. I've only used the prior rule-breaking as an excuse to break others, myself. It's a contrivance, of course, but not an unreasonable one.

If someone can make sexually explicit comments to me or about me, and everyone is fine with it, why, then I figure I have an excuse to return the favor. I'm also not as much a 'douche' as Teckos claims, and while my ideas are not always contemporary, and I tend to switch topics and ramble on, that's just how I am. I was pretty forgiving, in most instances, wouldn't you say? The only one I've really hit all that hard is Cade, and I don't even actually resort to insults, then.

Besides, isn't CCP creating new forums, where they said these rules would be somewhat more lax? That kinda indicates that they are a bit tired of playing PC-Cop.

Have I, honestly, said anything that, in the real world, you'd be compelled to hit me in the face for?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#598 - 2017-02-23 19:34:12 UTC
Psychology in itself isn't a pseudo-science, because it utilises the scientific method for devising treatments and measuring results, however some of the practices that claim to fall under the umbrella of psychology are pseudo-science because they're based on theory that can't be tested or falsified.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Amojin
Doomheim
#599 - 2017-02-23 19:44:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Amojin
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Psychology in itself isn't a pseudo-science, because it utilises the scientific method for devising treatments and measuring results, however some of the practices that claim to fall under the umbrella of psychology are pseudo-science because they're based on theory that can't be tested or falsified.


You'll have to forgive my ignorance, then, but I was under the impression that applied psychology was known as psychiatry?

Even at its core, psychology is an ethereal affair, basing itself nearly entirely on a hard science, statistics. It makes 'guesses,' and then tries to see if they are right, by running experiments. Who is to say, though, that they actually have anything right?

In my opinion, well, and this is shared by a lot of Th.D's, as well, pschology fails at a root level with the assumption that man is inherently good, and only lacks education and nurturing. If he got both of those, in perfect measure, every man would be good.

Well, there have been a lot of cases where people were provided with as near perfect education and environment that man could provide him, and turned out very, very bad. Psychology rushes to excuse themselves while we sit and nod. Yup. Evil to the core. The real fact is that he abused everything he was given, and because he never had a hard time, he never learned to appreciate anything. Not being able to appreciate anything, he felt it was his absolute right to do whatever he wanted.

At the core, theology and psychology are diametrically opposed, even though we do often arrive at the same place. I try to focus on when we arrive at the same place, but no, it's not a science.
Cade Windstalker
#600 - 2017-02-23 19:57:54 UTC
Amojin wrote:
You'll have to forgive my ignorance, then, but I was under the impression that applied psychology was known as psychiatry?

Even at its core, psychology is an ethereal affair, basing itself nearly entirely on a hard science, statistics. It makes 'guesses,' and then tries to see if they are right, by running experiments. Who is to say, though, that they actually have anything right?

In my opinion, well, and this is shared by a lot of Th.D's, as well, pschology fails at a root level with the assumption that man is inherently good, and only lacks education and nurturing. If he got both of those, in perfect measure, every man would be good.

Well, there have been a lot of cases where people were provided with as near perfect education and environment that man could provide him, and turned out very, very bad. Psychology rushes to excuse themselves while we sit and nod. Yup. Evil to the core. The real fact is that he abused everything he was given, and because he never had a hard time, he never learned to appreciate anything. Not being able to appreciate anything, he felt it was his absolute right to do whatever he wanted.

At the core, theology and psychology are diametrically opposed, even though we do often arrive at the same place. I try to focus on when we arrive at the same place, but no, it's not a science.


This is basically entirely incorrect in terms of both psychology in general and developmental psychology.

Now, having that out of the way, can we get back to something resembling the topic at hand for the thread instead of playing a game of "three diversions deep"?