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so this is there real future for new players? gate camp?

First post
Author
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#561 - 2017-02-22 06:12:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Shae Tadaruwa
Hakawai wrote:
We've been through the "warning sign" discussion twice already. If your implied advice was followed, no new(ish) (currently solo) player would ever enter lowsec. "Be careful what you wish for .... ".

Bull.

My implied advice is not what you think it is. It's simply, don't whinge if you die. Jump into lowsec and have fun.

New players, old players, returning players, etc. often jump into lowsec.

The big difference between most and the weak minded individuals like the OP is that they read that warning, accept it and take responsibility for any consequences that occur.

They don't come with 'think of the children' whines or stamp their feet and storm out of the game. They play and enjoy it.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Lord Harrowmont
Golden Dawn Society
#562 - 2017-02-22 06:12:59 UTC
av Utama wrote:
upgraded to Omega , was fun to learn exploration , but the future not looking good...

To lose all with no time to react to stupid camp again and again
3 second , that all , you get blown up

You can tell that it's going bad if , 1 sec after jump there is warp disrupt, only 1 sec

I don't like this "pvp" system , this is ugly and bad

Rage quit


I find it fun and it gives to the excitement of the game. You never know what's on the other side! Pirate

Many games hold a players hand, EVE please don't change.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#563 - 2017-02-22 06:21:51 UTC
Lord Harrowmont wrote:
av Utama wrote:
upgraded to Omega , was fun to learn exploration , but the future not looking good...

To lose all with no time to react to stupid camp again and again
3 second , that all , you get blown up

You can tell that it's going bad if , 1 sec after jump there is warp disrupt, only 1 sec

I don't like this "pvp" system , this is ugly and bad

Rage quit


I find it fun and it gives to the excitement of the game. You never know what's on the other side! Pirate

Many games hold a players hand, EVE please don't change.


This guy gets it. What is on the other side of that gate? Fortune and glory or death and despair....that makes it exciting!

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#564 - 2017-02-22 07:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakawai
Akane Togenada wrote:
Hakawai wrote:
As for the capsuleer immortality: the thread is about player perceptions and behavior, not the game's back-story. Capsuleers may not care about time, but players do - and rookie's RL time is worth the same as that of experienced players. Game design or player actions which waste too much rookie time send a clear message: basic setup in EVE takes too much time for too little fun.

It's the thought of grinding boring activities for hours or days to get to the point where the game will be fun again that drives newbies away.

And to deal with the next "synthetic" counter argument: if cases where a player enjoys gathering resources to cover their losses, perhaps due to being part of the mythical "helpful and friendly Corp", it wouldn't be grinding - but of course the player would not be caught in a 0.5 - 0.4 gate camp either, so that case is well off-topic for the thread.

But back in real EVE, the vast majority of new players go through a longish period where their income doesn't match reasonable expenses (e.g. for skill books,m and for replacing quite cheap ships like T1/T1 cruisers), so unlike a well established player they can be caught between "don't fly what you can't afford", and "can't afford to pay for what they need to fly"..


Ok ... first I want to know what you consider "a long time for basic setup" ? Basic Exploration training as in good enough to go wormhole diving is about 2 days of training. The ship used will be exceptionally cheap and thus easy to replace several times over even for a brand new player whose only income have been the career missions. If the player manages to get salvage from one wormhole relic site back to station it's value will likely cover another 5-10 ships or so depending on which Pirate faction the site belongs to.

I'm not sure what boring activities you mean a new player have to do to get to where the game is fun, care to elaborate ?

I think you are wrong in that new players can´t constantly afford skill books early on. If we talk Omega the only skill book you might want quite early on that's expensive is Cloaking at 3,5 mil. Any other expensive skillbooks mean the new player have rushed for a bigger ship without training support skills first and that's a horrible idea regardless of career path chosen.

There is no such thing as "can´t afford to pay for what they need to fly" ... or are you talking about a mission runner that have rushed for L3-4 security missions to quick and ends up buying replacement Cruisers/Battlecruisers that chews through their wallets. In that case the mission runner should have kept doing L2 missions (there's quite a few that can be easily done in a Destroyer even with bad support skills) until having a suitable amount of ISK to be able to afford graduating to a bigger more expensive ship.

Quote:
There is no such thing as "can´t afford to pay for what they need to fly"

It's easy to get enough ISK for destroyers and basic skills. Then there's a natural gap where L2 missions, similarly difficult combat sites, and/or Venture mining don't pay enough to conform to the principle "don't fly what you can't afford to lose".

I've tested this (in an Alpha and in a new Omega). The numbers for "hours of grinding" vs "cost of a fitted ship" don't work out.

It's not an insurmountable threshold of course, but it means there are periods where the risk profile a player considers when choosing activities is a bit skewed towards the two ends of the scale. It makes sense to spend quite a lot of time grinding reliably but slowly to build up some ISK, or to spend time in throwaway T1 frigates that have a low-probability of a much higher ISK/hour payoff than the grinding option. In the second case the cost of failure (e.g. of a visit to a wormhole that leads to ship loss) is low. The middle ground (medium risk, medium income) is not attractive because it requires ships that can't be casually replaced if lost - i.e. for a small amount of grinding time, the way a T1/T1 frigate can.


Some of the other points in your post:

"Exploration" is the usual response to any comments about the income patterns faced by new players. It is a possible path, but a lot of rookies don't do it - perhaps because of the "risk polarization" I described above. And I suspect the obvious lies that are told in the help and NPC Corp channels about WH income per hour have an effect. I've seen it claimed that WH diving averages 100 mill / hour in a T1 frigate, but if someone asks if they can make a PLEX in their first month of play they an inconsistent answer. Rookies can count just as well (or badly) as old-timers :)

I don't remember all the specific skills that I found pricey. My notes mention "Security Connections", which I wanted for mission running, at 30 million or so, and that "Mining Connections" (not that useful to me) is about the same. It's a lot when you're doing L3's in an affordable ship (in my case a T1 cruiser) rather than something that can blitz them.

IIRC the issue with (early) mining is that it takes such a long time to skill up to Mining Barges + Modulated Strip Miners.
And of course there's an "opportunity cost" - if you're training for more efficient mining just to grind for ISK to pay for riskier activities, you're not training combat-relevant skills. The skill and for mining Gas Clouds are expensive though - a bit strange considering you try it out for the first time during one of the Career Agent missions.

Of course 20 to 30 million isn't much when you're nicely set up, but at the corresponding income levels from obvious new player activities like mining or missions it's a lot. When you're happy to make ten million an hour (in real hours - not "hours" made by leaving out all low/zero income time) losing a T1/T1 BC really hurts.
Yebo Lakatosh
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#565 - 2017-02-22 07:25:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Yebo Lakatosh
I always imagined mining and PvE as a start would be this tedious and costy. Thanks for confirming. I could have lived with that. My problem was that these activities don't seem to develop survival skills (not the ones that raised by SP, but the ones raised by experience and reading/chatting). While in exploration, that's the first thing to learn.

I could only blame CCP for not making it very obvious for the newcommers that picking a good activity shouldn't just be decided by looking at isk/hour. More like isk / hour times investment cost divided by the danger factor. And I prefer to also multiple that by fun-factor. Explo is anything but boring once you get deep enough.

But less competition in anything I do is good for me.

100 mil isk/hour sounds lovely but distant - if possible at all. I'm content with making 100mil / afternoon as an alpha.. when not getting popped... on the days I can get myself to go out and explore. So sometimes.

Elite F1 pilot since YC119, incarnate of honor, integrity and tidi.

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#566 - 2017-02-22 09:41:03 UTC
god is she still harping on?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#567 - 2017-02-22 10:23:02 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
god is she still harping on?

Endlessly.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#568 - 2017-02-22 10:23:08 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
god is she still harping on?
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".

Every post she makes just makes the hole she's digging deeper.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Hakawai
State War Academy
Caldari State
#569 - 2017-02-22 11:04:53 UTC
Are you three planning on joining my stalker "fan club" too?

Perhaps you should get together in-game and work out a roster so it's not too obvious that you're following me around.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#570 - 2017-02-22 11:08:23 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Are you three planning on joining my stalker "fan club" too?

Perhaps you should get together in-game and work out a roster so it's not too obvious that you're following me around.

Even in game where everyone is out to get you, it's still possible to have an unhealthy paranoia.

Why would anyone follow you? You aren't important.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."

Keno Skir
#571 - 2017-02-22 11:35:38 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Of course 20 to 30 million isn't much when you're nicely set up, but at the corresponding income levels from obvious new player activities like mining or missions it's a lot. When you're happy to make ten million an hour (in real hours - not "hours" made by leaving out all low/zero income time) losing a T1/T1 BC really hurts.


We all lost loads of t1 ships of all shapes and sizes. I remember starting out as a new player i thought trading station to station looked like pretty risk free ISK. After a few days i noticed the higher margins shipping trade good out of lowsec npc spawns and set to work moving it all out over weeks. I lost loads of ships, some completely full. Some made it through. Sometimes i did well and had ISK and sometimes i would lose some or all of that ISK. I realised quickly i was learning something from every encounter good or bad and i improved naturally. My success rate increased. Eventually i applied the same logic to wormhole space, taking over a small C1 and evicting the occupiers with my merry band of 4-5 new players all in our first few months.

Danger / risk in EvE is all about how you look at it. When faced with thousands of people who are enjoying something, suggesting it can't be fun or is broken for new players is demonstrably false. We all survived our climb to the top and thoroughly enjoyed ourselves, it's nobodies fault but your own if you can't work it all out Pirate
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#572 - 2017-02-22 11:36:09 UTC
Hakawai wrote:
Are you three planning on joining my stalker "fan club" too?

Perhaps you should get together in-game and work out a roster so it's not too obvious that you're following me around.
Awww is the poor little baby feeling persecuted?


In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#573 - 2017-02-23 13:43:24 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

Lan Wang
Knights of the Posing Meat
Snuffed Out
#574 - 2017-02-23 13:52:39 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues


whats online sociopathy? can you define it and explain why its applicable in eves game mechanics

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#575 - 2017-02-23 16:14:14 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues


I can always tell when the other person is a failure in game and probably out of life....they use this kind of language. They can't hack it, but it isn't them, it has to be everyone else is bad...somehow...cheating or near enough to get ahead while they are playing fair. "It isn't me, no I'm fine and good and right. Everyone else is is morally despicable and using unfair methods." And of course they want to bring down everyone around them because...why it is only fair. And in point of fact these people are either lazy, incompetent or both.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#576 - 2017-02-23 16:15:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Lan Wang wrote:
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues


whats online sociopathy? can you define it and explain why its applicable in eves game mechanics


Whatever Zoubidah can't do and therefore does not like. There you go nice and simple definition.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#577 - 2017-02-23 16:48:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde
Lan Wang wrote:


whats online sociopathy? can you define it and explain why its applicable in eves game mechanics


Using a game not as an end in itself (ex: play pretend being a pod pilot amassing riches) but as a means to extract "tears" and rage from random people you don't have history with. The avatar used is irrelevant, and it's a bonus if the immersion is broken.

To rephrase it: enacting online your impotent RL fantasies of domination and malevolence, by gaming a game so people who play this game to have fun, are denied this fun.

In other words: playing people, not playing with people.

To drive the point home: being too weak or fearful to cause harm to others IRL (because IRL there actually are consequences), and going out of your way to try and emotionally harm people through a multiplayer online game.


It's been going on for a decade in EvE, it's a bit strange you didn't notice it?

"You would not be the first "ganker aligned" player to be found to having some issues. Here's a dark secret: there are some in AG who, because of battling gankers, have managed to get to know a few of them, found they had issues, and helped them" HW

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#578 - 2017-02-23 16:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world, of which the forums are an extension. As such you shouldn't be labelling others as sociopaths based solely on your interactions with them here; many of the people you tar with that brush are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy, their actions and persona in a fantasy environment, IE a role playing game such as Eve, being very different from those in the real world.

Environment and context matter.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Amojin
Doomheim
#579 - 2017-02-23 17:04:14 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
At this stage we're just "playing with our food".



Consider your RL situations and wonder whether you're not playing yourselves

Considering the time and energy you put into enabling and defending online sociopathy, there are probably ongoing and troubling issues
Are you a medical professional specialising in psychology?

I think not.

If you were, you'd recognise that the social norms and morals present in real life are very different from those present in this particular virtual world, of which the forums are an extension. As such you shouldn't be labelling others as sociopaths based solely on your interactions with them here; many of the people you tar with that brush are capable of telling the difference between reality and fantasy.

Environment and context matter.


Her description may not be a clinical discussion of sociopathy, but it hits all the high points. And in MMO's, sociopathy is rampantly in evidence, yes. All it requires is that you don't care, at all, about other people's emotions because you actually can't empathize, as a person. Your personality, to avoid fancy technical terms like id and ego, is supposedly still in infancy, where you only are aware of your own perception regarding your needs and comfort. That's the psycho-babble theory, of course. In theology, we have it much easier. You were created bad, from the womb, and you've willfully chosen to not work on changing that. However you dice it, yeah, people online act like this all of the time.
Teckos Pech
Patriotic Tendencies
Goonswarm Federation
#580 - 2017-02-23 17:05:36 UTC
Zoubidah Al-Kouffarde wrote:
Lan Wang wrote:


whats online sociopathy? can you define it and explain why its applicable in eves game mechanics


Using a game not as an end in itself (ex: play pretend being a pod pilot amassing riches) but as a means to extract "tears" and rage from random people you don't have history with. The avatar used is irrelevant, and it's a bonus if the immersion is broken.

To rephrase it: enacting online your impotent RL fantasies of domination and malevolence, by gaming a game so people who play this game to have fun, are denied this fun.

In other words: playing people, not playing with people.

To drive the point home: being too weak or fearful to cause harm to others IRL (because IRL there actually are consequences), and going out of your way to try and emotionally harm people through a multiplayer online game.


It's been going on for a decade in EvE, it's a bit strange you didn't notice it?


Instead of telling the rest of us that we have some psychological issues (BTW, diagnosing people via an internet game is highly unethical if you are indeed a mental health official in the U.S.), perhaps you should consider seeking help about your issues of impotence in life.

If anyone is emotionally harmed by a video game, and being serious and not making a joke, they should probably go seek some professional help. As I noted earlier, losing my nearly 8 billion JF was mildly upsetting--i.e. a few hours later after I bought another one and started working on a new strategy not to lose it in such a foolish manner I was fine. Losing my dog of 11 years that we raised from a puppy...that was mental anguish. People getting that upset over internet space ships is not good. And, again, I'm not joking or making fun of these people. Perhaps they should seek help.

And still on a serious note, because you keep harping on this, I don't think the game should be structured around players whose priorities are out of balance like in the previous paragraph. Instead of disrupting the game that tens of thousands enjoy as it currently is in favor or drastic changes for a distinct minority... that is not balanced. A better solution is to get help to those players that become enraged by losing something that really doesn't exist and actually wasn't theirs.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online