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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Nullification and Interdiction

First post First post First post
Author
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#221 - 2017-02-08 08:08:05 UTC
Timer for anchorable bubbles should be 6 hours maximum. I saw few days timers propositions, which won't solve anything.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#222 - 2017-02-08 09:49:08 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Timer for anchorable bubbles should be 6 hours maximum. I saw few days timers propositions, which won't solve anything.


I'm against putting a timer on for the selfish reason of I like to steal these bubbles and use them myself. Honestly an unmanned bubble is not hard to kill off and simply having it provide a killmail will be all the incentive required for people to blap it.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#223 - 2017-02-08 10:10:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
I'm against putting a timer on for the selfish reason of I like to steal these bubbles and use them myself.

Hackable bubbles would be fun, but timer is a must, more active gameplay we need. Also would be good for the structures market.
baltec1 wrote:
...simply having it provide a killmail will be all the incentive required for people to blap it.

this would be incentive to shoot mobile structure? People are strange sometimes when it comes to killmails.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

FeyPrince
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#224 - 2017-02-08 10:13:02 UTC
Ready for some really radical Ideas?

In a world of Interdiction, there needs to be nullification, otherwise there will be no counter to them. The two are intertwined, elsewise you'll end up with only having giant bubble laden slugfests in null. or citadels with a hundred bubbles around them keeping anyone from attacking during repair timers etc. If there is no way to counter it, people will find every way to abuse it.

That being said, I'd say the arguments for and against nullification and interdiction boil down to a frustration. Either you're frustrated you can't kill them, or you're frustrated they can kill you. it seems most people argue against the side they aren't on. Here's some proposals:

Combat ships:
Interceptors- I'd agree with the idea of a tackle inty that is nullified and a combat inty that isn't but stronger in combat. Yes there should be travel ceptors, you can smartbomb them if you really don't like them, or maybe a hictor can script to stop nullfied warping around him. I think that's a good idea.

T3s- Not really my area of expertise but I feel the ships are sluggish enough when taking gates that unless covops fit you could take them there, if covops fit they serve a great role of hunters and killers or scouts or hackers

Hictors/Dictors- These ships are the bane of many ships in the game, adding interceptors and nullified T3s to this list with specialized equipment may be a good or bad thing, but its a good idea

Non-Combat
I really don't think it needs to be on many noncombat ships in fact I'd like specifically to talk about the Blockade Runner. I think the ship should double down on its blockade running abilities (to not be completely overshadowed by Jump Freighters) but i don't think that should be done with nullification, instead I propose allowing BRs to run prop mods (or maybe just afterburners) while cloaked as a way to outrun the blockades. I think it'd make for a more engaging gameplay but still advantage the BR

Anchorables
This is what I'd really like to talk about here. Many people are complaining about anchorable bubbles and want them to "decay." I'd like to see an awesome new system of anchorable bubbles rather than "I hate you guys who just put up blockades you make it not easy for free miner kills." I think blockading should be more meaningful and purposeful and also more intractable between both attackers and defenders. I propose 3 different types of deployables to replace the current ones which seem to be more skill and price point locked than anything (why use anything other than smalls and Large tech IIs?) Based on what i see the common uses for deployable bubbles to be:

-Small deployable for gate camps.
Works very much like current Bubbles small medium bubbles, but has a one hour expiration timer (visible to the deployer so he knows when to save it) Designed to be dropped by a group of destoyers or campers to form gate/pipe camps (could come in Tech II flavors that stop cloaks or nullification if need be)

-Large Blockade Units.
These would be in place on the current uses for large T2 bubbles namely blockading away systems. Instead of bubblefucking a gate with 5-40 bubbles, you could deploy one of these on a gate (it only anchors when within so much of a gate and attaches to it) and it provides a large bubble around the gate (maybe 40-100km of the gate). Once deployed it takes an takes an anchor time then can be turned on to blockade away a gate. This object doesn't decay but instead consumes some sort of fuel (probably an ice product, LO or Stront or Heavy water or something) to stay up and running with its bubble. The defender needs to fuel it to keep it up and running, and the owners can turn it on and off at will (probably a 10 min timer between switching it again). For attackers you can ingore and burn through it, or you can shoot it. If you deal damage to it (probably about the same HP as a single Large bubble) you knock down its shields, the bubble turns off and the Blockade unit enters a reinforcement period for about 10-15 mins. The attackers than then continue on or they can wait around/come back and the Blockade unit starts a repair cycle (which could be sped up by entosising it or repping it or something) in which the attackers can shoot it again to destroy it permanently. The point of this being you can establish and take away system control through blockades (you can even blockade others into their own systems if you want)

-There should probably be a medium sized deployable to anchor on structures/undocks if there is still a need for the hellcamping tactic to be accomplishable in eve in an offensive role. I think this can be solved with a smaller tempory version of the blockade unit which can be attached to enemy structures. But citadels have too many teeth and they'd just kill it unless it was not targetable by citadels. Food for thought at least

All that being said I think alot of the real problem cases with the mechanics are mostly edge case scenarios and instead of putting the blame on what can be a fun and engaging game of using interdiction (and conversely countering with the limited selection of nullified ships) creatively and purposefully.

Thanks for listening to my ideas, and my thoughts

Tl:dr Most of the mechanics are fine but some QoL and elimination of edge cases should happen. Also I have an idea for a cool new deployable to replace hellbubbled gates with an engaging gameplay for both sides
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#225 - 2017-02-08 16:42:24 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

this would be incentive to shoot mobile structure? People are strange sometimes when it comes to killmails.


You will be amazed at how often people track down tractor units to whack em.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#226 - 2017-02-08 17:31:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

this would be incentive to shoot mobile structure? People are strange sometimes when it comes to killmails.


You will be amazed at how often people track down tractor units to whack em.

Confirming that this is a thing. I do it more for the pissed-off reactions, suspect-baiting, and occasional loot drops than the killmails, but the killmails certainly don't hurt my motivation.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2017-02-11 06:05:32 UTC
In response to the 3 suggested questions by Steve:



Should you be able to have nullified combat ships? Why, or why not?


Yes. This is a space game, and makes sense to have both ships that can interdict and YOLO McSwaggins to interdiction. There should also be a wider degree of interdiction. A theoretical example could be a capital interdictor, similar to the interdictor class star destroyer, with an siege mode and scramming warp bubble with a smaller range or a huge disrupting warp bubble or some such. Or you could be boring and make another script for the HIC. *insert arguments about gatecamping here* Obviously there is a fair bit of work that would need to be done on balance, but it diversifying capitals would certainly be a welcome addition(acknowledging that we just got the fax models not so long ago).





How about non-combat ships? Shuttles? Blockade runners? Yachts?


Yes. I'm all for a more diverse Eve. Not just specifically about interdiction either. Racing corvettes man. Fancy Yachts to sit on the Jita undock and laugh at the poors in Gnosisisisis. Why? Because why not! But yes, T2 shuttles sharing either the inty nullification or the blockade runner tanking/warp core bonuses? Sign me up.



Should anchorable bubbles exist? Should they decay if they exist?


They should exist. They should require some fuel though. Whether it be stront or generic isotopes or chewing on tritanium. If they run out of fuel, then they should start decaying.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

GROUND XERO
I n e r t i a
#228 - 2017-02-13 08:38:01 UTC
We don´t need extra nullified ships!!!

So pls do not even think about bringing more in!!!

T3 should get a greater punishment for using the subsystem!


Fuel for bubbles might be an idea but than again ...NO! .... they are working fine like they are so why changing em?

Bubble hell gates are in game for a long time now and before there wasen´t even one ship immune to the effect!

Yacht is a pain in the ass! I set Fozzi -10 when this came into game ....(from -5 for inties!)... Big smile

NCPL (Necromonger of new Eden) will make EVE great again!

Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#229 - 2017-02-14 07:41:15 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Should you be able to have nullified combat ships? Why, or why not?

strategic cruisers already are. I find it hard to believe that there is any point to giving that feature to any other ships.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
How about non-combat ships? Shuttles? Blockade runners? Yachts?

if you want to see people stop using ceptors as shuttles, sure.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
Should anchorable bubbles exist? Should they decay if they exist?

as a wormhole dweller, I have seen way too many bubble deployables left out in the middle of nowhere, littering many systems. they have to be cleaned up at some point.
Dmitrij Zhukov
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#230 - 2017-02-17 11:30:20 UTC
I agree with Predator Ace. On my think its very bad idea to delete nullified coops ships. I am (probably same like Predator Ace), are solo null-sec player, and t3 covert nullified tengu give me a chance to live in null-sec in solo, without any corporation. If you delete those ships, you will kill solo life in null-sec.
Alaric Arminius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2017-02-17 11:36:39 UTC
Hi all!
Should you be able to have nullified combat ships? Why, or why not?
Yes ! Why ? Because i am personnel now learning skills for t3 nullified tengu, and as soon as i learn i will be able to do DED sites in null sec in solo. Without those t3 covops nullified ship, it will be impossible for me.

How about non-combat ships? Shuttles? Blockade runners? Yachts?
Yes, there is also should be covops nullified ships to do some logistic stuff in null-sec.

Should anchorable bubbles exist? Should they decay if they exist?
yes thay should exist. I am not sure if thay should have decay, but for now bubbles seems ok, probably old players think different about bubbles, but on my opinion bubbles and t3 nullified covops ships are good now.
And also t3 covops nullified ships its only one possible way to avoide bubbles and gate camps in null-sec, on my think.
Wasted Noon
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#232 - 2017-02-18 01:08:41 UTC
I see problem not with some ships being immune to bubbles and related, but rather insta align ships. Struggling against server tick, and not against another player is broken game play. .

In addition, its time to end the align -cloak-microwarp trick.
Roamer Jakuard
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2017-02-18 13:44:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Roamer Jakuard
I'm relatively new (been playing a little over a year), but wanted to add to this particular discussion.

Regarding Anchored Bubbles:
It seems to me that the problem is with having too many such bubbles. So I think that one bubble should last until destroyed. But with every additional bubble added within a certain distance, they interfere with each other and gradually damage each other. This would mean that the more bubbles there are in proximity to each other, the less time they would last. You could even have a cool effect like lightning strikes between bubble generators to represent this (a lightning storm in space). Just my two cents.

Regarding Interdiction Nullified:
I am biased towards interceptors keeping this ability, especially since it's really the only thing that makes them worthwhile compared to faction and pirate frigates. "Insta-warping" interceptors are not uncatchable. Having looked through killmails, I've seen them die to both smart bombing battleships and fast locking gate camps. Given the role of interceptors, it seems right to me that you may need a dedicated battle ship or another boosted interceptor to deal with them. Looking at camps in Doril for instance, they seem to have a camp on the gate to lowsec to catch the bigger/slower stuff, and battleships on at least the other main travel gate to kill the little fast stuff. Games are always going to have limitations due to basic mechanics of servers. So for those who say that it is unfair that interceptors can have a good chance to escape a gate camp in null, I can only point out that they aren't doing anything that almost any frigate can do in lowsec. Interceptors (even the combat ones) are hardly powerful ships. And if fielded in numbers, there are easy answers to them. Also, I live in Australia, so suffer from lag. It's nice to have a ship that doesn't penalise me for where I live. So don't talk to me about what's fair. I can't comment on T3 cruisers, since I have no experience with them.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#234 - 2017-02-18 17:42:19 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dmitrij Zhukov wrote:
I agree with Predator Ace. On my think its very bad idea to delete nullified coops ships. I am (probably same like Predator Ace), are solo null-sec player, and t3 covert nullified tengu give me a chance to live in null-sec in solo, without any corporation. If you delete those ships, you will kill solo life in null-sec.


Rubbish, you will get along just fine. The only change would be that it would be possible to catch you but still hard to do.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#235 - 2017-02-22 10:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
I lot of people especially big alliance people take a pop at Strategic Cruisers having the ability to be covert cloaked and nullified, however removing this from a ship which is gimped when fitted this way and enables smaller groups or players to move things around without being an easy kill is really important to those small groups and solo players and is a very bad move.

At the moment the bigger alliances just drop Citadels, cyno to them and move a slight amount and they are safe, this means that they have a really easy and safe way to move capitals, I happen to agree with this, but the smaller groups cannot put up citadels all over the map to create the same logistics networks, so they use T3C's as scouts for BR's and take small expensive items in cloaked and nullified T3C's. and often via WH space.

Removing this ability to T3C's would be yet another massive kick in the teeth to smaller groups and further entrench the big alliances.

I sometimes see T3C's getting caught by gate camps, to be blunt the more people you have on the gate camp the more chance you have, I have had some very close calls jumping into gate camps with a lot of people.

As far as I am concerned the ideas on bubbles are great, the T3C's are working quite well now in terms of balance and this cloaked and nullified ability is something that is already balanced by having gimped fittings in return.


EDIT: And let me be blunt, the reason you don't see bubble gate camps all over the place is because there is a counter in terms of interceptors and T3C's, if I was whispering in CCP's ear I would make Blockade Runners nullified too.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Predator Ace
S0utherN Comfort
#236 - 2017-02-22 11:17:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Predator Ace
Dracvlad, I agree with you. All this situation looks like big nullsec alliances try to prove that covops nullified t3s and other nullified ships should be removed from the game. Because nullified covops ships are pain in ass for big nullsec aliances, and thay actually feel pain when small t3 groups of players or solo players go throught their space, and for example PL`s cant catch those nullified ships. So big nullsec alliances think like "Hey, why dont to implement someone to CSM, or implement idea, to remove thise nullified ships from the game ? No-nullified ships --> no pain for big nullsec alliances ---> big alliances absolutly dominate in nullsec---> solo life/small groups of players life die in null sec"
Also, yes, i think blockade runners need to be nullified.
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#237 - 2017-02-23 11:45:26 UTC
Oh yeah bubbles works great....
BuBBles, BubblEs everywhere

more bubbles!
Naye Nathaniel
COBRA INC
Seventh Sanctum.
#238 - 2017-02-24 11:05:44 UTC
Predator Ace wrote:
Dracvlad, I agree with you.(...)
Also, yes, i think blockade runners need to be nullified.

Love your idea!
ImYourMom
Retribution Holdings Corp
Retribution.
#239 - 2017-02-24 12:17:15 UTC
they should be removed full stop, drag bubbles are stupid, you want to camp use a interdictor ship, simple
Aka Evil
Localhost.LL.c..
#240 - 2017-02-28 02:39:58 UTC
The number 1 reason i see that EvE has continued to be a top notch game for ALL playstyles across the gamer universe, is this...

for every action there is a equal and possible counter measure.

that being said, nullification currently lacks a counter, and so do un-manned bubbles (if you eliminated nullified incterceptors... which needs to happen).

For unmanned bubbles, going to a timer seems to be the obvious fit. T3 cruisers with nullification is not horrible, insta lock, dead. For nullified interceptors , currently, there is little to nothing you can do short of setting up your computer with gold lined connections outside the building where ccp's servers are so you can get the perfect tick timer... much like some crooks on wallstreet and jita try make .001 isk on the fractions of information exchange rates.

Interceptors are BROKEN. PERIOD.

there needs to be a counter. be it a script in a heavy dictor buble or whatever. .

having a ship impossible to catch unless you have near perfect internet connection on a good day, while its laggy as hell for this guy running around un-catchable needs a counter, simple as that.

make bubbles timers, but make insta warp frigates lockable and killable ... its what 1-2 month training for an interceptor. should be simple skill chain to catch them, but something not common, and dedicated to catching them.


for anyone that says that breaks the game, and then i cant tackle things... you arent trying hard enough or skilled enough...

i have ran through bubbles in blockade runners that should have died to 20 man gate camps , only to set-up in their territory more times than i have ever been caught doing it..

Easy "i win" buttons, do not become the eve i have come to respect over the years.