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Nullification and Interdiction

First post First post First post
Author
Rilly Dagons
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#201 - 2017-02-04 23:37:09 UTC
Combat ships
I don't think there is anything particularly problematic about the current nullification of combat ships. Although I can see valid arguments for Interceptors being split into two more defined roles one being nullified the other not.

T3 cruisers I think the main problem here is not the nullification/covert ops itself but the ability to change subsystems in open space either by depot or ship maintenance fitting. Subsystem changes should be limited to docked locations or pos, with the looser restrictions on anchoring and general increase in availability of citadel type structures this is not as limiting as it used to be.

For the non combat ships
Shuttle has a valid place as a nullified ship but it needs to be a tech II variant to distinguish if from the basic model that every rookie flies when they first get into space, thus keeping the cheap and basic nature of the shuttle for 'safe' space while giving the option for a more advanced version for more dangerous areas.

Blockade runner doesn't need nullification it's cloaking and speed provide adequate mechanisms to counter bubbles, and avoid camps depending on pilots skill/luck.
I'd be more inclined to put nullification on the DST increasing it's ability to move through space but still keeping it's basic vulnerability to manned gate camps.

Bubbles
They do need to have a limited function time but I don't necessarily think they need to be one use structures more along the lines of a pos tower where it only generates a bubble while fuelled otherwise it just sits and does nothing possibly having the shield layer tied to the bubble effect so that when it is offline only the more vulnerable armour and hull are active making them a lot easier to destroy.

Taking an Idea I saw earlier in the thread it would be interesting to have a small citadel structure class that has a single highslot and a fuel bay with no docking or tethering but simply providing a basic structure that can be fitted for multiple purposes. The main difference between this and the single use deployables being the option for it to be a corp rather than a personal asset.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#202 - 2017-02-05 01:18:14 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

No, direct counter to bubbles are nullified subsystems. Covops cloaks are counter to instalocking hulls. It's not the same, and having covop cloak only within bubble and under the good gatecamp gave you low chance of passing through. Been there, done that. Null shouldn't be safe of trespassers. ISK is just stupid there.


And trespassers should not have impossible to stop ships. Cov ops alone is powerful for cruisers, adding nullification makes it overpowered.

Jeremiah Saken wrote:


Problem with devs is that they don't know what the role hull have between classes for example destroyers-cruisers. Good example are T3D. What role have that ships? Better than any frigates and very good compared to cruisers. Same is with T3C.



All the T3 ships are horribly overpowered.
Aaril
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2017-02-05 01:57:17 UTC
One of the great aspects of this game, even if it is sometimes frustrating, is there is a counter to pretty much all game mechanics. I am fine with interdiction the way it is.

I would probably be fine with BR getting interdiction as well.
Ajem Hinken
WarFear Gaming
#204 - 2017-02-05 02:36:18 UTC
I'd think that if the bubbles were to decay, it'd have to be based upon capacitor. The bubbles slowly lose cap until their cap goes empty and the bubble turns off. Then they slowly fall apart. (Call it a lack of an internal stability field or whatever) Then, if you're there to guard it, you can just lengthen the lifespan of them by transmitting cap to them.

I don't have extensive experience with these, but after a little research those are my thoughts.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6875494#post6875494 - Ship mounted explosives. Because explosions and Jita chaos.

Eustise
Perkone
Caldari State
#205 - 2017-02-05 04:42:36 UTC
Let me put my 2 cents here.

Nullified T3C's without the Covops can be considered.. too dangerous, given the other availible configuration options. But in the usual configuration of nullified/covops it's used for explo/scouting, and as that role it's perfectly fine, IF maybe it could use a decrease in maneuvrability to still be succeptible to decloaking in a timely fashion.

But really, there are ways of doing explo content that can only be done with a T3C, and also the modularity of it is great to propagate a unique nomad playstyle seeing as you could carry an extra fit. Also good content.

Ceptors? I they should keep it. They're the prime tackle for carriers deep in bubblefucked territory and should remain so. Given the discussion is more global, adding nullification to shuttles and removing it from ceptors is a great compromise as LONG as bubbles get a short timer, under 24h. Something that upkeeping would make it a huge headache.

Yachts... depends only if CCP plan on making them more widely availible. Currently in wormhole space they're used as the ultimate DANGERZONE rollers, and almost impossible to catch, but if changes are made to T3Cs and ceptors, i guess a limited edition ship that can still cover the role of a very hard to catch MIllenium Falcon would still be fine.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2017-02-05 08:37:49 UTC
Pandemic Legion is crying from what I am seeing and gathering from various folks. You got an Industrial Corp who has little PVP experience staring down the perverbial barrel of a 45 with PL holding it. Large alliance that has many PVP pilots looking for cheap easy kills and expect those in smaller groups to roll over and bare their throats so that PL and its people would be able to enjoy easy kills.

Now that a Industrial corp stood up with a defense trying to protect its assets and be able to produce ships and what nots for the alliance they are part of barely able to stand up to capital fleet.

MOA & Brave 258 Ferox and a few battleships facing off 128 PL, PH, Circle of Two Battle ship dreads, carriers, and faxes.

Pretty obvious the odds were not in favor of the home team but instead got beaten. All that PL and company wanted was to kill the Sotiyo and wanted it to be easy. Instead the home team made it challenging. Resulting with an unkown side affect of older less power PCs lagging. I showed up in the system to watch and wondered why people were crying about the lag since i had none.

If the bubbles are hit with a "re-Balance" I hope that all combat ships lose their interdiction nullify ability except for the interceptors and that ALL non combative ships gain the immunity to warp nullification.

These bubbles have been around for a decade and a few years. deal with it and get a MWD.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#207 - 2017-02-05 11:37:55 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
Pandemic Legion is crying from what I am seeing and gathering from various folks. You got an Industrial Corp who has little PVP experience staring down the perverbial barrel of a 45 with PL holding it. Large alliance that has many PVP pilots looking for cheap easy kills and expect those in smaller groups to roll over and bare their throats so that PL and its people would be able to enjoy easy kills.

Now that a Industrial corp stood up with a defense trying to protect its assets and be able to produce ships and what nots for the alliance they are part of barely able to stand up to capital fleet.

MOA & Brave 258 Ferox and a few battleships facing off 128 PL, PH, Circle of Two Battle ship dreads, carriers, and faxes.

Pretty obvious the odds were not in favor of the home team but instead got beaten. All that PL and company wanted was to kill the Sotiyo and wanted it to be easy. Instead the home team made it challenging. Resulting with an unkown side affect of older less power PCs lagging. I showed up in the system to watch and wondered why people were crying about the lag since i had none.

If the bubbles are hit with a "re-Balance" I hope that all combat ships lose their interdiction nullify ability except for the interceptors and that ALL non combative ships gain the immunity to warp nullification.

These bubbles have been around for a decade and a few years. deal with it and get a MWD.


Its not PL wanting to nerf bubbles, I only just a few pages ago said bubbles are fine but should probably generate a killmail.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#208 - 2017-02-05 11:43:49 UTC
i got no issuie if they give a kill mail.
Would be awesome if they did
Elithiel en Gravonere
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#209 - 2017-02-05 15:06:39 UTC
As someone who uses all these ships to move about enemy space very often, (all interdictor nullified ships), there is actually a counter for each of these ships although it isn't a cloaky sabre. For interceptors its the smart bombing battleship, for blockade runners (which aren't nullified) it actually is the bubble that'll catch them. For T3C's its the slower align time (being a cruiser), for Yachts, its the same issue. All these ships currently have an in game counter.

As someone on the other side of the world (Australia) that has to deal with the very slow communication with your servers in London, these ships are pretty much the only thing that would save me from your insta locking svipuls. It still very much is the case, even with that having been nerfed. Someone in London can always lock you faster in any other ship and you'll just die.

During the Casino war I'd see gates bubbled to high heaven. I'd see citadels sit just under a warp path with hundreds of large bubbles blocking the path. If you dared warp along that line in anything other than an interceptor or other nullified ship, you'd be dead as the citadel guns would be in range and blap you dead.

Bubble camps do catch ships everyday. pipe bombs do as well. cloaky hunters will sit in a bubble waiting for stragglers.

So I'm not in favour of changing the status quo.

About the only thing I would change, is the Blockade runner, its largely a lowsec used ship. About the only time i use it in nullsec fully is when I get shot via a black ops battleship 10 systems ahead or something. It would be nice if it could get some kind of nullified option that is traded off for breaking cloak when activated. Just a thought I had to see more use of this ship in nullsec.

As for bubbles, I don't think they should decay over time, I think they should have their EHP halved though, so that they're much easier to pop. Give them no more than 10000 EHP for the biggest ones (not 30K like now).
Predator Ace
S0utherN Comfort
#210 - 2017-02-05 18:11:46 UTC
So, excuse me, but in general, its stupid idea to remove nullified ships. Because if you do this, you kill a solo players in null sec(and solo live in null sec at all). And you give a huge advantage to alliances who live in null sec, they will camp and bubble everything, and you even will not have a chance to go throught those camps, because without nullified ship, you will die in the first camp in null sec.
Its actually seems like PL`s pay you to prove thing that you should delete nullified ships from the game, cuz PL`s feel pain when some neutral nullified ship are goes throught theirs bubbled camps.
______________
About bubbles, i think bubbles are good now, dont see the reason to change bubble mechanics. Bubbles should be in null sec, because null sec its not a low sec.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#211 - 2017-02-05 19:19:27 UTC
Predator Ace wrote:
So, excuse me, but in general, its stupid idea to remove nullified ships. Because if you do this, you kill a solo players in null sec(and solo live in null sec at all). And you give a huge advantage to alliances who live in null sec, they will camp and bubble everything, and you even will not have a chance to go throught those camps, because without nullified ship, you will die in the first camp in null sec.
Its actually seems like PL`s pay you to prove thing that you should delete nullified ships from the game, cuz PL`s feel pain when some neutral nullified ship are goes throught theirs bubbled camps.


Everyone managed just fine before cloaky nullified ships were added. Frankly, its more likely its our cloaky nullified ships running around in your space so any nerf hits us just as hard.

Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#212 - 2017-02-05 20:55:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Everyone managed just fine before cloaky nullified ships were added...

and now we got mobile disruptors bloting out the gates.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#213 - 2017-02-05 22:18:59 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:

and now we got mobile disruptors bloting out the gates.


We did before.
Sboycole
Doomheim
#214 - 2017-02-06 14:18:31 UTC
I've run both nullified, and non nullified ships through null, yes it's a pain on occasion, but at the same time, decaying bubbles would be nice, as would an anchor distance restriction from other bubbles, if bubbles could be anchored far enough that a warp stab, for example, could be used as a counter for a bubble, I'd say nullified ships would lose their benefit in the first place, at least for unmanned bubbles. So argument could be made both ways, personally i'd say either a 12 hour decay or anchor distance restrictions so they couldn't overlap would be a sufficient reason to be able to argue for the removal of nullified ships.
Shinji Katsuragi
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#215 - 2017-02-06 15:46:01 UTC
Nullified T3/bubble relationship is ok currently and should be left as is. Adding nullification to non-combat ships like shuttles, yachts, blockade runners would be great, though(shuttles and blockade runners especially. Blockade runners especially, after all, they ARE named blockade runners, not blockade sitters). Bubbles do need to be nerfed on ehp and have distance restrictions, same as structures.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#216 - 2017-02-06 19:17:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Should you be able to have nullified combat ships? Why, or why not?

Yes to an extent.

Bubble-immune 'Ceptors make sense because of their role and because of their generally limited combat capability.

I don't have a problem with T3s having a nullification subsystem, but I do feel that fitting a nullification subsystem should have more of a detrimental impact on a T3's combat ability. I would also be in favor of preventing T3s from mounting both a nullification subsystem and a CovOps subsystem at the same time: CovOps cloak or bubble-immunity, not both at the same time.

No other combat ships should be bubble-immune unless new ships are released with very specialized roles where it makes sense.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
How about non-combat ships? Shuttles? Blockade runners? Yachts?

Again, yes to an extent.

T1 bubble-immune shuttles I think would be overkill, but maybe a T2 shuttle variant that is bubble-immune could have a role.

Bubble-immunity makes sense for Blockade Runners from a role standpoint, but I feel like that would be overpowered with their CovOps cloak. (See my above comments about T3s.)

The Yachts are relatively rare, limited editions ships with no significant combat or hauling ability, so I say they're fine as-is.

Again, I don't think any other non-combat ships should be bubble-immune unless new ships are released with very specialized roles where it makes sense.

Steve Ronuken wrote:
Should anchorable bubbles exist? Should they decay if they exist?

I'm all in favor of them existing, but I do feel that the general shift away from automatic to manned defenses (i.e. POSes vs Citadels) could call for a change. A straight-up decay timer like other anchorables seems a bit harsh, so maybe give them a limited fuel requirement so that if someone wanted to anchor a bubble permanently they would have to refuel it periodically. I think they're fine as they are though and would only favor this change as part of a shifting defensive paradigm.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#217 - 2017-02-07 10:46:36 UTC
Shinji Katsuragi wrote:
Blockade runners especially, after all, they ARE named blockade runners, not blockade sitters).


Again I point out that if you do this it would be impossible to catch a blockade runner.
FeMalogalotalotim
Renegade Stars
Stellae Renascitur
#218 - 2017-02-07 13:27:18 UTC
Quote:
Should you be able to have nullified combat ships? Why, or why not?

Yes ofcourse. If the T3 cruiser have skill points penalty on death then it should have more bonuses and options.


Quote:
How about non-combat ships? Shuttles? Blockade runners? Yachts?

Keep as is now. No need to change.

Quote:
Should anchorable bubbles exist? Should they decay if they exist?

Add cargo into the bubbles deppend on the size. Then put strontium (or something else inside) which gives "fuel" to the bubble. 1 Unit "stront/whatever" = 1h time. Size of bubbles means more space, i.e. more time anchored. And if u dont put more fuel then it stop working.
Tzun Solette
Doomheim
#219 - 2017-02-07 15:15:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Tzun Solette
As an Omega pilot, paying customer, a solo player and someone who recently moved from lowsec to nullsec I think that there is a real problem with bubbles, gatecamps and players exploiting current mechanics to get lots of easy kills. Last few times I lost my ships it was due to gatecamps where I was tackled before my game even loaded 100 bubbles the campers placed there to cause lag and exploit the mechanics. Also the gatecampers use ships that lock you in a second or two and spam the area with drones to exploit the cloak mechanics and decloak everythink. Other than that, the big problem are gatecamps like Tama where 10 campers spam some targeting scripts/macros that insta lock anyone warping through that gate before he can even notice em and warp out.

I'd suggest:

- Making warp bubbles decay over 24 hours. Therefore they need to be replaced every now and then. Hopefully they will become more costly and would prevent that massive lag.
- Making warp bubbles unstackable on each other. They should be placed at least 5km apart from any other bubble and structures and warp gates.
- Lowering warp bubbles hit points so that people who fly smaller ships (like exploration frigates) can also destroy them if the bubbles aren't protected (I was often alone in a system and still couldn't get rid of those lag causing bubbles). 30k ehp when the owner is within 100km and 3k ehp when the owner isn't around seems like a good idea.
- Giving kill mail for warp bubbles - so "elite pvpers" who spam them are also risking their reputation if they can't defend their own structures (which isn't a problem for them when they are around due to 30k ehp, but is when they aren't and just spam bubbles everywhere due to 3k ehp).
- Adding a minimum targeting timer of around 3 seconds so campers can still catch careless players but people in fast ships, who pay attention won't die to some lag on their end or gatecampers abusing insta lock mechanics leaving their victims helpless no matter what they fly or how much attention they pay.
- Making that only other ships withing 2km decloak your ship - so drones/cans won't be spammed and exploited and won't be causing lag.
- Adding more modules that make you immune to warp bubbles that can fit on any ship.

Also many times I lost a ship it was due to players waiting in a warp bubble in the exact position where I'll end my warp. Then they insta decloak me and destroy my ship before I can even notice that the warp is over and the gate is still 400km away.

That forces people to make so called PINGS - savespots near some gates that are far away from other celestials, so they don't warp in a straight line between two gates. That's a totally redundant mechanics - in order to make some PINGS you need to spend a lot of time and spam warp/stop till your capacitor is empty and repeat till you are near that gate. It just takes time and punishes players who can't be playing 24/7 due to real life obligations.

Therefore I suggest:

- Add an option to warp more than 100km away from the target.
- Add an option to not warp in a straight line between your position and the target but curve at the end and approach the gate from some other angle/side- just like you warp from gate to PING and then warp again to a 2nd gate, but without wasting players time and annoying them.

tl;dr

Current mechanics are exploited by gatecampers who can't really pvp but abuse to get some easy killmails on more casual players who can't play eve 24/7. There is no skill involved and no risk on the gatecampers end. That needs to be changed or Eve will lose even more players.

I'll vote for anyone who can fix this situation.
Old Pervert
Perkone
Caldari State
#220 - 2017-02-07 16:05:23 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Interdiction should be manned IMO. Anchored bubble are fine if you keep a presence around them. I don't know how it should be made to work in game but but the bubble should deactivate when nobody "guard" it. The only bubbles that should remain active when there is no one around are the interdictor ones since they are temporary anyway.


This would solve 99% of the bubble cancer in Eve. I would say a 15 minute timer from the time you're more than twice the bubble range away from it.

That way you can anchor it and use it to create an ambush, but it won't stick around forever and it won't give the rest of us cancer every time we jump through a bubblefucked system.